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TOM stall?

Old 13th Nov 2007, 21:13
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TOM stall?

Heard a rumour of a Thomson fly 737 stalling in the approach phase, anyone know the story here?
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 09:41
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I understand the UK came very close to losing it's first airframe for years (since Kegworth?)
There was G-BYAG at Girona in 1999...
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 10:16
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I guess he meant in the UK area, not UK airlines.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 11:10
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nothing like giving the press something to play with eh? Honiley considering you say you have no facts you are still quoting figures that can be used against all of us in this industry.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 11:15
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I guess he meant in the UK area, not UK airlines
Except the 747 at Stansted then, and the Loganair ones

Either way, idle speculation is hardly useful - is it under investigation or not? If not, then no more should be said.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 11:20
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Why make a fuss?

Probably bait for a media story?

BYAI
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 11:23
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Pilotbear:
nothing like giving the press something to play with eh?
The best way to avoid giving the press something to write about is not to stall an a/c full of pax.

This is PPRuNe and the R represents 'rumour' ... that's exactly what Honiley takes the trouble to point out and whether there is any truth underlying the rumour or not, if it raises our consciousness to errors that any of us might one day be guilty of then that at least is a positive outcome.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 11:48
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poorwonderingwun,

I agree with your sentiments - don't have the problem to start with (assuming there was one in this case) ...

But this is the BIG problem with PPRuNe - people with inside expert knowledge seem to be more than happy to dump it into an open public forum.

You can be damn sure that there are no other professional groups that regularly accuse each other of all sorts of negligance on a public bulletin board.

There are an awful lot of 'commercial pilots' out there than need to show some professionalism and stay away from this type of very damaging rumour mongering.

If indeed this incident occurred as advertised, then the AAIB, CAA and other relevant authorities will take the neccessary steps to ensure that lessons get learned. We have one of the best aviation regulators in the world - let them get on with it ...
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 14:23
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But this is the BIG problem with PPRuNe - people with inside expert knowledge seem to be more than happy to dump it into an open public forum.
I have no problem with an open honest approach. The moment Joe Public thinks you're hiding things ('cos you don't think they will like them) you lose their trust, never mind respect c.f. most politicians.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 14:51
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I have it on good authority that it is true.
Something like 45 degrees nose up with a speed less than 90 kts.
Will obviously be the subject of a full investigation
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 15:29
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Not commenting on the alleged incident, but more of a general query regarding the 737 stall protection system with which I am not familiar. Is it actually possible to stall in the 'conventional' sense (ie, not g-stall or shock stall) an a/c fitted with a modern stall protection system.

My understanding of such systems was that they would ensure a minimum airspeed for any given configuration, and limit the a/c in pitch so that if level flight could not be maintained at the required airspeed, a descent would be the result rather than a stall.

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Old 14th Nov 2007, 15:37
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737 has a stick shaker, but not a stick pusher. So yes, it is very well possible to stall it.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 15:43
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Maude Charle - Wrong

These aircraft are not too far removed from the Wright Flyer. V Basic and will bite back if neglected.

Your comments are forgiveable in light of the bar talk I have heard over the years from people whom should know better.

As regards the BOH speculation, I gather it was not all that special, will see what the investigation unearths.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 15:43
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Yes it did happen, yes it is subject to enquiry which is ongoing at the present time.
Figures given not far from actual.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 15:52
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Is it actually possible to stall in the 'conventional' sense (ie, not g-stall or shock stall) an a/c fitted with a modern stall protection system.
Yes.

Even aircraft fitted with a stall pusher may actually have it set such that it does not trigger until an angle of attack higher than the "natural" stalling angle of the wing. This would be for a case where the natural stall is relatively benign (and basically certifiable) but there is a requirement to prevent excursions into an angle-of-attack regime where a deep stall is possible. This applies to (some) T-tailed designs.

There's no huge difference aerodynamically between what I think you're calling a coventional stall (deceleration in essentially level flight at nominally 1'g') and a "g-stall" (either deceleration at elevated 'g', such as the decelerating turning stall used for civil certification, or a progressive increase in load factor at constant speed, such as used for the buffet boundary penetration tests in civil certification). Provided tha Mach and altitude are similar, it doesn't matter much what the load factor is (allowing for issues such as wing twist induced by load and inertia distribution, of course).
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 16:14
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Just as interest, BRITs B737-204 series a/c, might have been the ADV version only, memory not to good, had a stick nudger as well as a shaker.
So you might find other CAA reg B737-200s might have had them as well.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 16:17
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Alt Flap,

Go to the Professional Doctors forum or the Professional Lawyers forum. It happens all the time.

Those Professional are slandering each other all the time. No wonder they donít get the respect us pilots receive.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 16:43
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I have it on good authority that it is true. Something like 45 degrees nose up with a speed less than 90 kts. Will obviously be the subject of a full investigation
737, 45 degree pitch up, <90 Knots.

The length of the investigation would depend on how badly the FDR and CVR were damaged.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 17:51
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So nobody actually knows anything. That's why this site is a 'Rumour Network'!
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 18:10
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JTP,
Please read my previous post. The final part of the investigation takes place tomorrow. The AAIB have been investigating said aircraft for the last week or so. Extensive checks have been carried out under the watchful eye of the AAIB.
Forget,
All equipment removed was delicately handled and totally undamaged!


Edited. Checks on auto throttle and auto pilot
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