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Originally Posted by India Four Two
(Post 10202883)
This article states that the wasps take one or two days to complete a mud nest. I wonder what is happening that can create a pitot blockage in five minutes.
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As alluded in many of the posts above, there are numerous questions to be asked about how this aircraft managed to get airborne with these pitot covers on - leaving that aside for a second, this crew subsequently did a good job getting it back on the ground - not an easy exercise in most aircraft - many before them have not succeeded.
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It’s really interesting to me to watch threads when things like this occur and see the same thing again and again, year after year. It is such an integral part of our wiring to seek to lay blame on an individual or individuals. One has to question what sort of walk around did the first officer do? Or was 1 or 2 pitot covers left on and 1 side had airspeed information and the other pilot did an improper crosscheck at the 100/80kt call supposed to be removed an hour before departure ... but clearly someone forgot .. what about the ground crew who left them installed or the pushback crew who didn't notice them? please don't offer sympathy for the "poor devils" - I'm all for forgiveness of mistakes (and learning lessons from them) but this is simply incredible - very basic error. What about the turkey that did the pushback-unforgivable really. Who signed off tech log entry? Missing, or ignoring the actions I described, is unacceptable behavior among professionals. Please stay a student pilot as the rest of us are are trying to even after decades in th I’m not knocking any of the posters above because I have the same incredulous feelings straight off the bat when I hear of incidents like this, but it is worth noting that our fall back position as humans does nothing/zip/zero to prevent a recurrence or determine a ‘why’, and also bolsters our own sense of well being by highlighting ( to ourselves) why it would never happen to us. It’s a natural response. Last Monday I was taxiing along and asked for the Before Start Checklist instead of the Before Takeoff Checklist........ how on earth could I make such an obvious and simple mistake? I’m supposed to be a professional and I don’t even know what checklist comes next? People make mistakes that seem rediculous from the outside and every system should take that into account as much as is possible. Tom Sawyer and a few others have already headed off down that road and identified conflicting SOP’s, unbalanced tension between commercial and safety outcomes, inadequate resources, OTP pressure etc These are the things that leave the reliably fallible humans exposed when errors are made and should be addressed during the Inestigation. They won’t be. No investigation is going to ask the question “if this Engineer was only dispatching one aircraft would the incident have occurred?” Instead they’ll just highlight any short comings by pilots/ dispatchers/ Engineers and make a sweeping comment about how fatigue wasn’t a factor. ( I’m not saying it was). As for us out on the line there is one thing that keeps us as safe as possible, the ability to go nice and slow when the pressure is on. To take 20 seconds and recap where you’re at. In short,’Don’t Rush’. Thats my two bob anyway. |
Asian Airline
Originally Posted by Eric Janson
(Post 10201579)
The correct procedure should be to make an entry in the Technical Log that Pitot covers have been installed. Same procedure for Gear Pins.
Some Airlines do not have such simple common sense procedures in place. I've had 2 cases where the Gear Pins were present in the cockpit and during the walkaround I discovered another set of Gear Pins had been installed! Asian Airline. |
I wonder what is happening that can create a pitot blockage in five minutes. It is not only pitot heads that are a target for mud daubers. I have had Citation pressurise on the ground after engine start as a wasp had built a nest in an overboard vent. Our solution was to put a piece of paper in the tube that would be blown out by the venting airflow. |
Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
(Post 10202755)
I suggest you and pilotmike do some research on the wasp problem at Brisbane before ripping into Maggot's company policy. Why don't you ask him/her how many times his company has taken off with the covers still on?
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Originally Posted by misd-agin
(Post 10203280)
I'm not ripping into their company policy. I am commenting on that I don't care if the tech log says "pitot tubes removed" because I don't believe it until a pilot has verified that they are in fact removed. We have several items that ONLY a pilot on the flight can tell the Captain "job is done." That includes pitot tube covers, gear pins, and engine cowl latches. If anything occurs with those items after a pilot's preflight an operating crew member will go out and verify that it has been accomplished. The tech log entry doesn't count.
The tech log coupon is just part of the system to remind all of the obvious and not miss it amongst other distraction. |
Originally Posted by arketip
(Post 10202575)
Not always
Pitot heat comes on automatically with engine start 757 / 767 |
Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
(Post 10202853)
So one Engineer put in a situation of having to be compliant, whilst being told to maintain OTP.
If some engineers there are working around delays induced by policy (by signing the log then removing the covers) then some other engineers should at least write a damn email to their manager saying 'someone suggested doing this, on enquiry others report having been told it is allowable here, so please clarify if there is a dispensation that allows it given that the airport policy adds (5, 10, 15 minutes) per departure?' Then the company has to say 'no, absolutely not' and engineers who were doing it can stop doing it and take the time they need, and everyone can address performance queries by saying 'well this was happening before. Not me, but it went on...' |
Its not only engineers who are around. There's usually a load-chief standing-by, tug-driver, wing-walkers, security staff. Any one off them could have caught it but in this day and age I'm sure they were probably with their heads over their handphones.
Anilv |
then some other engineers should at least write a damn email to their manager saying 'someone suggested doing this, on enquiry others report having been told it is allowable here, so please clarify if there is a dispensation that allows it given that the airport policy adds (5, 10, 15 minutes) per departure? |
I can’t speak for MAS, but at the airline I work for (major in SE Asia), our tech log procedures are incredibly sloppy. Our carrier has no defined handover from pilots to engineers and viceversa. I’ve seen pilot external walkarounds being performed in aircraft not released for flight, with engine cowlings open and two engineers inside the engine doing work. These are flawed procedures, not pilots normalising deviance. When I worked in the US the procedures where very tight. If engineering was still working in a plane when you arrived at the plane, you made a 180 and waited in the terminal. We even had placards that rested on the throttle quad to warn pilots not to touch anything. I wonder what MAS procedures are like. |
So if the Engineers are changing a Wheel we should go back into the crew bus and wait? Really? HAECO has and uses DO NOT TOUCH placards as well mate, I’ve come across them a few times. If they require us not to touch something they let us know. |
Framer
Good post indeed. We all suffer from the same problem, because we're human. Human fallibility will never be eliminated. Outfits and certain areas of the world who recognise this are on the right track. Punitive action will not cure this. One outfit in the ME, got rid of a Captain because he allowed the A/C to get a "little slow" shall we say.. Instead of trying to find out WHY it happened, they concentrated on stall recognition and recovery. I find I'm more likely to make a mistake, if I am distracted or have allowed myself to be rushed. Experience should reduce the chances of this but not always. What about fatigue? Just because they are within the FDTL limits I.E, legal, doesn't' mean to say the person is fit to operate. With fatigue/stress, the victim is often the not really aware of the deterioration of their performance. People don't seem to have the time to prepare as we used to,because of "commercial pressure".. A loco Captain told me years ago the pilots didn't have the time to perform a decent a walk around, on many occasions. Profits and schedule keeping, before safety, seems to be the norm now. |
Originally Posted by Goddamnslacker
(Post 10202903)
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmf...bec63f4be7.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmf...a70f783276.jpg Also who the chook would let the pics out? Or is it a sim pic of the scenario? |
From TS:
By that time the Crew walk-round has been done (and hopefully covers noted as fitted) When I started out, the pilot's walk round was done as the very last job before strapping in to trap these types of error. In the BNE scenario, a specific threat countermeasure needed to be in place, actioned and checked. The way it's done today negates the mitigation and voila! |
Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight
(Post 10203013)
As alluded in many of the posts above, there are numerous questions to be asked about how this aircraft managed to get airborne with these pitot covers on - leaving that aside for a second, this crew subsequently did a good job getting it back on the ground - not an easy exercise in most aircraft - many before them have not succeeded.
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Malaysia Airlines flight emergency caused by plastic covers left on gauges
pointing to Malaysia Airlines flight emergency: Plastic covers left on fuselage - PM - ABC Radio Of course it is possible that the information from the news article came from pprune... |
Tom Sawyer, spot on.
The commercial pressure to get an on time departure these days is shocking. The station managers of some airlines do not give a stuff about 'safety' as they perceive it. They interrupt the crew during their briefing, shout on their phones in the cockpit while engineer and crew are having a technical discussion, they hover over you, yes I have had three ground staff from one airline in the cockpit all watching me fill the log book in while comments such as , "we are going to lose our slot" are bandied about. CRM/SOPS/Human factors seem alien to them. "Get the brakes off" they say, not realising the air bridge is still attached, tow bar not connected or that the crew are part way through a check list which if interrupted could cause a vital step to be missed. It does not surprise me that things get missed, I have done it myself, fortunately the holes in the cheese didn't line up, the next level in the procedure caught my error, but it can happen oh so easily when corners get cut due to 'norms'. However, When I worked in the US the procedures where very tight. If engineering was still working in a plane when you arrived at the plane, you made a 180 and waited in the terminal. We even had placards that rested on the throttle quad to warn pilots not to touch anything. Be safe everyone, and slow down. |
Originally Posted by Global Aviator
(Post 10204622)
BNE - KUL - 3 crew? If not who be taking that pic? Fair amount of concentration required under the circumstances. Also who the chook would let the pics out? Or is it a sim pic of the scenario? I wondered too at what point the computers on an Airbus decide that tha data is invalid and drop out of Normal Law. Is it only when airborne? |
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