Originally Posted by CaptainMongo
(Post 10794051)
Vilas,
Below is a link to an article, “Pitch-up Upsets due to ILS False Glide Slope.” Conducted by the Dutch safety Board. IMC I could see a false 6 or 9 degree capture going unnoticed for a short period but VMC probably not. regards, https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/med...nteractief.pdf Well while I would agree with you in general but strange things have happened also in VMC. Air India Hong Kong incident was in VMC the crew was specifically asked by ATC whether they are aware about GS fluctuation. And yet in 10km visibility the aircraft pitched down 2nm before FAP and descended at 2700ft/mt. then settling down at ROD of 2000ft/mt. The crew didn't notice a thing till at 300ft over the sea when the GPWS sounded they looked outside and went round. It was a narrow escape. So anything is possible. |
Originally Posted by silverstrata
(Post 10794118)
Are those kind of descent rates possible on final approach, without the gear?
They went from 2000’ to 100’ in 1.4 minutes, while slowing down from 240 to 210 kts. That is about 1500’/min, while slowing down. I don’t think the ‘bus would do that, without some gear assistance. |
Originally Posted by Out Of Trim
(Post 10794107)
I think the ATC vector 280 offered was on the first original approach as ATC observed they were hot and high! The turn left heading 180 was after the go-around.
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From Dunya News in Pakistan:
Pilot of the crashed plane did not open landing gear: ATCLast Updated On 26 May,2020 07:08 pm KARACHI (Dunya News) – In a major development in the investigation of PIA plane crash, the on-duty Air traffic controller and approach tower controller have submitted their written statements. According to sources, both the controllers were investigated by the Air Investigation Board. The written reply said that on May 22, PK 8303 was handled by the Approach Tower Controller from Lahore to Karachi. The task of landing the aircraft was then transferred to ATC, 10 nautical miles before landing. The approach and the air traffic controller have provided all information about the incident to the inquiry board, claiming that the captain ignored instructions given 10 nautical miles before landing. The approach controller said that before landing, when the plane is usually at an altitude of 1800 feet, the captain was flying at an altitude of 3000 feet and even after repeated instructions, the captain maintained that he would manage altitude and speed before landing. The ATC further said that the captain landed the plane for the first time without opening the landing gear. On the first landing, both engines collided with the runway and rubbed against it three times and caused sparking before the captain pulled the plane back up asked for permission to land again. According to sources, the investigation team questioned the ATC and the approach tower controllers whether the captain had signaled for an emergency landing, to which they replied that the captain did not declare to attempt an emergency landing and insisted that he would land normally. https://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/546...nding-gear-ATC |
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(pax). A bit disconcerted by the talk about using the gear to slow the thing down. Is that really an option in day to day ops and if you do it aren't there subsequent consequences since you shouldn't have been in that state anyway ( well so I assume). Thanks for your patience, I only sit in the back.
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BEA latest update:
"Communication done on behalf of the AAIB team of Pakistan. 1) BEA, AIB and Safran investigators have not left Pakistan and their mission is ongoing. 2) The CVR has not been recovered at this point in time. 3) The FDR has not left Pakistan." |
Originally Posted by F-MANU
(Post 10794197)
BEA latest update:
"Communication done on behalf of the AAIB team of Pakistan. 1) BEA, AIB and Safran investigators have not left Pakistan and their mission is ongoing. 2) The CVR has not been recovered at this point in time. 3) The FDR has not left Pakistan." |
Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic
(Post 10794188)
(pax). A bit disconcerted by the talk about using the gear to slow the thing down. Is that really an option in day to day ops and if you do it aren't there subsequent consequences since you shouldn't have been in that state anyway ( well so I assume). Thanks for your patience, I only sit in the back.
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Originally Posted by F-MANU
(Post 10794197)
2) The CVR has not been recovered at this point in time.
3) The FDR has not left Pakistan." That smells fishy to me. In above pictures the BEA folks point with their fingers to the recorder positions. They should have both be retrieved by now and the location looks, that they should be in good shape. |
Originally Posted by EDLB
(Post 10794219)
Thanks F-MANU
That smells fishy to me. In above pictures the BEA folks point with their fingers to the recorder positions. They should have both be retrieved by now and the location looks, that they should be in good shape. From The Express Tribune in Pakistan: Airbus investigation team completes initial probe of PIA aircraft crashBy Our CorrespondentPublished: May 26, 2020 KARACHI: The Airbus investigation team completed its initial investigation into the Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) aircraft crash. The probe team inspected the runway of the Jinnah International Airport. They also visited the air traffic control tower and radar control station. The 11-member investigating team of Airbus reached Pakistan from France on Tuesday to probe into the Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) plane crash. The specialists will visit the plane crash site area in Model Colony and also provide technical assistance to their Pakistani counterparts to probe the reasons for the crash. The Airbus experts are expected to take the aircraft’s black box recorder which contains the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder and any other evidence that would help with the investigation. The team will fly back to France at 10pm tonight after 16-hours of investigation. https://tribune.com.pk/story/2228725...aches-karachi/ |
In above pictures the BEA folks point with their fingers to the recorder positions. |
Originally Posted by Don't sink
(Post 10794149)
Here's a human factors thought, they are hot and high, they take the gear early as you do! All very rushed as these approaches always are. But getting to 2000' they are getting back on to a sort of correct profile, start to relax, PF gets back into the groove thinks all is looking good so calls for gear down as you would normally at that altitude, PNF selects gear UP!!!!
However, since I firmly believe that pilots have and will do the most unbelievable things, I can't rule that out. It is obvious that one way or another, this crew was doing things "no pilot would ever do." Nor are they alone in that, as many accident reports will bear out. ________________ BTW - the Aviation Herald is now reporting the CVR "cover" has been found, but the data module is missing. The search of the wreckage continues, and locals have been asked to turn over any aircraft parts they may have found. http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0 |
Originally Posted by pattern_is_full
(Post 10794261)
BTW - the Aviation Herald is now reporting the CVR "cover" has been found, but the data module is missing. The search of the wreckage continues, and locals have been asked to turn over any aircraft parts they may have found.
Crash: PIA A320 at Karachi on May 22nd 2020, impacted residential area during final approach, both engines failed as result of a gear up touchdown |
Originally Posted by atakacs
(Post 10794280)
Anything is possible but this doesn't pass the smell test...
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Originally Posted by junior.VH-LFA
(Post 10791546)
Bull****. Don’t pass the buck. The pilot in command has responsibility for the safety of their aircraft and those on it. High on energy late in a approach? Go around. Dealing with an emergency and not ready to commit to an approach, ask for vectors or let the box hold for you.
Being rushed by ATC (not saying that’s what’s happened here but it seems to be implied by others) it’s a **** excuse for poor decision making. |
Originally Posted by Rapid D
(Post 10794293)
While I agree with you, in my 25+ years I have never heard ATC merely give a heading when they think you are too high on glide path for a safe approach after they have already been given approach clearance. Have you or anyone else? Why not just cancel approach clearance and give a vector and altitude assignment? Or what's very common (at least in U.S.) , simply ask "do you need a 360?" when they see how high you are on a visual approach. But to not cancel approach clearance yet give a heading? ATC knew it was not good. They could have done a bette job on intervention.
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If I didn't know that I wasn't supposed to come over the numbers at 210 knots gear up with the alarms flashing and wailing, I don't think an extra call from ATC would save me. :ugh:
But for the grace of God, could happen to anybody, they didn't know, tunnel vision, poor CRM, their shared mental model was flawed, we must not be judgmental etc... |
Originally Posted by ex-EGLL
(Post 10794333)
But where do you draw the line for ATC intervention? Controllers get very little exposure to line flying these days, there are an endless number of performance figures that controllers know nothing about. The first time a controller broke someone off the approach because in his/her opinion the aircraft was high and or fast but was in fact was set up and able to conduct a stable (by 1000') approach all h**l would break loose form the pilot community. The controller questioned the situation ,offered an alternative but the pilot insisted he was "comfortable" with the situation, the captain has the final authority / responsibility.
An ATC directed heading after approach clearance is given should also involve cancellation of approach clearance. Can we agree on that? |
Looks very plausible
[QUOTE=RudderTrimZero;10793953]A very amateurish attempt at recreating the approach but should give non-pilots an idea of the speeds and angles involved here. Also with the Master Warning and CRC going off for over-speed, gives an idea of how easy it might have been to be completely oblivious to the LDG GEAR warning. I'm not completely sure that the logic for overspeed has priority over the LDG GEAR warning. May be someone can chime in for that
After reading so many posts and waiting for CVR and FDR readings, what i see on this video, up to the moment when the engines impact on the runway , looks very plausible. ( it´s impossible to replicate the flight after the go around, as the engines, hydraulics, electrical generation, fuel pumps or anything related to the gearbox/engine damage after the scratching will be known only after CVR/FDR readings are done). Kudos to the guy who made the video. |
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