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Originally Posted by the_stranger
(Post 10540357)
But why blame the pilots and not management for letting it come this far? If a strike is the only option to be treated a little more humane, what do you expect?
A strike is a last resort, MOL and his cronies could have been just a little more thoughtful and the situation would never have been so bad. so I have no time for the management and little time for those who work for the company who complain about industrial relations.. I actively sought to tell my children not to fly with that company because of the cynical way the employees are treated. However, choosing a period in mid summer holiday season to strike is a cynical move too, As to the report that pilots have families too which can’t travel in the holiday season raised by another contributor; my point about choice applies too. The pilot chooses to work for the company in full knowledge that they may be called to work during holiday seasons so has no legitimate right to whinge. I don’t have a problem with strikes for legitimate reasons but it’s the “I reluctantly choose this period” load of old bull. That said, we just have to look at the other unions in the UK and Aus which cry crocodile tears. my kids have cancelled and I will fight any fees they incur. |
Strikes are effective when the potential damage to the company is high. Nobody cares about a pilot strike in mid November. If you want to avoid strikes in high season try to fly airlines with happy pilots (good luck with this...). Added: In the EU striking to improve your working condition is a civil right, even if you knew about it when signing a contract. For some countries it is even written in the Constitutional Chart. |
Originally Posted by Gove N.T.
(Post 10540614)
surely by now most sensible people would realise what they’re getting in to when choosing to work for MoL and his ratshti company. so I have no time for the management and little time for those who work for the company who complain about industrial relations.. I actively sought to tell my children not to fly with that company because of the cynical way the employees are treated. However, choosing a period in mid summer holiday season to strike is a cynical move too, As to the report that pilots have families too which can’t travel in the holiday season raised by another contributor; my point about choice applies too. The pilot chooses to work for the company in full knowledge that they may be called to work during holiday seasons so has no legitimate right to whinge. I don’t have a problem with strikes for legitimate reasons but it’s the “I reluctantly choose this period” load of old bull. That said, we just have to look at the other unions in the UK and Aus which cry crocodile tears. my kids have cancelled and I will fight any fees they incur. While you claim most employees might know what they are getting into, most that will be striking are not newbies. They have been with the company for some time now and seen their conditions erode over time, laws broken and promisses ignored. Being a pilot isn't a job hopping career. There are circumstances in which a pilot just can't easily leave and join another company. Fighting for a humane treatment in your current company might be the only sensible option. And the time to fight is now (or might have been last summer, I don't know), since a economic downturn is coming. Doing nothing guarantees a steady decline, which in turn influences the entire pilot community and sets an example for other (yours?) industry. |
I know many ryanair pilots have have not had a summer holiday for years with their family to the companies broken leave system. No strike is called to upset the public. People dont want to strike, its normally the last resort to a complete breakdown in relations. If you work in the leisure industry, which is where Ryanair, and BA to a lesser extent, sit fair and square, you don't get holidays when the customers have them. Get over it, or work in another industry, eg hauling freight. Striking is a last resort to get your way regardless of the merits of your grievances, especially when those merits are pretty much invisible. Pious expressions of sorrow about the consequent suffering of the victims of strikes (aka customers who pay your salaries) are just nauseating. Strike if you must in a peak holiday period, so as to maximise the suffering of those customers as a bargaining tool, but spare us the crap about how you just hate doing it. |
Given a strike in ANY industry the “victims” are the consumers, aka me and you. Management can choose to block the strike negotiating or just deal with it threatening employees. So in the end the disruption is caused/avoided by a managerial decision. Do you really think Ryan pilots are happy to strike in August just to get a single “free” day off (UNPAID)? Or maybe there are more serious reasons behind it? Anyway, I’m now starting to understand why working conditions worldwide are going down to the toilet... |
Why do people think paying more to park their car at the airport car park for a week than a ticket on a 2 hour flight with their partner is ok? There is a heavy price being paid by those employed in the airline industry and it can not continue. For UK workers to strike these days rightfully requires a legally high threshold and it can only happen after the breakdown of talks. Pilots are not generally a militant group and for them to be pushed to this action goes against their high level of care and responsibility they feel towards their passengers. I wish the Ryanair and BA pilots and crew well in their efforts and to those passengers affected a sincere hope that their holiday plans are only temporarily delayed. |
"Anyway, I’m now starting to understand why working conditions worldwide are going down to the toilet..."
And for years pilots haven't been doing much to stop it. |
Just so that this thing can be put into a proper perspective, what is the strike all about. Apologies if this has already been mentioned earlier in the posts.
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Originally Posted by beachbumflyer
(Post 10541148)
"Anyway, I’m now starting to understand why working conditions worldwide are going down to the toilet..."
And for years pilots haven't been doing much to stop it. This strike should have happened 10 years ago before the rot set in. Seems to me the pilots are walking into a company downsizing scheme rather than a strike...especially with the MAX being a non-starter. No point calling foul now, we got the heroes we deserved! |
Originally Posted by schweizer2
(Post 10540560)
I'd say an amazing difference in attitude in an pilot strike vs the train drivers!
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For heavens sake Ryanair pilots! You’re behaving like a load of young inexperienced in life, people. Oh wait.... You don’t need to justify to anyone why you need to strike. Let BALPA take care of that. Just support BALPA, go on strike, improve your terms and conditions and that of the industry and don’t worry about the self interested nay sayers. Many of whom have an agenda in posting here and are not simply ‘a poor member of the travelling public’ who’s holiday plans will be ruined... wake up! |
Originally Posted by UAV689
(Post 10539764)
a bit gung ho? From a management that will make up to 1b profit and not share any sucess with staff? That says there is nothing in the pot yet puts its ceo on a 100m bonus scheme and can find 700m to buy its own shares? From a management that has out right refused to put any offers or even acknowledge what the union lads have asked for? This is a company that pays its direct entry staff more than existing long term staff, refuses to put in place a cla which means they can do whatever they want to you whenever they need. Ryr pilots get paid less than they did 18yrs ago. Its a fact. Yet the company makes far more money. it puts other airlines out of buisness, why? Because its costs are so low. The cost of fuel is fixed, the other cost is staff. Management salaries are too high but not obscenely high. Just imagine for a second taking that manager out and replacing him with captain joe bloggs, I can guarantee that 5 years down the line the company will be losing 1 billion a year as opposed to making it! it is the management that makes the money (in most but not all cases) the staff are mostly replaceable and sorry to say it not special. |
Hello "de fumo in flammam"
I note that you do not declare your experience level in dealing with, negotiating and navigating industrial matters from a union or airline management perspective. I would be interested to hear how you arrive at your quite outspoken viewpoint - and what union/management experience you have benefitted from please. Hindsight is a convenient quality that you seem to have in abundance to be fair. I am a BALPA rep for another UK airline - and have been for a few years. It is fair to say that a number of years ago we very occasionally felt that BALPA sometimes fell a little short in terms of support. However - a new General Secretary together with implementation of diligent working practices and pro-active membership engagement has genuinely meant that BALPA has "upped it's game" significantly at every level. I can personally assure you that the support and advice received by the CC I serve upon is very good indeed. I am also privileged to personally meet and engage with other fellow CC reps from the UK aviation industry - including RYR reps. We regularly meet to formally exchange views, ideas and concerns on all issues that effect our pilot community. I have never once heard from any of the other airlines CC reps that the level of support from BALPA is of any concern whatsoever. Your location I see is in the US. Are you a BALPA member? Of course if you are a BALPA member - then I may suggest you contact them for detail as to where membership funds are spent or directed - then at least you will have information upon which you can factually post. You appear to confidently state that you "know" that membership fees are spent on BALPA (employees) final salary pensions. A bold yet sadly wholly inaccurate opinion that is regularly aired by those wishing to criticise the association. Your comment that the "ill equipped CCs are boys in a game of men" is frankly discourteous and merely indicative of your embarrassing level of ignorance. As a CC rep - my desire is to serve my fellow pilot colleagues to the very best of my ability with honesty and integrity. Please let me unequivocally state - that without BALPA's professional support then that task would be very difficult indeed. Finally - I wish my fellow reps at RYR and at BA every success. |
Agree support BALPA and vote with your feet... Such behaviour by MOL should be unacceptable. Even a company like Norwegian that is really having issues behaves better :*
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I asked what is the gripe all about, got no response. All that`s seems to be aired is company making pots of money, management doling it out generously to themselves , pilots not even getting the crumbs and stuff the travelling public who provides it all. Great industrial relations and great PR. Just blame BALPA and all those drunk morons will continue clapping after every out bound landing to their watering holes.
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Originally Posted by Ranmore
(Post 10541755)
I can personally assure you that the support and advice received by the CC I serve upon is very good indeed. I am also privileged to personally meet and engage with other fellow CC reps from the UK aviation industry - including RYR reps. We regularly meet to formally exchange views, ideas and concerns on all issues that effect our pilot community. I have never once heard from any of the other airlines CC reps that the level of support from BALPA is of any concern whatsoever.
Finally - I wish my fellow reps at RYR and at BA every success. Even the discussions of actions in another airline would come under this, which you seem to be suggesting is occuring. As for not hearing from airline CC reps regarding level of support............. they have already bought in have they not, like Unite saying all our shop stewards are happy, that doesn't mean membership is. |
Originally Posted by de fumo in flammam
(Post 10542086)
Anyway, the Balpa DB pension scheme continues to run (at end 2017, albeit closed to new members), with pension costs soaking up a whopping £1.8m of the £6.3m membership revenue, almost as much as salaries, and three times as much as they spent on actually defending members - the bread and butter. Moreover, a £1.6m exceptional DB pension deficit provision was made, and further exceptional pension deficit costs are expected to be ongoing until 2025 (the introduction says £1m for 2017, not sure why there's a difference). It may all have changed since 2018 but not that I've heard, and not that I can find evidence of in a search.
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Originally Posted by de fumo in flammam
(Post 10542086)
Ranmore, check the BALPA annual accounts before directing abuse at me (FY2017 is the most recent one on their website, and while you're at it, actually read the newsletters too) - no, of course I'm not a member, and I have mostly retired. I have dealt with McCauslan(?) in the past, and I was shocked by the experience, swearing that they'd never get a penny of my money ever again. By all accounts, the BRCC reps are very sound guys, but they seemed maybe too swayed by various influences, not least by the Irish CC, and Balpa really should vet what gets issued under their title. "Boys" was a turn of phrase, not intentionally directed at the reps, but yes it was unintentionally derogatory, albeit seeming apt if you read the juvenile guff in the newsletters.
Anyway, the Balpa DB pension scheme continues to run in the accounts compiled Oct 2018 for FY2017 (and though closed to new members, it does seem to be open for further accrual - something even BA NAPSters lost some time ago), with pension costs soaking up a whopping £1.8m of the £6.3m membership revenue, almost as much as salaries, and three times as much as they spent on actually defending members - the bread and butter. Moreover, a £1.6m exceptional DB pension deficit provision was made, and further exceptional pension deficit costs are expected to be ongoing until 2025 (the introduction says £1m for 2017, not sure why there's a difference). It may all have changed since 2018 but not that I've heard, and not that I can find evidence of in a search. So otherwise, it does seem that a vast chunk of your membership dues end up in BALPAs pension pot. |
Originally Posted by racedo
(Post 10542143)
They spent more on Travelling and Out of Pocket expenses £562k v Defending members £544k so everything is ok.
Utterly pointless comments |
And will Balpa actually help?
There are hundreds of contract pilots within Ryanair. I presume that Balpa (as the recognised union within Ryanair) will insist on these ‘temporary contract’ pilots will be released from service before a single striking/Balpa member is given mandatory redundancy?! I doubt it. One thing I’ve learned about Balpa over the many years of membership is that they like to talk and shout and organise and incite action from the pilots, but when it comes down to it, they rarely elect to fight the battle themselves. Its a standard given that you can’t keep ‘full time’ contractors on the books and have them working and flying, whilst making permanent staff redundant. Personally I am glad for the girls’n’guys who will put their head above the parapet and actually strike. Unfortunately, Ryanair will target them and dismiss them. This is precisely why MOL made the press release stating that there will be job cuts. It’s an attempt to legitimise the dismissals, and the ‘zero hour’ Storm contracts will see the agency pilots sit out a month of flying (which they have to have off every year anyway in a thinly vailed attempt to try and convince the rest of the world’s tax authorities they aren’t permanent employees) to again try and validate the airlines downsizing. Let’s just see what Balpa does the help them when the axe comes falling. Finally, I wish all at easyjet the best from the Ryanair management ship jumping; First there was WB Old rostering manager - JB Old DDFO - SC Old DFO/COO - PB easyJet’s ‘Orange Spirit’ will soon be blue and yellow! |
Originally Posted by BBJ-Captain
(Post 10543651)
There are hundreds of contract pilots within Ryanair. I presume that Balpa (as the recognised union within Ryanair) will insist on these ‘temporary contract’ pilots will be released from service before a single striking/Balpa member is given mandatory redundancy?! I doubt it. One thing I’ve learned about Balpa over the many years of membership is that they like to talk and shout and organise and incite action from the pilots, but when it comes down to it, they rarely elect to fight the battle themselves. Its a standard given that you can’t keep ‘full time’ contractors on the books and have them working and flying, whilst making permanent staff redundant. Personally I am glad for the girls’n’guys who will put their head above the parapet and actually strike. Unfortunately, Ryanair will target them and dismiss them. This is precisely why MOL made the press release stating that there will be job cuts. It’s an attempt to legitimise the dismissals, and the ‘zero hour’ Storm contracts will see the agency pilots sit out a month of flying (which they have to have off every year anyway in a thinly vailed attempt to try and convince the rest of the world’s tax authorities they aren’t permanent employees) to again try and validate the airlines downsizing. Let’s just see what Balpa does the help them when the axe comes falling. Finally, I wish all at easyjet the best from the Ryanair management ship jumping; First there was WB Old rostering manager - JB Old DDFO - SC Old DFO/COO - PB easyJet’s ‘Orange Spirit’ will soon be blue and yellow! This is the power of having a trade union. This is why companies, the likes of Ryanair will seek to move heaven and earth to not have union recognition in the first place and spread misinformation and false hoods to try and limit industrial action. |
Originally Posted by Boeing 7E7
(Post 10543664)
More misinformed nonsense. It would be illegal for Ryanair to dismiss workers for striking under an organised Trade Union strike. So Ryanair will not do it, for fear of illegal dismissal claims which would be easily proved, resulting in huge numbers of claims carrying unlimited costs to the company. This is the power of having a trade union. This is why companies, the likes of Ryanair will seek to move heaven and earth to not have union recognition in the first place and spread misinformation and false hoods to try and limit industrial action. The company often is taken to court for employment related issues and often settles out of court with large payouts and a no publicity/gagging clause. |
Originally Posted by BBJ-Captain
(Post 10543716)
You’re joking aren’t you?! Ryanair have dismissed people for years because they are members of Balpa, questioned management or went public with working practices, or even were sick. Cabin crew have been sacked on performance and sales related issues for decades. The company often is taken to court for employment related issues and often settles out of court with large payouts and a no publicity/gagging clause. Ireland, Italy, Portugal,Germany Spain have all had strikes under Ryanair and no one has been sacked. There are laws protecting striking workers within the UK! I would have have really hoped that all airline staff would have backed staff of ryr, for when the terms go down in ryr, they follow throughout the industry. What happens here, will effect everyone! |
Originally Posted by UAV689
(Post 10543776)
I would have have really hoped that all airline staff would have backed staff of ryr, for when the terms go down in ryr, they follow throughout the industry. What happens here, will effect everyone! Maybe there should be a trade union wide ballot to strike (as in other countries and other sectors), rather than just company specific. A staged walkout by all pilots to try and generalised and standardised term and conditions across the industry to ensure that the erosion and reduction ceases. Just a thought. |
Originally Posted by Boeing 7E7
(Post 10543664)
More misinformed nonsense. It would be illegal for Ryanair to dismiss workers for striking under an organised Trade Union strike. So Ryanair will not do it, for fear of illegal dismissal claims which would be easily proved, resulting in huge numbers of claims carrying unlimited costs to the company. The maximum amount that you can be awarded as compensation for Unfair Dismissal is presently the statutory capof £86,444, or 52 weeks gross salary- whichever is the lower. This is in addition to the basic award which can be ordered by the Tribunal of up to a maximum of £15,750. These figures are from 6th April 2019 dismiss a few of the more vocal strikers (not the reps they have access to immediate relief)” pour encouragers les autres” let them take you to employment tribunal in say 12-18 months. Don’t even need an expensive solicitor if you admit it all. Unfortunately UK employment law is pathetic and only get worse for workers. |
After browsing through this thread, I've realized I don't miss Leo Hairy Camel that much.
Originally Posted by Gove N.T.
(Post 10540614)
The pilot chooses to work for the company in full knowledge that they may be called to work during holiday seasons so has no legitimate right to whinge.
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Originally Posted by BBJ-Captain
(Post 10543716)
You’re joking aren’t you?! Ryanair have dismissed people for years because they are members of Balpa, questioned management or went public with working practices, or even were sick. Cabin crew have been sacked on performance and sales related issues for decades. The company often is taken to court for employment related issues and often settles out of court with large payouts and a no publicity/gagging clause. You have missed the point. It’s not about membership of BALPA but rather taking part in industrial action. |
Originally Posted by back to Boeing
(Post 10543921)
oh but the costs are very limited. The maximum amount that you can be awarded as compensation for Unfair Dismissal is presently the statutory capof £86,444, or 52 weeks gross salary- whichever is the lower. This is in addition to the basic award which can be ordered by the Tribunal of up to a maximum of £15,750. These figures are from 6th April 2019 dismiss a few of the more vocal strikers (not the reps they have access to immediate relief)” pour encouragers les autres” let them take you to employment tribunal in say 12-18 months. Don’t even need an expensive solicitor if you admit it all. Unfortunately UK employment law is pathetic and only get worse for workers. |
Originally Posted by Boeing 7E7
(Post 10544187)
An individual is protected by law when taking part in a strike that is called for by a trade union. Yes they are protected. If they are sacked for taking part in industrial action it is automatically unfair dismissal. However they still need to go to an employment tribunal, which will take 12-18 months to organise, and the payout is still limited to the figures I stated earlier. You're not so naive to believe that no striking worker hasn’t been sacked in the past or will be sacked in the future are you?? |
Originally Posted by back to Boeing
(Post 10544365)
ill try to explain it again simply. Yes they are protected. If they are sacked for taking part in industrial action it is automatically unfair dismissal. However they still need to go to an employment tribunal, which will take 12-18 months to organise, and the payout is still limited to the figures I stated earlier. You're not so naive to believe that no striking worker hasn’t been sacked in the past or will be sacked in the future are you?? |
Anything but. Having been a BALPA union rep in the past and a very active member and supporter I’m just trying to point out the realities of industrial action in the UK. |
Instead of arguing amongst ourselves just read the gov.uk facts
Dismissal for industrial action You can’t be dismissed for industrial action if: it’s called as a result of a properly organised ballot it’s about a trade dispute between workers and their employer (eg about your terms and conditions) a detailed notice about the industrial action (which is legally required) has been given to the employer at least 7 days before it begins You can claim unfair dismissal at an employment tribunal if you’re dismissed for taking industrial action at any time within the 12 weeks after the action began. After 12 weeks, you can be dismissed if you take industrial action and your employer has tried to settle the dispute. For example, your employer may bring in advisers from Acas to help find a solution. |
Originally Posted by back to Boeing
(Post 10544673)
Anything but. Having been a BALPA union rep in the past and a very active member and supporter I’m just trying to point out the realities of industrial action in the UK. |
Originally Posted by iome
(Post 10544679)
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Ryanair have had this coming for years. They claimed union recognition a few years ago, but it was only a news headline with no substance.
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I have never said it isn’t unlawful to dismiss someone who is taking lawful industrial action. Just like it is unlawful to dismiss someone because they are coloured or a woman or disabled etc etc. Doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen. If companies acted entirely within employment law we would have no need for employment tribunals. But funnily enough we do have them. In previous careers I have very much seen “trouble makers” unlawfully dismissed but the employer deemed it cheaper and easier to get rid. If you think Ryanair wouldn’t sack a handful of employees during an industrial dispute if it saw an advantage then you are very very naive. Yes it would be totally illegal but the only restitution is through an employment tribunal. It would take you 12-18 months to get there, and you would only get a very minimal payout (relatively) Ryanair’s solicitor of choice is very well versed and very well practiced in employment tribunals and industrial disputes in all UK industries. Just because something is illegal doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen!!! |
Originally Posted by back to Boeing
(Post 10544804)
I have never said it isn’t unlawful to dismiss someone who is taking lawful industrial action. Just like it is unlawful to dismiss someone because they are coloured or a woman or disabled etc etc. |
Apologies. English isn’t my mother tongue so you’ll have to elaborate. However I am very au fait with nasty employers and unfair dismissal cases having been sat as a rep right next to them as they were told to leave the building and as a witness in their unfair dismissal cases. But youre the expert here 🙄 |
Originally Posted by back to Boeing
(Post 10545141)
Apologies. English isn’t my mother tongue so you’ll have to elaborate. However I am very au fait with nasty employers and unfair dismissal cases having been sat as a rep right next to them as they were told to leave the building and as a witness in their unfair dismissal cases. But youre the expert here 🙄 |
People will be getting bored of this but I’ll say it one last time and leave the thread to get back to the actual title. I was sat sat next to people who were about to be unfairly dismissed. And I have been a witness in employment tribunals. If you are sacked for taking part in a correctly organised trade union dispute (whether that is strike or action short of strike) then that is unfair dismissal. However your recourse is exactly the same whether you are sacked for striking or you are sacked for any other unfair reason. Just because the strike is legal doesn’t mean you can’t be unlawfully dismissed. Your former employer will just suck up the “fine” and move on. It really isn’t hard to understand. Anyone can be sacked. It’s up to an employment tribunal to sort out the details much much later. |
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