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Originally Posted by misd-agin
(Post 10387053)
If the gusts were that bad you'd think there'd be multiple videos of planes going around. Airliners don't suddenly nose over, especially at that pitch rate, due to windshear.
Those that land on that runway a lot ( LHR 27R) will no doubt testify that with the sort of wind strength and direction on the day in question (i.e. lots from a south westerly direction) it gets very very “bumpy”:ooh: on final due to airflow over the west base and central area structures. As a result I’d hazard a guess you are not just dealing with aircraft and flight path behaviour due to horizontal gusts and simple wind shear 101 as taught with respect to CBs, etc, there are possibly also issues with rotors, chaotic flow, and whatever else is churned up or shed by the upwind structures...Translated into pilot speak it can get “rough as ****” on finals to 27R in those circumstances, and IMVHO I don’t think it is possible to simply look at that video and then analyse the nature of the airflow, aircraft response and say what is seen is down to any single cause. FWIW for a few years if the Met was as forecast/observed that day the preferential runway system was junked and landings were assigned 27L to stay upwind on West/base central area and so avoid the turbulence. |
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 10387446)
FWIW for a few years if the Met was as forecast/observed that day the preferential runway system was junked and landings were assigned 27L to stay upwind on West/base central area and so avoid the turbulence.
Weather can also affect the use of alternation. For example, strong south-westerly winds can blow across the various buildings in Heathrow’s maintenance area and affect the approach for aircraft landing on the northern runway on westerly operations. When this occurs, we switch to landing on the southern runway for safety reasons. That said, it's well over a year, maybe longer, since that appears to have been last used in anger. |
I wish they'd hold those cameras steady... and Landscape! Got a sore neck trying to follow the Boing... :}
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Originally Posted by INKJET
(Post 10386820)
TOGA should always be pressed other wise advancing the thrust alone will simply accelerate the aircraft towards the ground as it could still in in G/S mode, one press of TOGA ( TAKE OFF/GO AROUND) will give you a FD pitch up and thrust guidance and change from G/S and normally a 1000-2000 fpm rate of climb using reduced go around thrust, a second press will give you full G/A thrust and a ballistic rate of climb in a light and very powerful aircraft. For clarity, pull the yoke and push the trottle. |
Originally Posted by misd-agin
(Post 10387053)
If the gusts were that bad you'd think there'd be multiple videos of planes going around. Airliners don't suddenly nose over, especially at that pitch rate, due to windshear.
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There’s something weird here.
Even a fairly large reduction in airspeed should not result such an aggressive pitch down. It begs the question of whether it could be a problem in the Flight Control FBW logic. Especially given the similarity to the ANA event in alluded to by an earlier poster. |
"Translated into pilot speak it can get “rough as ****” on finals to 27R in those circumstances"
Indeed. A few words of non-sentimental remembrance and lament for R/W 23 are called for. Although, it too was quite capable of generating some "rough as ****" approaches. I remember the shaky-voiced RT emanating from the Air Canada TriStar landing in front of us one wintry night: "Man, that was something" he said in tremulous tones. ATC agreed and said that it looked like quite the ride. A hush descended on our flight deck. |
I agree with HPSOV that the aggressive pitch down is difficult to understand. The FDR readout would be interesting.
Well done to the crew. |
Originally Posted by TURIN
(Post 10387643)
I'm led to believe there is currently a company 747 at LHR with more evidence of this sort of thing. Damage so bad it may not fly again.
All but 4 of BA's B744s have been in action as recently as yesterday. The exceptions are two a/c at Cardiff on maintenance, one at Dublin for painting and one that hasn't flown since arriving from CPT on Friday morning. The latter arrived just ahead of a DL A333, so if it bent anything on landing, it didn't stop it taxying off the runway. |
Originally Posted by HPSOV L
(Post 10387711)
There’s something weird here.
Even a fairly large reduction in airspeed should not result such an aggressive pitch down. It begs the question of whether it could be a problem in the Flight Control FBW logic. Especially given the similarity to the ANA event in alluded to by an earlier poster. |
Originally Posted by TURIN
(Post 10387643)
I'm led to believe there is currently a company 747 at LHR with more evidence of this sort of thing. Damage so bad it may not fly again.
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A few words of non-sentimental remembrance and lament for R/W 23 are called for Once landed a Trident on 23R. Sorry, didn't mean to mention the "T" word! |
I’ve used both 23L and 05R in a Citation. |
Not sure what "done that" means. Could you amplify?
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My 2 pence worth.. caused by gust and not windshear. Over controlled/ too many control inputs by the crew. |
Originally Posted by TURIN
(Post 10387643)
I'm led to believe there is currently a company 747 at LHR with more evidence of this sort of thing. Damage so bad it may not fly again.
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Originally Posted by Locked door
(Post 10385393)
Really? You’re confusing windshear with gpws. Back to flight sim. |
Originally Posted by Fargoo
(Post 10391652)
I'm led to believe your source was speaking equine excrement on this occasion.
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Sorry, didn't mean to mention the "T" word! |
Originally Posted by INKJET
(Post 10386820)
Missed approaches or go around are frequently mishandled, the most common being delayed gear retraction, no big deal on what will have been a fairly light aircraft with both engines operating. If if there was wind shear even without a warning I would delay gear/ flap retraction as the wind shear guidance computer gets messed up by configuration change. TOGA should always be pressed other wise advancing the thrust alone will simply accelerate the aircraft towards the ground as it could still in in G/S mode, one press of TOGA ( TAKE OFF/GO AROUND) will give you a FD pitch up and thrust guidance and change from G/S and normally a 1000-2000 fpm rate of climb using reduced go around thrust, a second press will give you full G/A thrust and a ballistic rate of climb in a light and very powerful aircraft. For wind shear escape after a wind shear warning (not caution) its all about terrain avoidance and advancing the thrust levers to full thrust ( FDEC prevents exceeding thrust limits) and pitching to the PLI’s ( pitch limit indicators) In this go around and given the forecast wx covered an extended period I too would have diverted to my alternate, yes they might have got in on a second attempt but why push it? go to MAN refuel and put the passengers on a MAH LHR shuttle if need be. I’ve always assumed you were an airline pilot, and suspect that we possibly worked for the same company at one point. Other than the utter drivel written on this particular thread by people who clearly have no idea what they’re talking about, I’m not sure that I’ve ever read so much twaddle from someone who should seemingly know better. Just because one company does things a certain way, doesn’t mean that they all do. Stop criticising professionals from behind your keyboard when you weren’t there, don’t know the circumstances and have no idea as to what SOPs the crew were working to. Your last paragraph demonstrates a staggering level of naivety. The simple truth is that this was a well handled baulked landing/windshear go-around in nasty conditions that happened to be caught on camera by some spotters who want views on their website, nothing more. In the very sad world in which we now live, it was dramatised, picked up as click bait by other news organisations & websites, passed around social media and poured over by armchair experts. The last thing it needs is fellow ‘professional’ pilots to publicly confuse their arse for their elbow and start talking from the former. |
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