In terms of usual safety procedure; if, in fact, a go-around was initiated after a gear-up touchdown, would that not usually result in the aircraft commander announcing an emergency to ATC. And is it conceivable that the pilots were unaware of scraping engine nacelles on the runway? Thanks in advance.
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A journalist called Ovais Jafar has just posted on twitter an extract of the audio between ATC and the pilot. It appears they had problems with the landing gear and also lost both engines at the end. This is a longer extract than the earlier transcript and audio posted here. Sorry but I cannot post links here.
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Originally Posted by auldlassie
(Post 10790046)
A journalist called Ovais Jafar has just posted on twitter an extract of the audio between ATC and the pilot.
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Also the intake nacelles of both engines look very much intact. Can engine scraping of this degree cause loss of oil ? Are there critical components towards the belly of the engines that are susceptible to scraping damage? Thank you.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....5df4714d10.jpg |
Originally Posted by skadi
(Post 10790037)
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The 'damage' to the underside of the nacelles is consistent with first points of contact gear up at touchdown attitude.
The GPWS 'Too Low Gear' would have been impossible to ignore though. I would have thought that a subsequent go-around would have resulted in a tail strike. Post crash fires are not always the result of remaining fuel. In the tragic wreckage site, there's more than likely enough burnable debris to cause significant burning. Double engine failure due fuel exhaustion is a possibility. |
Originally Posted by freshgasflow
(Post 10790057)
Grateful if someone will please clarify for me , a non aviation person, part of the transcript.
In essence, why does the ATC controller ask about a "belly landing" when the pilot declared engine failure ? Isn't that something strange to ask , considering that landing gear problems are not always linked to engine issues ? |
My question is: Is there any evidence that the aircraft struck the runway on the first attempt other than the unconfirmed photographs showing black marks on the nacelles? I'm not sure which is chicken and which is egg, here.
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Originally Posted by FlyingAce77
(Post 10790066)
And High Angle of Attack!
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Originally Posted by akaSylvia
(Post 10790087)
My question is: Is there any evidence that the aircraft struck the runway on the first attempt other than the unconfirmed photographs showing black marks on the nacelles?
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Just my 2 cents,
Damage under the engines looks more considerable than oil leak and starts too far forward. Difficult to tell but looks like the drain masts are gone. As for not noticing the GPWS LG warning, its happened before. |
Here's a detail from one of Hamza Omer's widely published pictures of the aircraft, presumably after the first approach. There does appear to be damage from nacelle scrapes and the RAT is indeed deployed.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....989174afa6.jpg |
Various sources on social media suggesting GA due to unsafe landing gear and bird strike on the climb out leaving them without thrust. That chimes with the evidence thus far. Either way, not much that could be done in that case with little altitude, no thrust and no options.
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Originally Posted by akaSylvia
(Post 10790087)
My question is: Is there any evidence that the aircraft struck the runway on the first attempt other than the unconfirmed photographs showing black marks on the nacelles?
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I'd call BS on the bird-strike. The nacelles do look scraped - and #2 looks worse than #1 with damage externding farther forward, including the lower intake-ring.
It would be interesting to know if the rear fuselage got scraped, too. In any way, the scrape-damage overall seems fairly slight: The nacelles are just held in place by the lower latches and they seem to hold together quite well. Maybe they really did just barely scrape the runway during a late G/A. I think they couldn't have made the runway - they probably saw the runway rising in their line of sight and did what most people would do - pull the stick. The area doesn't look too inviting for a dead-stick landing, so one couldn't really blame them for doing it, given the amount of options... |
Originally Posted by andrasz
(Post 10790098)
In short, no. The photographs appear to be genuine, but the origin of the marks are educated speculation at this stage. However a ground strike appears to be the scenario most fitting the known facts at the moment. Suggest you read the Smartlynx 320 accident synopsis: https://avherald.com/h?article=4b57c3dd
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Originally Posted by FlyingAce77
(Post 10790066)
And High Angle of Attack!
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For armchair interest, I believe if you sort through the ground impact photos you may identify one engine naelle aft of the fan cowl
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As for not noticing the GPWS LG warning, its happened before. |
Originally Posted by Landa
(Post 10790132)
Reviewing the pictures of the go-around, does it seem odd to anyone else that the flaps and slats appear to be retracted?
I'm assuming that: 1. The picture was taken soon after the aborted landing... (Based on the angle the picture is taken from) 2 The pilots wouldn't retract all the flap/slat at low level. Could this point to the approach being flown in abnormal gear/slat/flap configuration? |
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
(Post 10790106)
While not conclusive, the Mode S altitude readouts referred to in previous posts would support the proposition that the aircraft descended to 0' AAL during the GA.
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 10790100)
Here's a detail from one of Hamza Omer's widely published pictures of the aircraft, presumably after the first approach. There does appear to be damage from nacelle scrapes and the RAT is indeed deployed.
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Originally Posted by bobjones
(Post 10790141)
There are salt flats just south of downwind runway 25
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Originally Posted by blessing786
(Post 10789657)
Maybe leaked by some insiders since its Pakistan.
It would add to injury to assault, if PIA did release the manifesto without officially informing passengers and staff affected by the crash. Sads time indeed.... |
Surprised that nobody has asked how current they were. Hours in las 90, 30 and 7 days could be surprisingly low in the current climate
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Originally Posted by Fursty Ferret
(Post 10790143)
You can't miss it on an Airbus, there's an additional ECAM master warning for gear not down.
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Potentially gear issues on first landing, RAT may give that away at the moment. I think the possibility that there was some terrain contact with the engines slightly followed by a go around. But unsure on the final approach that resulted in the crash. By looking at the CCTV clips both engines are out as the crew are attempting to max out the lift with the high AoA.
Could have had a genuine fault with the gear followed by a depletion of fuel on the go around... |
Are the oil cooler lines right at the very bottom of the cowling on the CFM56-b5 series? Wondered if they were in the firing line during a pod strike.
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Why did no-one notice?
From what I can see from the videos and stills, the U/C, flaps & slats are retracted in the still shot of the scraped nacelles, but the U/C is down in every video clear enough to see. The videos are not clear enough to ascertain the flap & slat position. In every image the engines are trailing white vapour. So, I'm not surprised they stopped, possibly from oil starvation. In the video of the aircraft descending into the buildings, it's quite clear that the first plume of smoke is wrapped around a fireball, so I think it unlikely that overall fuel starvation is the cause.
The interesting bit in all this is how the engines came to be damaged, and how it seems no-one noticed at the time, because it looks as if they must have been damaged a good 5 minutes before the aircraft crashed. How is it, then, that this aircraft came to bang its engines on the ground without anyone noticing, and with no remarks about it on the radio? |
Originally Posted by PoppaJo
(Post 10789731)
I’m not sure if that video showing the port side is the real deal. Seems like a normal approach to me. If it is the video, then glide speed is good and I assume they simply landed short. Gear is down.
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Originally Posted by squidie
(Post 10790191)
Potentially gear issues on first landing, RAT may give that away at the moment. I think the possibility that there was some terrain contact with the engines slightly followed by a go around. But unsure on the final approach that resulted in the crash. By looking at the CCTV clips both engines are out as the crew are attempting to max out the lift with the high AoA.
Could have had a genuine fault with the gear followed by a depletion of fuel on the go around...
Originally Posted by ZAGORFLY
(Post 10790216)
only if we have a photo showing the RAT we know that it was a double engine out. from the photos i have seen of the wreck it looks that the fan was not rotating under power.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....1609143754.jpg |
On the one hand, I am firm believer in "never say never." There have been too many aviation accidents where observers say "No pilot (or crew, or aircraft) would ever do that!" - only to be proven wrong when the final report comes out. Pilots and planes sometimes do the craziest things.
I do have doubts that a crew would attempt to complete a 550nm flight if they had bounced the engines on the tarmac on take-off, but you just never know. I do have doubts the impact mushroom cloud would have been that large (see end of final glide video) if the fuel tanks were empty, but you just never know. For the moment I lean to the theory of - ground contact during gear-up touchdown (intentional or not) - followed by mechanical engine failure due to ground contact (G forces, inner inlet shrouds dislodged, fan strikes, oil loss, etc.) - followed by attempt to stretch glide at alpha-floor (which rarely works, but if the alternative is hitting a 5-story concrete building head-on....?). Will stay tuned for further information. |
Originally Posted by giggitygiggity
(Post 10790219)
To split hairs, an extended RAT doesn't necessarily mean the engines have necessarily both failed, only that the AC busses aren't powered. This photo to me clearly shows the RAT as extended.
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Originally Posted by Feathers McGraw
(Post 10789787)
Could the dirty lower nacelles be due to oil leaks, maybe over the whole flight? I know it's both engines but maybe there was some sort of systematic maintenance error.
If the oil loss is total then both engines could run down due to lack of lubrication. |
Questions about this video
Originally Posted by skadi
(Post 10790037)
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It is clear that the controller did not think that they would make the first approach just based on their energy 3500ft at 5NM. It will be interesting to find out what the rate of descent was in the last minute of the first approach. If there were over speed (flaps) warnings masking a Landing gear not down ECAM and a high rate of descent with a low thrust setting by the the time the GPWS gives you the TOO LOW GEAR there may only be a few seconds to react. Imagine high workload from a high energy approach, the low thrust setting, late go around decision and into the flare mode and not enough back stick pressure (big pull required low down) and ground contact quite possible. The rest would be consistent with a double engine failure from the damage.
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 10790232)
And, probably not a player in this case unless some checklist calls for it but the RAT can be deployed manually using a guarded switch on many aircraft including apparently the A320. I know it works even with the battery switch off on some Boeings after a colleague with SR-71 stickers all over his flight kit demoed it one day on the ramp while trying turn on the battery to start the APU.
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This is a possible scenario:
LGCIU 1 fault, GPWS off as per ECAM to prevent spurious 'TOO LOW GEAR' flight continues, LGCIU 2 Fails on final, high workload, gear missed, no GPWS call outs due to being selected off earlier. Aircraft flares, crew notice abnormal attitude etc. Baulk landing, nacelles contact runway. Damage is done to IDG's, both fail on go around, aircraft loses AC1+2 RAT extends, further (currently unknown) damage done to engines on contact with runway results in dual engine failure. It's an idea based upon the current information |
Originally Posted by offa
(Post 10790194)
Nacelle scrape could have been from an early retraction on take-off with aircraft settling and causing additional damage or suspected damage to gear, The initial approach could have been inspection flypast before the fatal approach?
Originally Posted by pattern_is_full
(Post 10790223)
I do have doubts that a crew would attempt to complete a 550nm flight if they had bounced the engines on the tarmac on take-off, but you just never know.
Seems hard to imagine a gear up pass going all the way down to touchdown in a 'modern' airliner. Still, some odd things happen in South Asia. Remember the Air India crew that was low on fuel after forgetting to raise the gear on takeoff? https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/...oisy-here.html |
Originally Posted by giggitygiggity
(Post 10790250)
Never flown a boeing, is it not guarded?
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