Concorde Crews to Strike
 

Further to the previous thread, I was told today by someone at Heathrow that the Concorde crews were pressing for an immediate strike ballot this week.

:eek:

I don't know if it's just the Flight Engineers or the Pilots as well.

Anybody heard anything? Are there any Concorde crews out there?

Arnt they missing the point somewhat ?

Ground it now and bring forward the inevitabe.

rt

There is a certain amount of truth in what has been said. I can't speak for the Pilot's Ballot, but....

.....the remaining Flight Engineers in BA (all 18 of us) have been shabbily treated over the whole affair. Our union, BALPA, have been in talks with the company for over 4 months now, trying to get some sort of severence / retirement deal out of the company. They have achieved the sum total of .... nothing.

We are not luddites. We knew that the days of the Flight Engineer was coming to an end as we were replaced by computers. We had hoped that we would be given a little bit of assistance as we were made redundant and headed off into the sunset, as it were. What we didn't know is that we would be discarded like so many pieces of scrap, in a manner that reflects no good on our managers, FLight Operations, and British Airways.

Anger on the Fleet is running very high. We (the Flight Engineers) have a final meeting with BALPA tomorrow, and we will be calling for a strike ballot. The Flight Engineers still flying the aircraft WILL NOT allow BA to make a great deal of capital, media exposure, and money from all the special flights next month (October) if at the same time they are shafting us.

Watch this space.
:mad:

Wake up and smell......

What a load of absolute rubbish! There is no truth whatsoever in this rumour. Do feel sorry for the FE's who haven't been treated too well by BA or BALPA. The FE's would need a separate union to strike legally, I've certainly not got anything from BALPA about a strike ballot and to be honest there would be not much support for any action over just 18 guys doing an outdated job.

Didn't the company offer you guys the chance to carry on as Cabin Crew? As the pilots have done in the past?

Youwererobbed said:
"What a load of absolute rubbish! There is no truth whatsoever in this rumour."

I normally don't rise to flame-bait, but as it's been a while, I really can't resist.

Not a rumour - fact. Wherever you get your information from - it's wrong. I will be at that meeting tomorrow, and having talked to my contempraries, I can say with confidence that there will be a call for a ballot.

You then went on to state:

"Do feel sorry for the FE's who haven't been treated too well by BA or BALPA. The FE's would need a separate union to strike legally, I've certainly not got anything from BALPA about a strike ballot and to be honest there would be not much support for any action over just 18 guys doing an outdated job. "

Again, a load of horse manure. There is, according to BALPA, no necessity to involve any pilot in this dispute. It is perfectly legal for the Flight Engineers to ballot and strike independant of the pilots.

Then the drivel continued with this offering:
"Didn't the company offer you guys the chance to carry on as Cabin Crew? As the pilots have done in the past?"

The pilots may have done so in the past. It's obviously easier for Pilots to work as Cabin Crew than it is for Professional Flight Engineers.

I personally have no desire to be Cabin Crew - I have nothing against Cabin Crew, but I've been a Flight Engineer for 30 years, and asking me to re-train as Cabin Crew is like asking Doctors to work as Nurses for the rest of their career.

So, basically, everything you said was based upon mis-informed information, if you based it upon anything at all.

OK, no more Flame-Bait guys, OK?

Sorry to go sideways here,
I heard hat the big bird was suppose to come to toronto next month??
Is it true, (I guess if the F.E aren't on strike:O )
Just wondering when? cause i would like to get my picture taken.
Take it easy, what a bird, i will miss it, for once we did better than the Yankees:8

What makes these Flight Engineers think they are something special?? Their job has come to and end like so many others these days. Sad but true. Any of these guys should know their days were numbered.

Professional Flight Engineers are a thing of the past,just like Wireless Operators,Navigators,Lighthouse Keepers,Coal Miners and so on. What on earth do you expect BA to give you???????? I suspect you all have pensions that most of us would die for!!

Sure you can all walk out in a sulk as you are finished in aviation.It will save BA a lot of money!!

I heard there were Virgin Atlantic Flight Engineers at Filton recently.

Oh dear that's some ego you got there Two Tun. I've got news for you being a FE is not like being a DR, it's like being a DR's assistant. Actually that's not true either cos you are # 3 in the list of order givers. An assistants assistant. If the more highly trained pilots were prepared to work as Cabin Crew then so should you. Your job is no longer needed, you had the chance to re-qualify as pilots and the suitable guys have done so and most are a pleasure with which to fly. But your attitude is the reason you are getting virtually zero support from your soon to be ex-colleagues.

That enough bait for you!

Two Tun

Forget these idiots.

They are either not pilots or if they are they have never had the privelege of flying an aircraft that requires a Flight Engineer

I miss you Guys! Aviation is much the poorer without you - imagine what it must be like sharing a 2 crew flight deck with the likes of the above morons....

Oh OK, I know I said I wouldn't. but it really is very hard keeping the ol' fingers off the keyboard.......

Youwererobbed - FOAD

Compare this reaction to that of the MyTravel DC10 F/E's who are simply being made redundant. Goodbye. Get lost. Shove off.

But then, there is no comparison with the real world and Planet Decadence (formerly Planet Taxpayer's Expense).


As for BALPA not achieving anything, what a surprise ! BA's very own private Union, sorry Association too ! Bad show you chaps !

Now let me get this straight, the FE's are no longer needed, indeed redundant, so they are going to go on strike?
Presumably BA will observe the terms of thier contract so what is the problem?

I was only joking! Thought that you might need more bait to get you riled.

I do think that you have been poorly treated, but your plight is getting zero exposure if the rest of the FC in BA know nothing about your "ballot". BALPA will be on dodgy ground if you guys go for strike action without the rest of the membership being involved. That means that individual fleets could strike, or just FO's etc. If you are looking for sympathy then the BACC are doing a poor job in getting the rest of the team behind you. You haven't been helped by some of the more extreme of your colleagues who have posted on the BALPA forum in the past.

"I was only joking"

Like hell you were. I'll bet you could turn a 747 through 180° on a 45 metre wide runway in 2 nanoseconds!

Concorde FE's
 

Gotta say......
I usually find the 'demanded respect' and the 'world owes me a living' attitude of some of the pilots posting here, quite laughable.
But this chap has a good point, he realises the F/E role is about at an end, but expects his parting at least reasonable.
All the best to him and all the Flight Engineers.

Youwererobbed

Your laughable ignorance, regarding the current situation in BA and the history behind it, as exhibited by the many factual errors in your postings, might be excused on the grounds that checking facts before posting appears to be an alien concept to you.

Your arrogant comments, referring so demeaningly and dismissively to a group of valued and long-serving colleagues who are about to lose their jobs, are another matter, and are frankly beneath contempt.

Concorde Flight Engineers are held, almost universally, in high regard by those who have met them or worked with them. Your remarks, which tell us far more about you than about them, somehow lead me to doubt that the same will ever be said of you.

This dispute is not about whether they will go, but the manner of their going. It is about whether promises made earlier will be honoured, a subject which should be of concern to all their soon-to-be-ex colleagues, including those on the Airbus fleet.

Regards

Bellerophon

You have my support Two Tun

From my days in Balpa (retired you see) I seem to remember BA trained some Classic engineers as pilots.

Am I also correct in thinking that they offered others a reasonable severance package?

Post 9/11, with the remaining Classics phased out early they (BA management) renaged on the severance package that their colleagues had received and it took your fellow colleagues (pilots) from all flight decks within BA to give up part of our pay deal to look them.

With regard to Concorde, did you ever expect to be treated any differently? When you have Bannister at the reigns (who with his management extractions) only looking after himself there was little chance of the "unsung heroes" on the aircraft being "looked after".

I hope you get what you want tomorrow, cos if you dont you would have got my vote (if I had one) for a strike.

Bet that half the inflammatory replies are from management.

Guess who captained the last concorde into barbados,none other than Bannister. Now wouldnt that ruin his history book if there wasnt a last triumphal run of flights next month!

Promises were made to the Concorde F/E's that have been subsequently broken.

They have every right to feel aggrieved at the situation they now find themselves in.

I'm heartened to see the support given to them here by some of the Pilots on the fleet, people who really understand what a fine task they have carried out in maintaining such a safe operation over all these years.

B.A. should wake up and realise that loyalty is a two way street. It is immoral to discard people like some piece of trash when they have decided that they have no further need of them, particularly when to date their continued loyalty has been purchased with false promises.

The best of luck Two Tun , and the rest of you.


Regards
Exeng

Anthony Carn - you are a plonker! There is an obvious anti-BA tone in almost everything BA-related you post on this forum. You have no knowledge of the severance terms agreed between the Concorde F/Es and BA. You are qualified to comment neither on the BA F/Es severance, nor the support they have amongst the BA pilot community. Perhaps you should consider the fact that Planet Decadence (formerly Planet Taxpayer's Expense) was also formerly the worlds most profitable airline. Concorde played a large part, both directly and indirectly, in that profitability. The F/Es have performed a highly specialised and indispensable task in operating the flagship of our fleet, and are now being hung out to dry whilst managers sit at home on full pay.

We all know at least two of the management pilots, Bannister and Brodie, but are there any others?

Also more importantly are there any management engineers to sit behind aforementioned "aces"should there be a strike?

Mind you, even with his skill Bannister can only fly one at a time so the planned "hat-trick" of conc arrivals would be kicked into touch.

I have great sympathy for anyone that finds their career coming to an end but it happens every day to far more qualified and less well paid individuals than Concorde crew.

My own ended in 1996 when the North Sea entered its final slump. I saw it coming and got out.
At the age of 39 I went back to University for four years. Lost the house, car etc ,(Divorce) I ended up sharing a student flat with 6 20yr olds. In addition I worked 3X12 hr shifts at the weekends.........yes you read that right.( nightshift Fri,Sat and Sun).
Come Saturday mornings I had been on my feet for 24hrs. In class on Mondays I sat there after only 2hrs sleep. During vacations, I worked every hour I could, all for minimum wage. This went on for four years...non- stop and I know others that worked even harder than this
In the end I had an Accountancy Hons Degree and a new life ahead of me at the age of 43

I am now one of those despised beancounters and earning less than I did in 96. I doubt if I will see an S61 again but If I can reconstruct my life anyone can, and no doubt I will have to do the same again.

This world owes no one a living...and to think your a special case is to not only denigrate those who haven't been so lucky as you, but to make the inevitable harder on yourselves.

No one said life would be easy

Good Luck

If you were about to lose your job, and had absolutely nothing to lose (other than a last month's pay) by striking and trying to get a better deal when you leave - what would you do?

For BA's sake, I would like there to be no further strikes, but I totally understand where the engineers are coming from.

the world does not owe these guys a living, common sense says they should have tarted looking for other opportunities after the AF crash. however i do suport them - they deserve a reasonable severance based on time served - they should also be iven the opportunity to apply for ratings on other BA craft, but thats all. Go on strike - youll be helping VS

I had the pleasure of sitting next to the engineer on the way to New York, he never stopped.

One could suggest it is quite easy for the two in the "front seats". No slats, no flaps, just a clean wing and a nose with a hinge on it (I bet the engineer controlled that also).

However as all if us who have done a course in sub/supersonic aerodynamics will know the centre of lift moves about quite a lot.

The engineer has the job of pumping fuel around the airframe to try and get the C of G somewhere near the C of Lift. Also juggling with trying to keep the punters cool with skin temperatures of 120C. All this with 1960's technology.

I applaud their skill and dedication to a job which has been underrated over the years.

I never had the pleasure during my 35 years flying to operate with an engineer. I think I missed out.

There is a special relationship between aircrew (pilots/flight engineers) and aircraft. Without one the other is meaningless. No management wants useless hunks of tin lying about the tarmac bleeding the company of money. So they offer aircrew contracts consisting of money, benefits and promises in return for performance, dedication and work/schedule stability.

In this case it would appear that BA pulled the plug on the Concorde early. This has caused a material change in the expectations of the engineers and the promises made by management or implicit in their contracts.

As a result, the flight engineers would also seem to be equally within their rights to pull the plug on the Concorde. It comes down to a question of negotiating fair compensation for the early cessation to the careers of the flight engineers. The bargaining position of the flight engineers is diminishing by the minute and they need to work quickly.

Good luck and hopefully the last flight will be be on schedule.

I have sympathy for the F/Es - or anyone losing a job. But aren't they being offered a) another job, like Cabin Crew, at full F/E salary + allowances or b) the same early leaving deal as the other BA Staff going under Future Size & Shape?

The Flight Engineers Job has been in decline for years
Two Tun has some good points but i bet he has
the option of early retirement on a nice pension,
or the chance of another job within the company
on the same pay.Some staff in the same situation
got off there arse and got on with life. You don't know
how lucky you are.............Reply ?

Are flight engineers able to retrain on other aircraft like pilots do?

Just curious that there may be work on other aircraft that require engineers, maybe as part of their package they could retrain on other aircraft. I think the 747-200, classic still has engineers. There's probably still work, just that there isn't any on Concorde.

Firstly :
The way that BA is treating their FE's is contemptable.
The days of Concorde operations are indeed drawing to a close and it is unfortunate that BA are showing such a lack of respect and empathy for their FE's ; many who have given their entire working life to the company.
The FE's have my fullest support. It seems these days, that the only way to get the message across to the suits in Waterside is to strike. Very sad indeed.

Secondly :

It is so unfortunate that Bannister is allowed to skim all the cream off the top of the flying programme. Why do the rest of you put up with this puffed up, egotistical a****le?
If you look at the majority of publicity shots of Concorde, you would think that Bannister was the only pilot on the fleet!

I hope that the retirement of Concorde goes well. It has served BA well and has reserved its place in the aviation history books.
I just hope that BA wake up and smell the roses and give their FE's a decent severance while sharing the final few flights fairly between the line jocks ( not the management ) who, after all, have been doing the majority of the flights since 21st January 1976.
:ok:

Please spare the Violins - "Material change in the expectations" - what complete and utter nonsense. Like many thousands of other people I was in a good secure job. Suddenly the economy goes tits up and my job isn't so secure anymore. I was given a reasonable pay-off and took the long walk. Nine months on I'm still looking for another job. Am I bitter towards my former employer? Not one bit. They did what they had to do for the survival of their business.

When employers need to make people redundant, legally. they must look at alternatives such as redeployment. BA have done that, offereing FE's the chance to retrain as CC. If the market was better then I assume they would have offered retraining as Flight Crew, subject to age. If redeployment is not an option then redundancy or early retirement is the next step.

I have no idea what package BA are offering to those being made redundant. There are two scenario's.

1. The legal minimum
2. An enhanced redundancy/early retirement package.

If BA are going along the first route then I feel very sorry for the FE's. While they are doing nothing illegal it is wrong to treat long serving employees in this way.

If they are taking option 2 and it is substantially better than the legal minimum then I see little grounds for the FE's to strike. All that will happen is they will lose a month or so's salary while on strike and end up with the same package they were offered. Alternatively, BA could withdraw their offer and give the legal minimum.

mainfrog2: In a word - No.

BA does not operate any 74 Classics and no other FE posts exist in the airline. These 18 are the last of a breed (within BA). Other FE posts around the world are all being scaled down.

Freeway

Cupla points:-

!) Strikes are disaster - did you se BA's share price today? What about the Pension Fund?

2) You slag Banister off - that's OK 'cos he's management

But a mate of mine, who's SSC crew, says he's:-

Got the pilots twice a year trips for their wives

A week in Barbados rather than paxing home

Oh ... and got the aircraft back in the air after Paris!

Don't know much about this mess, but it seems likely the FE's have a bit more leverage than some may think.

Simply put, I can't forsee BA allowing their flagship...the pride of British Aviation...fizzle out with an ignominious fart of petty squabbling, instead of the blaze of glory they no doubt have planned for it.

That would only serve to remind the whole world that BA is still one of the 'sick old men' of european airlines.:E

I will always remember sharing crew transport with a Concorde captain in JFK.

Due to a rostering error he had been approached to operate the next days morning departure and passenger back.

Dinner party arranged that evening, but with a short turnround in JFK he could get there and back in the day and still go out for dinner...some sort of record? He agreed to their request.

All went well until, having operated the Concorde to schedule into JFK, he was refused a passenger ticket back on the evening Concorde! "Alas you dont have the status to pax on Concorde!"

He nightstopped in JFK, missed the dinner party, and positioned back the next day wth us.

Saw him some time later. It was payback time...when, a week after the above he was contacted again to do the same...."your the only one available..." The answer was "No!"

They cancelled the service.

The Concorde fleet has been run at minimum crewing lavels for years and it has always been down to "helping out on the day".

I am sure the engineers have been treated the same. Its payback time Bannister.

I had the pleasure of having a few pints in my local with a Concorde F/E several years ago, and wot a gentleman he was, happily putting up with bone questions from 3 Airbus drivers. It is very sad to see such a proffesional group being treated so shabbily. To be offered a cabin crew position is such a waste of engineering knowledge
Out of interest what was the severance deal for the large number of F/Es made redundant with the rapid demise of the 747 Classic 2 years ago?
Are their oppurtunities available with EAL, DAS, and other outfits in UK and Europe that have a/c requiring F/Es despite it being a dying trade?
As for Bannister i groan and reach for the bucket every time i see him on the telly. Is he the only Concorde driver? and what fleet is he going to? This said i can"t help thinking that this will all get sorted out and the F/Es will move on and be succesful in any new career.
:(

Lucky
 

Dear F/E,

You work for a big global company which has the funds and the inertia that ensures it will obey employment law. You work in area that is being phased out. In smaller companies management would corral you into a separate business unit and then collapse it, leaving you with no redundancy, no severance, possibly even no last months pay cheque.

I think you have spent too long inside the cacoon of big big industry. In post-Thatcher Britain the cushioning you guys will enjoy as your jobs come to an end is the envy of the average British worker.

Dont make fools of yourselves by throwing a big public tantrum. Have dignity. No matter how painful it is for you, you are the lucky ones - I cant imagine what a final settlement after 30 years must look like. It is somthing my generation will never know. Take it, enjoy it, be thankful for the wonderful carreer you have been priveledged to have, and go forward with you lives shored up with your severance - an opportunity so many wont enjoy