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overthewing
My thoughts too ran along these lines, as the "survivable space" in nose doesn't appear to have been compromised. All I can say is that it looks like the ac landed with a very high ROD (there is little to show of a ground slide), and struck the ground pitched very nose high, and that whilst the tail absorbed some of the force, the next part to strike the ground would have been the main uc. This would also have absorbed some more of the impact energy but also caused the ac to pitch down (rotate downwards). The nose was effectively at the furthest distance (moment) from the centre of rotation and when it hit the ground vertical g (deceleration) would have been too great for even a properly restrained human being to survive.
Those pax in the cabin, closest to the mainplane, would stand the greatest chance of survival. Crew and pax at the tail and cockpit would have been at greatest risk. Crash-worthy seats which "stroke" in a vertical axis might have made a difference to the flight deck crew's chances of surviving - it all depends on how great the peak forces were and how long was their duration. MB |
The perished crew members remain in the cockpit until the seating positions (who was sitting where) and the switch positions (was this turned off or on or what was the throttle position?) can be verified and recorded for the investigation.
It's unlikely that the majority of some of the switches levers would move even on a major impact, as they are generally gated??? Not a 737 pilot but I guess this would be the case. I would guess the investigators will look quickly at the cockpit to allow removal of the deceased. Nice to see Sky had a decent 'expert' on earlier, but the talking head still managed to make an arse out of her interview. (ie, the crew won't be able to give a factual report of the crash now will they!!!) Where do they get these numpties? |
crew fatalities
The loss of the 3 FD crew and 6 other SOB losses are sad, but the investigation will centre on why the aircraft crashed first and foremost. The fatalities are results of the crash, and lessons will be learnt there to improve safety in other ways, but first and foremost the question is 'why did it crash' - let's stick to that
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Come on fellas, one or two of you need to relax and take your head out of your ass. Nobody has a definitive answer until the report comes out, and the title of this website should give you a clue about inevitable speculation. People have always and will always speculate. Unfortunately some have no idea, gobbing off every five minutes doesn't help, just move on to the next post, it's not hard. :ugh: |
Why would they leave the dead bodies of the flight crew in their seats? Ive never heard of this before. It was some what chilling to see some of the emergency services peering through the windows of the flight deck looking at the dead bodies. Also 3 crew? Training? Line check? Where all 3 people in the flight deck crew or was the person on the jump seat someone else?? As already stated by a member, there is a number of reasons why there were 3 on the flight deck, Training, FO or captain getting a ride, Cabin crew.....who knows, not us thats for sure. Also, the injuries incurred would be unpleasent to say the least, ranging from Spinal compression, Massive trauma to the organs and extensive open fractures. What makes the situation worse is the fact that no emergency was declared in the cabin (apparently) resulting in further injury than normal. It's a miracle anyone has survived this to be honest. You only need to look at the Trident incident out of LHR to show these sort of impacts normally result in total loss of life. EDIT If you look at the High res images of the wreckage, you can see where the inner frame of the plane has become disjointed in the impact (Look through the windows and you can see how distorted the PAX area is...Although from the outside the plane looks relatively intact, it looks a very different picture inside. |
Apologies for the ghoulishness of this question, but could someone explain what's likely to have killed the flightdeck crew? |
SOB
What's with this calling people SOBs?
Rather unfortunate abbreviation for the people on board (POB) in this context, even if they're in a unlucky situation. Or is it refering to an all-fish cargo aircraft load? I wonder if you can fill a whole aircraft with soles. I prefer tuna in any case. It's POB or total on board. Take care of your soul in church. |
My closest friend who is still a flight attendant, was on board a similar crash in Spain, involving an Aviaco DC-9. It has brought her sad images. In that event, nobody was killed, and the plane was split in several parts too.
Accident Database: Accident Synopsis 03301992 |
Sob / Pob
My apologies.
It was a slip of the keystroke - thinking Souls on Board - I guess it's an old term and doesn't really relate to POB - my mistake - hands up - sorry - sorry - sorry Does it help us understand why a presumably fully serviceable, correctly fuelled, professionally 'driven' 738 flew all the way from IST to land short by 500M and losing 9 of the 138 POBs in the process. :\ |
Local media reports this was a training flight, that would explain the 3 pilots in the cockpit. Some airlines carry a extra safety pilot until the trainee has reached a certain proficency level, normally when he/she is considered to be able to safely land the aircraft alone if the instructor should get incapacitated.
It doesn't indicate an inexperienced trainee pilot, only that he/she was new to this particular aircraft. |
OK Capt. I am up to pg 14 carefully reading these contributions. Were I a mod, I would have begun the delete button with the individual who speculated on what MIGHT have been the case if the plane had been an airbus.
But were I a mod, at least three quarters of YOUR so-called contributions since that point would also be in the garbage where they belong. You really do not project the professionalism of a Sully in your emotional and often inaccurate petulance. Edit - sadly the quote feature did not work. It was basically another "here they go again" whine by a 'professional' who has been clogging the pages up with chaff for the past four pages. My point certainly loses impact when the offending post does not appear where I had thought it would be. |
Just a question! A loooong ways back someone replied that a 757 was ahead of the 737 on approach! I remember being behind one a few years back in an A310 which gave us quite a start? Maybe wake turbulence could be a factor?
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SOB
It was my understanding that Souls on Board was a fairly common term used to identify people on board an aircraft. Is this no longer the case?
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It doesn't indicate an inexperienced trainee pilot, only that he/she was new to this particular aircraft. |
wake turbulence
I could understand this post if it were an A319 following at B777 heavy, but a 738 and 752 are about 20,000kgs different in the max landing wt. With correct separation it is not an issue.
The post I read that mentioned this also went on to say that it could not be confirmed if the preceding 752 was on the same approach / rwy as the 738 and so is pure conjecture |
About forum participants' unverified qualifications . . .
Numerous posters have suggested that member qualifications should be verified and approved to preclude non professional responses on technical subjects. But it's most dubious that any average, reasonable person would fork over his identity and credentials on an anonymous internet blog just to post his questions or opinions.
For those who have an aviation background it is easy to separate and ignore the driftwood from valid statements. Because on any blog there's always an element of entertainment: Persons who claim to be aviation professionals may be plumbers, morticians, musicians or housewives. So what? The network has a disqualifier statement on every page: "As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions." The Journos can read that too, no? :rolleyes: |
SOB
Hi Marsh Hawk. Yeah, SOB is still used and so is POB.
I think it might just be reflective of the politically correct - Souls versus Persons. Irrelevant here really, but thanks for your support. :) |
olivermbs Please tell us why it would be worse? More heavily populated area? Emergency teams are not as fast to respond? Hospitals are crap in the UK? Those are not really answers above but an attempt to get you to say something with some relevance!!!!! |
If true, Oxygen equipment in cabin most likely falling off-place due to the violent nature of the impact and the forces that were created instantly, not rapid decompression bs.
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It doesn't indicate an inexperienced trainee pilot, only that he/she was new to this particular aircraft.
It could have been an annual line check. Both PF and PNF might well have been well-experienced on type. It doesn't necessarily mean either was new to the aircraft. Presumably this would also be classed as a 'training flight'. One captain and two copilots. I put my money on this being a training flight with a new F/O. |
SPECULATION (for the PPL'ers): An eyewitness who was one of the first to assist survivors noticed oxygen masks were deployed in the cabin? Maybe rapid decompression at 200'? Maybe some of the spark plugs were dirty and not all cylinders were firing, just I once had on my 172? As there was a check captain on board and cloud base at 800', maybe they were practicing a precautionary with low level circuit and short and soft field landing? I had to do that once too...
Originally Posted by Christodoulidesd
(Post 4746622)
If true, Oxygen equipment in cabin most likely falling off-place due to the violent nature of the impact and the forces that were created instantly, not rapid decompression bs.
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Africangenesis: there were 3 lifeliner (medical) helicopters present and at least 1 police helicopter
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No sense in speculating on survivability based on surrounding aircraft structure.
Soft strutures often intrude on interior space while strong (hard) structures often transmit G loads sufficient to cause internal injuries. The best that can be done is to keep most seats attached to the floor up to a limit. In the end the investigation will also consider the specific survivability factors in this accident based on associated facts. |
Dutch media: Moving bodies just not an option
Dutch media quotes two Dutch Transport Safety Investigation Board officials with different but not conflicting information as to why the crew's bodies haven't been removed yet.
One says that officials will conduct some "investigative work" first (keep the "scene" sterile, if you will), the other implies that the cockpit has been severely damaged as he says the cockpit area will have to be taken apart in order to remove the bodies. |
ManaAdaSystem -
One captain and two copilots. I put my money on this being a training flight with a new F/O. I can see it being the Line Captain getting his 25 observed hours in. I can see it a Co-Pilot getting checked. I can see it the Line Captain getting a route check or line check. Maybe it was just a Jujmp Seat rider who wanted to observe. Maybe it was the equivilent of an Air Carrier Inspector. Any number of possibilities for that third person. |
The pilots
Co-pilot Olgay Oezguer, Pilot Hasan Tahsin Arisan and Co-pilot Murat Sezer.
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Minor point. An early BBC graphic showing the crash site used an old aerial photo and didn't have 18R; this suggested erroneously that the aircraft crashed a long way from any runway. I e-mailed them pointing out that they were using an old image. They subsequently corrected by crudely adding a runway but unfortunately annotated 18R at the southern end (ie what we would call 36L). But at least, they reacted to my note.
Jack |
News in TV, stated that a few minutes prior, a 757 landed. Taking in account that wakes from this type are sometimes, terrifying, we may consider that this may be one factor, of what had happened.
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Danny and other moderators,
I know we live in what is claimed to be a democracy but I firmly believe some of the posts on this thread are inappropriate at best and those posting should be sanctioned. Every single recent accident thread I've read on PPRuNe degenerates into slagging better suited to Jetblast. Disgraceful. |
Suggestion for RIPpers
condolances and other expressions of grief related to this crash can be posted on Condoleance.nl
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Channel 4 News referred just now to the theories expressed on this Forum by professional pilots, giving the name of the website.
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...Can't we just colour-code or mark the postings to separate the wannabe's from the dunnits? This way those in the know can ignore the armchair warriors |
qualifications to post
Surely on day one of an event like this, even a Professional Pilot knows no more facts about what happened than an armchair wannabe surely. There is only speculation and rumour at this point in an accident. If you aren't interested in reading all the dross, keep away form the forum until there is an official report with facts.
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Later dated pictures
Some additional pictures. From ABCNEWS. They add and delete these every minute or so. Missing the cockpit pix from the other side.
http://a.abcnews.com/images/Internat...090225_ssh.jpg http://a.abcnews.com/images/Internat...090225_ssh.jpg http://a.abcnews.com/images/Internat...090225_ssh.jpg |
As good as color coding or whatever sounds.... who is going to administrate it? are you going to send copies of your licences in for us to verify? I don't think so. The mods on this site are volunteers doing this in their spare time. This subject comes up from time to time, there really isn't any sensible solution as far as I know.
I am not a pilot. I could say I was; who would know any different? |
What Twitcher states is true. We're all spectulating at this point, regardless of our experiences. The colour coding of posts would be a good idea. Working with vBulletin on a regular basis, I know that you could also create a seperate group of users which can post but are subject to moderation prior to going "LIVE" on the board. This will also work well if an Amateur comes up with a constructive post, it can still be added to the topic at hand whilst the trash is removed before it is even displayed.
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la2uk
wake turbulence I could understand this post if it were an A319 following at B777 heavy, but a 738 and 752 are about 20,000kgs different in the max landing wt. With correct separation it is not an issue. The post I read that mentioned this also went on to say that it could not be confirmed if the preceding 752 was on the same approach / rwy as the 738 and so is pure conjecture |
Re birdstrike.
Schiphol is built on the site of an old mooring place for sailing ships waiting for wind and tide to ennter the port of Amsterdam. It is still surrounded by water - the Ringvaart - and there are a large number of areas where birds, including storks and cranes IIRC, can nest and breed in the area More on the subject here, unfortunately only in Dutch. There are even special tours in the area for birdwatchers. |
Big Birds in the vicinity of 18R this morning
Hi Guys,
Yours truly flew into AMS on RWY 18R this morning at approx 1 hour before the crash and was airborn from RWY 24 at 0900z. During the final approach we encountered a small flock of VERY big birds that were roaming around 500'. We nearly hit one on the left side. I was landing and had not to much eye for the birds but my F\O noticed them being big and Goose sized. Not trying to lead on about probable causes for that very unfortunate Turkish crew but thought it was worth while mentioning. Regards |
Rainbow - Soldiers are prepared to become a statistic...Passengers are not...even pilots...
People who die in a civilian matter can die of things such as...smoking and ignoring the doctors warngings...but this aircraft accident happened and passengers could not control this... |
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