TwoTun, can you tell us the details of what you were promised and what you're being offered instead?

ojs, you said:
I'd rather not go into specifics on an open forum, especially as nothing has been resolved as yet.

However, it is fair to say that what we want is the same that was offered to the 747 Classic Flight Engineers in BA a couple of years ago, which we were not allowed to take because we were needed for Concorde until (as was thought at the time) at least 2007.

regards

Twotun, good luck.
When the MAN Engineers were told to go they were promised the same deal as the classic FEs.
That was on 05/11/01.
One week later the world changed and all bets were off.
If you do get the deal please let us know because about 120 or so ex BA engineers will be very, very interested!!:mad:

Paterbrat It's been a long time since BA received any government handouts. Don't you think you should drop that hackneyed old line? As for attitude, with a record like yours I should be very careful about throwing stones in glass houses. :p

Dont you people ever learn?
 

Listen to yourselves, all of you that are criticizing the engineers.

You are playing into the managements hands; have you all forgotten that united we stand? BA management must be laughing their heads off when they see the divisions and infighting that is clearly displayed on this and many other similar threads.

I am ashamed of you all, so little unity. Selfish, self-centered, blinkered, thoughtless and SO SPOILT that you have forgotten all the hard work done over the last hundred years to bring rights, recognition and decency to the working classes.

Now it’s the Concorde engineers getting shafted, tomorrow it could be you – look past the end of your noses.

But of course, I forgot, YOUR ALL RIGHT JACK!

"BA management must be laughing their heads off"

Actually my guess would be they're S******g themselves.
This is the last thing they need now, Summer's gone and the results weren't good according to the press reports, it's going to be a long hard winter and 2 strikes in one year would be a total disaster.

Sell those shares now, you can buy them back 50p cheaper later, .......if they're still in business of course.

Bean Counter:
 

You are confusing a BA engineers strike with what this thread is about: 18 Concorde flight engineers. If 18 Concorde flight engineers go on strike no one will notice; what I wouldn't give for a mass BA engineers strike over this.

Its the disunity in here that the BA managers are laughing about.

YouNeverStopLearning
 

<<If 18 Concorde flight engineers go on strike no one will notice>>

Oh I do think people would notice. Given the extensive media coverage concerning the announcement of its early retirement, I would imagine the grounding of its last flights would attract considerable attention.

Lets hope a reasonable agreement is reached.


Regards
Exeng

Two Tun, come, you have raised the topic on an open forum, not in the closed BA part, why do you say "I'd rather not go into specifics on an open forum, especially as nothing has been resolved as yet".

What specifically is it that the Classic F/E's were offered (back when circumstances were different)?

So, you have your meeting on Wednesday, if you feel you wish to finish your careers with a strike ballot, you then have to hold an independently scrutinised secret ballot, and provide a minimum of 7 days notice to your employer of any proposed action...............what a way to end a career.

How many management F/E's are there on the fleet now?

rho_tait
 

Two Tun did not raise this topic but added to it after Pic744 started it.

Presumably Two Tun is of the opinion that to post personal facts that directly relate to other individuals would not be appropriate. I respect that and I'm sure you do also.


Regards
Exeng

rho_tait, you said:

erm....no I didn't. I replied to a post someone has put on the forum.

Again, not on an open forum. In point of fact, the specifics are only really relevant to the 18 Flight Engineers and BA.

Yes, of course you are correct. Hang on, I'll just loosen my trousers and bend over.


One. Who will be doing a lot of flying in October.

TwoTun - I respect your right to keep the offer made by BA private but reading between the lines I suspect you and your colleagues are being offered more than the legal minimum. True?

You say :-
I don't see how BA are under any obligation to give you the same deal made to a different fleet two years ago. You weren't able to take the deal two years ago because your fleet was still flying.

Companies make different deals depending on circumstances. When I was made redundant my package was less lucrative than those made redundant 6 months earlier. By the same token those made redundant recently received a lesser package than I did. Should I have got the same package as those made redundant 6 months earlier? Should those made redundant recently have received the same as me or the same as those made redundant before me? In an ideal world we would get huge pay-offs or pension top-ups and be able to retire to our villa in Spain. However, this is a business world, not an ideal world.

I would suggest you and your colleagues think very carefully about your position. If you do go on strike and spoil Concordes swansong, don't be surprised if BA pull the offer on the table and give you the legal minimum. If they did this there is little, if anything, you can do about it. Any support from your colleagues could only be moral, as any industrial action on their part would be considered secondary action and therefore illegal.

By all means keep negociating. But in the words of the song "Know when to hold them. Know when to fold them." :ok:

My advice to the FE is get as much as possible, play hard ball and don't except anything less.
My father was made redundant in 1987, he worked for ThornEMI as an electronics engineer (nothing to do with aviation), he was 55 at the time.
He is now struggling because their union accepted the first offer, about 10 grand and a pension. Not bad considering when it was.
He paid off the morgage with that and had a hoiliday with mum. Not much after that, as you can guess. He as a pension of 5 grand a year.
My father as never really worked since then, no permanent work, permanent recession( we're Northerners).

If for example that the FE are getting 50 grand, average age I would suspect is about 50ish (no offence!). You are more or less in the same position as my Dad. There is no guarentee that you'll get a well paid job again. Pensions, I would suspect are pretty good but as what happened to my Dad this year, they decided not to give them their bonus (2000quid).
You also have to factor in Inflation. It's pretty low at the moment but please remember that in the early 1990's it was 11% (actual 15-16% government smudged the figures after black wednesday!).
So that really is what you've got to live on for the next 20,30,40 years, who knows?

Sorry, this was a long one!!
In a nut shell...
Those in this position should screw as much money as possible out of BA;) .
Those not in this position and don't agree with this have right to their opinion but I would guess would do exactly as the above.

Nobody can predict the future, it's not being greedy but providing security in an umpredictable world (Do you think I should sell pensions? ).

Goodluck:ok: :D

Any news on today's meeting?

No news on the meeting as of 1500 hours. However, blessed as I am with extra-sensory abilities, and being able to see in the future, this is what I predict.

BA will refuse to budge.

The BACC (Company Council) will report back and tell us that there is nothing more they can do (the sceptical amongst us would retort with the fact that they couldn't have done any less).

We will tell the BACC that we want a Strike Ballot.

They will say OK - how about in a month's time?

We will end up being less than happy as we all ride off into the sunset, clutching P45's and 30 year old CVs.

:{

BA will get the media coverage it wants, not the media coverage it deserves.

See if I'm right.

Hmm, all very interesting.

TwoTun raises the subject about alledged poor treatment, then goes on to say later that he cannot reveal what that 'poor treatment' is...or indeed what was offered.

Absolute nonsense.

No wonder companies have a hard line with these folks.
Suggest that this TwoTun grow up...and stop acting like a child:{ :{ :{

What if the F/E's decided to simply 'down tools'? I'm aware it probably illegal but what would be the consequences?

411A;

you KNOW your parents won't like it if you are on the computer after bedtime. Any more of this and you'll grow up to be an obnoxious self-opinionated aviation-wanabee tw*t with no concept of what's right or wrong and who enjoys the intellect of a slug and a personality to match.

Oh .... I see you're there already.

TwoTun:

From the number of his postings, he never gets OFF the computer

I'm off to find the ignore function


Good luck, by the way

TwoTun,

Sorry old boy, but with your attitude, can readily see just why BA management would want to dump you lot ASAP.

So, go have your so-called ballot...and go on out...see who cares.

Suspect you will not be missed....:p

Oh dear... Hovis... the art of a duel is to aim at the opponent, not shoot yourself in the foot. A very pertinant axiom about glass dwellings, it has however escaped your attention that I am not the one presently inside one and threatening to chuck bricks!
A hackneyed old line it may be, but that however does not detract from the basic truth of what was stated.

Interesting that issue seems to be about precedence, trouble is that what has been offered to others in the past in better times may not always be possible, and sometimes the bar comes lower despite our wish for it to only go up, and that is life.

They would be deemed to have walked off the job and be liable to Instant Dismissal. No pension enhancements. No redundancy pay.

Hey 411a, News Update - this just in:

With your attitude your quite likely to be taken behind a bike shed and filled-in, like as not by your own unloving staff.

Aha, what's that? You haven't got any: the "airline" still just a figment of your overheated imagination, I note.

Well, well, you sad little fantasist, just go back to the pill cupboard and keep downing the prozac and leave the "professional pilots rumour network" to professional pilots, or at the very least, someone with an intelligent comment to make.

As I said recently on another thread, the best way to engage 411A is with well thought-out, informed and logical argument.

It works every time.

JW411,

Suspect that loaded1's comments were the best he could come up with at the time...or maybe the best, period.

Sadly for these Concorde guys, the end is near, and not much they can do about it, huffing and puffing notwithstanding.
They simply should have seen the writing on the wall and retired with better conditions earlier.
Now they may find that they are un-employable elsewhere (B747 freighters, for example), due in no small part to untimely actions now...ie: troublemakers.
In short, who would want them?

Gaza - Thanks for the reply. The little grey cells weren't working too hard the other evening!

Well thought- out logical argument? The day we see that from 411a is the day the sun stops shining.

How's the airline coming along by the way, 411a? Still nothing? Thought not. Still, you keep bashing away here in cyberspace where you cant do too much harm eh, and leave the real world to the rest of us.

Er... Paterbrat? My comments were in response to your own admission,
"... I have had a small internal airline an international carrier and an exec flight department go t*ts up while I was working for them...."

Can't think why but maybe there is a pattern here. :hmm: :D

Back to the thread.

The FEs have a ligit claim because BA has internal agreements that they disregard if they can get away with it. It happened at MAN, BHX, BFS, LGW and now at LHR.
The reason many staff feel or at least felt comfortable at BA is because they new that even though the bottom line salary was/is below market rate, they were protected in the event of disaster. The company are now tearing up agreements and yes many are leaving for better wages elsewhere. But many such as the FEs are trapped with no where to go. How many engineers do you know that could hold down the job of steward? I couldn't, the first bit of lip off a pax and I would be in court the next day!

Good luck to all, by my experience you will need it! :mad:

Couldn't agree with you more Hovis. I consider myself very lucky to have been able to fly till I reached 65. Four years since retirement but I still miss the machine, the guys, girls and the lifestyle. However, we are not the first to meet this experience. Think of the R/Os, Navigators and Loadmasters. Eventually, pilots will be next.

How can the FE's have been paid below market rate if there is no market for them?

411A, I almost gave you the benefit of the doubt on account of your favourable comments about flight engineers that you obviously experienced in your flying career, in many of your previous posts. This 180 degree about turn on this forum now reinforces my initial convictions about your personality. You Sir are a prize w@nker!:(

My comment was aimed at BA staff in general and not just FEs. Although there is a market for FEs just not supersonic ones.

Ouch!! Hit a man while he is down why don't you!!

'Legit' claim Hovis? something down on paper no doubt? Tearing up agreements? or is this mataphoricaly speaking. While your propensity for speaking your mind bears out your unsuitablity for any work requiring a modicum of civility, by your own admission, regretfully it does not in any way support your claims that the engineers have recieved anything less than was contracted. If people are leaving for other companies and better wages then that is market forces. If the market no longer requires supersonic FE's that again is market forces. To inflict damage upon a company because one feels that one is not being sent off with a big enough thank you has a whiff of spite and petulance. If the company has deliberately breached contractual agreements that is quite another matter, so far it seems not been shown that this is so.
Having served long and faithfully it probably is not pleasant to have the jobs come to an end before it was anticipated, and may well leave some in less than desirable financial circumstances, not to recieve a financial pat on the back dissapointing, but not a good reason to inflict deliberate damage.

But then Hovis where you are coming from is clear to see because you have already described your character for us here, for all to see, in your own words it was headed for court .:yuk:

Hmm, suggest TwoTun learn to say....'coffee or tea', with feeling.;)

411A borrowed a computer and wrote:

Hmm, suggest 411A learn to say .....'please take your boot out of my mouth' whilst having a boot in his mouth.

:cool:

Ahhh... the jovial banter of an evening as we sip our Horlics before we retire.:)

Synthetic, sorry that was rather insensitive. I do hope things work out well for the FE's, I just think striking is the wrong way to go about it. I can see the headlines now, Concorde retired early due to industrial action.

Result?
 

Has this matter now come to a conclusion - satisfactory or otherwise - for the FEs concerned?:confused:

cumulo-granite put pen to paper and wrote:

Yes, it has reached it's conclusion. It wasn't as much as we had hoped for (or had been achieved by our 747 Classic colleagues), but, given the nature of the industry, and the particular situation at BA, it was probably as much as we could realistically have achieved.

The truely annoying part about the whole episode is that we are at the situation that we though we were 6 months ago before British Airways managers started f**king around with us in the last few months of our employment.

This episode reminds me of a little article that was sent to me a while ago:

Good, innit?

Two Tun

Unfortunatly the "cheeseboard" that helped pay for the Classic eng. retirement is now not available.......................... Its been given away............. perminently. :sad: :sad: ........ now is that spelt with an a or an e

PS

Would look forward to seeing your boot in 411a mouth:D