A teardrop maneuver might have been the ticket to a possible survival in this case. Gear up is a good question. Dpends also when they did extend it. If it was down during the whole circuit it could have made a difference same as config and speed. Best glide speed clean vs. flaps 3 and gear down at 150kts will lead to a significant change in glide ratio. But that is a moot point. Don't smash the donks in the first place. Otherwise you're purely down to luck and minute details which could be easily figured out in hindisght from the comfort of your armchair...

Based on this video and we don't know how representative it is, FLAPS 3 was used for the approach and TOGA/GA TRACK only appears at around 500' during the climb out.

No one with any airline experience needs an altimeter with needles to tell them they are way out of the groove if they are at 5nm at 3500ft. Given that it appears they were at 210kts or so, even throwing an orbit would have left them hard pressed. Maybe a subtle incapacitation, but what of PM.

Or carried on 3 more miles to the PAF base on the same heading!

If you listen closely, ATC actually says turn left heading 180. The 280 in the text is not correct.

Has anyone analysed previous approaches to this aerodrome by PIA flights on Flight radar 24 ? Perhaps it may show that the airline is quite accepting of un stabilised / super steep approaches ?

ATC was trying to vector them to give space as they were high. But they said they are already established. It could be a case of false glideslope because while ATC was very uncomfortable with their position pilots were totally at ease. Similar thing happened in AI Express crash at Mangalore India.

Sounds plausible. Could it be one of those paperwork problems discovered enroute? Maybe the A358 is a new type and not yet listed in some document authorizing the operations at LFPG. Did they book this as a test flight TLS-KHI-TLS and weren't able to get the change of destination signed off in time?

Is the pun about the aural warning intentional?

I understand and agree with you. I was replying to the comment that on an approach to RWY 25, a turn to 280 would be a right turn. ATC actually said "turn left to heading 180". Whoever wrote the text on the video got it wrong and wrote 280.

That being said, a significant turn like that after already having given approach clearance if just bizarre. Why didn't ATC just cancel approach clearance if they were (rightly so) concerned about the safety of continuing this approach?

Similarities AIE Mangalore & PIA Karachi.
 

There are some similarities wrt unstabilised approaches in both , but the aircraft was fully configured although way too fast triggering flap load relief and touchdown was more than half way down the runway on the gear in the AIE case .
Both these cases , the pilots seem to be out of the loop and decide to go around after the initial touchdown which in hindsight seems to have more of an effect on the lives lost ironically..
Also , the CVR in AIE showed the copilot announcing go-around but the captain continued and the copilot did not assert himself , the DGCA eventually came out with a circular on subtle incapacitation and the mangalore crash is often cited in CRM and pilot training modules at Indian carriers .

Let’s wait for the CVR/FDR data and investigation reports to get the HF info on the PIA crash . Sad day for aviation .

Vilas,

Below is a link to an article, “Pitch-up Upsets due to ILS False Glide Slope.” Conducted by the Dutch safety Board.

IMC I could see a false 6 or 9 degree capture going unnoticed for a short period but VMC probably not.

regards,


https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/med...nteractief.pdf

For which they have wisely disabled comments.

If you're high and fast 'gear is your friend" when you're trying to manage your total energy from a 'too much' to a normal energy profile. Going 'downhill' at 210 kts, along with being high on the glideslope, the plane will not slow down, or at least not quickly, without gear.

Without speculation where is the shared knowledge, the brainstorming, the "I never in the world would have thought of that", the fodder for some crazy movie? Would not one expect that engineers designing the next generation would be reading all of the speculative ideas which then might enter the FMEAs of the next gen? The master button that will light up indicating the airplane thinks you are doing something stupid, are you sure you want to do this knowing that I (the plane) think your actions may cause a crash? Press here to continue your foolish action for which you assume total responsibility.

Maybe time to get rid of the pilots. Or keep them in the cockpit but just monitor, or intervene when the automatics fail.

With the degree of automation in aircraft these days, coupled/interfaced with automatics minded pilots, i doubt this accident would have happened if it was left totally to the automatics. Put another way, the humans interfered and screwed it up, for reasons we are not aware.

Man is fast becoming the weak link. We all know we are not going to elimate human error. I'm a dinosaur but even i can see what's happening and what the trend is.

According to Pakistani media channel ARY ATC approach and tower controllers have given their statements. According to them pilots ignored their warnings at 10nm about being high and fast. Trying to manage that they forgot the gear and landed first time with gear up.

I think the ATC vector 280 offered was on the first original approach as ATC observed they were hot and high! The turn left heading 180 was after the go-around.

Are those kind of descent rates possible on final approach, without the gear?
They went from 2000’ to 100’ in 1.4 minutes, while slowing down from 240 to 210 kts.
That is about 1500’/min, while slowing down.
I don’t think the ‘bus would do that, without some gear assistance.

Silver