Suggest the FEs get in touch with the Concorde GROUND Engineers who, it appears are being similarly shafted!

Oh and the rest of BA Engineering is currently being balloted for industrial action.

Oh dear! :hmm:

astron
The legal minimum is £7,200

Um Hovis, your a tad out, the ground engineers are actually being balloted over whether to accept the pay deal or not. A YES vote, and they deal goes ahead, a NO vote, and then things go to the next stage.

Surely the F/E's knew that three man aircraft were a shaky employment prospect since the 80's?

Didnt BA run a pilot selection scheme in the 90's?

Hand Solo

I will immediately admit that I am not qualified to comment upon the support from the pilot community. My reference to a lack of support, if you care to check my previous post, was aimed at BALPA. I referred not once to pilot support.

I also have no knowledge of the severance terms of the applicable BA F/E's. I do, however, know that there is a legal level of redundancy payment and a refusal by BA to pay that minimum ammount is the only legal justification for strike action. Anything more than the legal minimum is a bonus, for which the F/E's should be grateful. Are BA renaging upon a written agreement to pay out more than the legal minimum ?


Perhaps you should consider that the inheritance left to BA upon privatisation was a complete airline, route structure and the massive majority of Heathrow slot allocations. The taxpayer forfeited a vast sum to establish BA as it was at that time. It was a giant, minnow-devouring monopoly. If you can't make a profit with that sort of an advantage, then you'd have to be trying to lose money on purpose.

Do you think that they're unique in that respect ? Take a look at the remainder of the airlines in the UK, nay, in the real world and how they consistently mistreat/have mistreated their loyal, hard working employees.


I stand by my previous post.


EDIT -- It occurs to me to ask, since you raised the subject, as to how you decide that Concorde has been a profitable concern.

But then, how stupid of me ! I had included the massive cost of Concorde's design, development and production in my calculations. Remind me -- who exactly payed for all of that ?

Ah yes ! BA's old favourite of that era, the taxpayer. :rolleyes:

In the early 1990's British Airways decided that they wished to cancel the last remaining 40 pilot training courses at Prestwick, but were informed that under the contract they would have to pay for them anyway.
This led to BA offering those places to Flight Engineers who were under a certain age and who could meet the entry requirements.
Other than that there has not been any other F/E retraining schemes in BA.
As to the Concorde F/E many of them were encouraged by BA to leave the 747 fleet and convert onto Concorde, as due to their age they would be able to see the Concorde out to it's projected retirement date of around 2007.
This meant that when the Classic fleet was retired, they did not go after the jobs that came available elsewhere and which are now all filled. So yes they did know that the F/E job was coming to an end, but stuck with the company to ensure that the Concorde could continue flying, so perhaps BA does owe them something extra now that Concorde is to be retired early

Concorde Crews to strike?
 

Come on you guys...fight the retirement but striking will only make it harder to keep her alive, you must see that surely!

There are thousands of us out there who would do virtually anything we can to help you guys. You are the ones together wtih all involved who have made Concorde what she is, a national icon, and we want her in the skies.

So work to achieve that, not an earlier end than it already is!:ok:

Why do they have a problem with being cabin crew?

Yes - I agree they are highly intelligent and trained individuals who's skills will be going to waste.

But - if your going to get the same pay but just in a different job then surely that's not so bad?

I'm sure there are plenty on the dole queue who would have jumped at a similar opportunity at their old jobs so they could keep paying the mortgage.

If BA are going back on written agreements then that is wrong, however if they offering you an opportunity to carry on flying (and doing an important job might I add - imagine all those pax who would love to hear all your Concorde stories) on your current pay, then I reckon you've got not a bad deal.

Anyone know how much FE's make a year? Doubt there are many juniort cabin crew in any airline on that kinda dosh. (Apart from the managers that have been sitting at home who have also realised what a cushy number it is and are also taking up the offer)

Whatever happens - I wish em all the best!

Good luck!:ok:

Brit312, your almost spot on. But wasnt there a further pilot retraining scheme in the late 90's? I believe some who missed out the first time were successfull second time around.

As for the retirement date, I think you were correct it was a "projected" retirement date, not a guaranteed date, and hence some stayed rather than taking Classic jobs outside BA, a risk they weighed up at the time.

I am sure they have agreed over the last few years that BA needs to get rid of staff that are surplus.

What exactly is it they think BA owes them?

Peergint said
You cant fight the retirement. She is being withdrawn from service, no matter what anyone does.

The F/E´s only chance to get a better retirement package is to hit BA mangement where it hurts!


Good luck BA F/E´s!
Good luck TwoTun!

'BA needs to get rid of staff who are surplus'?

Start with Marshall and King.....:yuk:

Does anyone know the ouTcome of the ballot?

Come on Two ton you must have your ear to the ground.

stormin norman
 

A bit early for the outcome of the ballot as I don't think the papers have been sent out yet.

You will see it on this forum in time.


Regards
Exeng

Two Tun

What would I do?

Bite the bullet. If you can get more and not strike.......go for it but know when your stepping off the edge.

Your are outnumbered and in situations like this the smart thing is to smile take the money and learn from it.

Concorde F/E's are too small a group to fight and win. Victory goes to the big battalions. Dont look for support from others it will be a long time before the 320/777 fleet go and while they may "support you" you wont find them risking that position

If you strike you will be portrayed as sulking children depriving the public of their farewell to a British technological icon,and the whole labour force is getting shafted every day so dont look for sympathy elsewhere.

Here is what you should do IMHO

Get your grieivances into the public domain.

Let the management do the threatening.

Imply that you have all found alternative employment and you will be leaving prior to redundancy..................no one blaims anyone for moving on and protecting your family's livelihood. ( NB I dont know your contractural liability) .

The market has two edges to it's sword. It is the world of ME PLC and if the phone rings at 10 in the evening with a better offer dont feel guilty for wearing someone else's uniform the next morning while your rostered flight sits at the gate

When I was in Crabair the rule was: do it then whinge.

Two Scenarios:

Overpaid dinosaurs ruin last flight of something that made this country great......Jane Public who, when she found out Concorde would be retired early cashed in her savings so that her disabled son could experience his dream........"How could they do this to us?"

Or


Now that Concorde has been retired it has emerged that BA reneged on agreements with its Flight Engineers.
Their spokesman Two Tun told us that "BA went back on every agreement it had made with us, and it bodes no good for every BA employee". Strike action was discussed but dismissed.
almost immediately. We all knew the significance to the public of Concorde, but more importantly to the young ( Jane Publics son in scene) who will never have the opportunity to experience this very special aircraft. What made this day special for so many is due to the dedication of the crews. We were lied to, cheated and treated abonobilly but there was no way we were going to let people like this young man down( Jane Ps son still in scene)


Time I stopped now but you get the idea


My best wishes

Abominably.et al before Im corrected lol

Fritzi said

You cant fight the retirement. She is being withdrawn from service, no matter what anyone does.

Fair point. But what I meant is fight that you are going to lose your jobs. That's the right thing, but striking wouldn't help. There are many of us guys out there who want her to fly to the date BA stated, Oct 24th, and not before, and if you strike, that date could be brought forward. Something we don't want!

There are many of us who are trying our best to stop the retirement. We have organised a petition, written to many companies to request their support to BA to help with costs of maintaining her, and we have been writing to the government, and the Tories to try to get assistance. It doesn't stop there. We are trying everything. After all this was made with our money and BA have been damned fine cartakers, (yes I know they bought them) and we want them flying until the real time for retirement, which is not now!!!!

We are not lying down as the French would. We want our aircraft to fly even if the French don't want to fly theirs. Funny how they're keeping one of them in working order, though, at least hydraulically!

No why is that, if the aircraft is not going to fly again?

I cannot believe that people are seriously suggesting that it is O.K for the F/E's to be told to become CC. Get real! No offense to cabin crew but you wouldn't catch me doing it in a million years (I'd be in prison within a week for GBH), a bit of a come down from being the most important part of the most fantastic commercial a/c of all time.

All the pilots who are telling these guy's to just accept it because times are hard should hang their heads in shame. What will your reaction be if in 20 years we have the same discussion about pilots becoming technologically redundant?
I think we would hear a bit of bleating then....

Good luck with the action it's just a shame that is had to go that far.

Say again s l o w l y - As I said in an earlier post, BA are obliged under employment law to offer alternatives to redundancy such as redeployment. By offering positions as CC, they have met that obligation.

Concorde is going. The Classics have gone. No other aircraft on the BA fleet requires FE. I'd be delighted to hear what you think BA should do with a workforce that is no longer required. This is the real world. Jobs go. People are made redundant.

Gaza, I have no doubt that BA have far too many staff overall. The company's financial situation is still laughable, (owing 3 times it's value in debt etc.) cost are still too high, yields too low etc etc.

My problem with how the F/E's are being treated is one of respect, whilst an offer to change to CC may be legal, it is in reality a slap in the face.
Are we all so down-trodden in this industry that we feel that this is acceptable behaviour? I sincerely hope not, but having read the replies so far......

In answer as to what I feel BA should offer these chaps. Simple, offer them a series of respectful options, pensions, career changes within the business (not necessarily to pilot). What sort of message does this send out to all BA troops if the most highly thought of group of empolyees are being treated shabbily, what hope does everyone else have?

Finally, just because this is the "real world" doesn't excuse companies/people from treating other folk correctly. It is always the cry of the terminally unimaginative "get real" means nobody can be bothered to find a proper solution to any issues.

Gaza

I'm afraid we are dealing with simple greed here. Get what you can and to hell with a Company struggling to become profitable after two years of 9/11,SARS, etc. Wild cat strike of check-in staff because swiping would spoil their chances to be paid when not there.
F/Es have known for a while that they are a dying breed. Soon to be redundant. Normal rules apply, chaps!

Say again s l o w l y
As the only vacancies available are for cabin crew or customer service agents BA cannot provide other options.

For info, the BBC finance program "Working Lunch" is going to do a special prog about Conc.

Today they asked for people to email in their memories and experiences of Conc.

Send mail to: [email protected]

I'm afraid that the Flight Engineers don't really have a leg to stand on in this dispute. They are a dying breed, and they should have accepted the inevitable years ago.

IMHO, of course.

Oh Twoton,

Why invent yourself now with opinions that clearly are opposite to the original Twotun?

Seems a bit childish to me.

I nearly got TwoTun mixed up with TwoTon.

I believe the FEs just want to be treated fairly and hope that BA will do that. They have always given more than the basic severance in the past and although times are hard, they should do so again on this occasion. It is after all a very small group and the issue will not recur with this group of employees.

As for management pilots 'extracting' the glorious last few trips... Well that just stinks to high heaven.

:mad: :yuk:

The job is aviation, part of the territory has been redundancy, layoffs, furloughs, liquidation. The counter staff were wrong to go on strike as they did, as this will be if the F/E's do. The company is doing it's best to survive and has made a business decision. It would be criticised if it did not. A lot of decisions are unpalatable and do affect peoples lives, but I do not believe that a strike is going to alter the decision taken and can only make things worse for the company and those still in it. The F/E's have in all likelehood had long remunerative carreers with BA, and knew it was coming to an end. The indications were that it would have lasted a bit longer, it didn't. Thats life.

Paterbrat
 

'Tis human nature it seems to believe that everybody elses strike is wrong and unjustified but our own personal grievances must be put right and any action can be taken to rectify the situation. (In much the same way it is human nature to believe that anybody who earns considerably more than oneself must be overpaid.)

I suspect you make these claims in regard to the F/E's and the 'counter staff' with little real knowledge of the issues involved.

You are quite correct in saying that a business decision has been made. Just a shame that decision did not take into account promises made and give due regard to the loyalty shown by these long serving employees.

If you found yourself in the same position would you really just hang up your hat and toddle off quietly?

As for the person posing as Two Tun, what a pathetic attempt.


Regards
Exeng

Gaza

You are spot on, I totally agree.

But you may as well type it in the Martian language, because I reckon thats the best guess I'll ever come up with as to which planet this lot are on.

I saw the entire cabin crew establishment at a medium sized base in my company made redundant in one slashing blow. The only alternative was to take a lesser job with another company formed by the previously mentioned slashing company.

Did'nt see that on PPRuNe causing a fuss, did we ?

That's because , like many outside of BA, they were accustomed to having their teeth kicked in every so often. That's the real world.

This spoilt lot make me angry. :mad:

Why should anyone get used to "having their teeth kicked in" Anthony? Just because you work for a company that values its staff doesn't make you spoiled.
In all industries there are tales of these magical, friendly organisations that pay properly and have great terms, conditions and life styles, unfortunately in the aviation world these are few and far between. It doesn't mean that we should allow our selves to be treated like s**t.

Your example AC shows what a divided bunch we all are and that organisations like BALPA have been almost worse than useless in the many areas of industrial strife. Why didn't we hear about it? Why did you not post it yourself when you saw it happening?

This thread however, is not about whether certain jobs exist or not, but about how people with mortgages to pay and families to bring up have been subjected to a mangement style with all the sensitivity of Genghis Khan with a hangover. Businessess SHOULD be about more than just profits, providing a safe and secure working environment often will bring rewards back to the business as well as the employee.
Just look at how Lockheed (I think) ran their factories during ww2. Good pay, creches, housing and more. Yet they were THE most profitable aviation company of the era with a workforce that had virtually no turnover and even now are gushing in their praise of the boss-man.

Just for the record, I don't know who TwoTon is, but he isn't me. Apparently.
:confused:

Exeng I have had a small internal airline an international carrier and an exec flight department go t*ts up while I was working for them and there was no option but to toddle off quietly. I suspect that the majority of flight crews have had similar experiences. I found that out about aviation as I went along and I would be very surprised if the F/E's on Concorde didn't consider it a disdinct possibility. No, I do not know what was promised, nor what was stipulated in their contract, but I would wager that they have been offered their full contractual entitlement, that they have probably had long and fruitful carreers, and have earned every penny of their salary. I suggest that they were paid what they were worth, and now sadly, their jobs have come to an end.
I have never believed that simply because someone was paid more than me they were overpaid, and 'fair' is a very overused concept.

re:
 

Good pay, creches, housing and more. Yet they were THE most profitable aviation company of the era with a workforce that had virtually no turnover and even now are gushing in their praise of the boss-man.

Perhaps so but BA are competing in an era of cut-throat competition and companies who are leaner because they have grown organically.
Nevertheless,BA is asking for trouble if it goes back on promises made previously.

I believe the F/E deserves a lot more respect than some of your guys are alluding to. Anyone who has been employed with one company for over 25 years deserves a pad on the back. The F/Es could have left BA couple of years of ago and gone somewhere else. Should BA award employees that are loyal to the company? Afterall, the cost of type training the F/Es are just as expensive as training the pilots.

As to working as CC, it is a completely different job as F/E. Most F/Es and pilots don't have the personality to become good CCs. It requires a complete skill set.

I support the F/Es for their plea.

GK

The world has moved on.

As I have said in my earlier post, this is the age of ME PLC.

It is not a question really of what is good bad etc

The party is over and that is it.

A young friend of mine is building hours and often asks me for advice.

Here it is:

We are all responsible for our own skills portfolio and that once you get in the seat anything can happen out of it

Fail a medical, car accident,.........ad infinitum


Then what are you going to do? all that effort and suddenly you are unemployable. The plumber in 27C that you saw coming onboard and sneered at last week is now far more valuable than you. (this is allegorical)

As I learned working in the North Sea you are only as good as your last paycheck and that aviation is a fickle mistress.
One minute your being dragged into bed.the next your standing on the doorstep with no clothes and nowhere to go

Two Tun good luck

When an employer in UK aviation which has a reputation for providing better than the average T&Cs turns round and bites an employee group and there is an understandable adverse reaction, it is always baffling that far from support from fellow aviation professionals a common reaction is "you're not getting as stuffed as some so just assume the position and take what's coming to you". Would you lot not be happy until everyone in our industry is treated like 18th century navvies? Why?

Why is it that some people think that we should all strive for the lowest common denominator? Why is it that some people think that a company cannot be profitable and look after its people too? Why is there often thinly veiled satisfaction at seeing another group being kicked, just because your own group might have been kicked before and harder too?

If you cannot extracate yourselves from this pathetic playground attitude then you will be partly responsible for a downward spiral in the rewards of engaging in this career - we should all try to support those who get the sh1tty end of the stick, and we should all see that some will be treated better than others and that we should support that to raise the bar for everyone else too.

NW1, Very well put.:ok:

Paterbrat, do you work for BA at the moment? If So, given your track record, I am selling my shares and applying for early retirement on Monday.:\ :D

NW and Hovis while I applaud the sentiment that the bar is to go ever higher and everybody gets more, the real world alas, doesn't work quite that way. It must have escaped your attention that the aviation scene has been hit hard in addition to intense competition from the low cost carriers. Where pray will the money come from when everybody is continualy raising this benefit and pay package? Yes it is possible to be profitable and to give a good package but BA is no longer getting government handouts and has to earn the money ie become/remain competative. The laws of supply and demand surely have to figure in your bar building somewhere. The fact that the majority of staff remain for long periods of time indicate amongst other things that the conditions were good and probably still are.

Hovis with your attitude it would probably be a good thing if you did. Besides if you have been fortunate enough to have escaped so far without ever being laid off ever, quit while your ahead:ok:

The question seems to be, is it their fault or BA's that they are 'stuck in a corner' with no-where to go?

Should they have had they're eyes open and jumped ship while the going was good, (i.e. pre paris crash, 9/11 etc) retrained, grabbed those transferable skills in whatever, taken the short term hit in terms of pay and conditions for the long term prospect on continued employment, albeit in another job, industry, etc?

No of course not, because they couldn't predict the future, just like everyone else. To my knowledge, BA always made very public statements in the 1990's to keep Concorde flying until 2010 etc, so it would have been a fair and reasonable assumption that there was some long term continuality.

re:
 

Although,the decision was out of BA's hands.

So, lets get this straight.
Concorde Flight Engineers are miffed because the 'ole bird is being parked and they are out of a job.

Would presume all of these guys are senior with the company, earning near the max for the position.

Yet, have not actually noticed here exactly what they are to receive (might have missed it tho with the six pages) so what is it?

What do they expect? A permanent seat in the executive boardroom?

End of aeroplane...end of job, period.

Oh....boohoo:{ :{

PS: Can just see one of these guys being bossed around by one of BA's limp-wristed finest in the cabin.:ok: :p

I think this thread is a wind up.

I am a BALPA member, nothing along these lines has appeared in the mail or the BALPA forum.

A postal ballot would be required, which I think requires 28 days, and then strikes and other sanctions must be timed within 28 days of any postal ballot of members, with seven days' notice being given to the employer.

By this time the lovely white bird will be retired.

Once again, its a wind up folks!

rho_tait, you said:

I really do wish it was a wind-up.

Firstly, you will see nothing in the BALPA forum, because the 18 Concorde Flight engineers are totally fed up with BALPA. Rob Hall allowed BA to word the last pay agreement for Flight Engineers in such a manner as it allowed BA to throw half the F/E's off the fleet just before March's pay deal came through.

Secondly, the over-whelming opinion amongst the F/Es is that Rob Hall strung us along for months, telling us to leave it to him and BALPA to sort out our retirement / redeployment, only to turn round a few weeks ago and ****** off to management whilst telling us, incidently, that we didn't have a leg to stand on.

So, this issue won't be gracing the pages of any BALPA Log or Forum.

Lastly, we have a Standing Conference with BA this coming Wednesday, after which the 18 of us (not the pilots - it's not their issue) will call for a ballot. Within a week, we will be balloted. If we collectively decide that we don't need 28 days to ballot 18 members, then we don't need 28 days.

Lastly, if any strike action is called, it will only involve the Flight Engineers. And that's all you need to stop Concorde flying.

regards