The last point of contact with the aircraft might not be the point of break up, if indeed that happened..... It may have travelled 90 degrees to the last known direction whilst/if the crew had time and attempted a recovery... That was part of the issue with AF447... It had turned 180 degrees from the original track by the time it hit the water, i understand

"Interpol might be helpful but the issuing organisation is the best source of information. Could probably also pick up differences in photos in the passport quickly as well."
I suspect this isn't the thread for deep discussions about that, but certainly with today's technology one could get a "fingerprint" of the original image, a comparable scan "fingerprint" and a scan of the person presenting the document with AI processing in the background. If one has advanced TX of bookings/manifest that is even easier. No doubt someone has calculated the cost of implementation/ongoing operation is more than the notional loss of airframe/lives. Plus if one has this everywhere, it is harder to infiltrate or exfiltrate assets one wants to slip in for whatever reason. A lot is "security theatre" or carefully restrained implementation.

For a more in-depth primer on radar horizon calculations in a variety of units, see Computing Radar Horizon

The aircraft wouldn't have to lose very much height at that distance before it dropped below the radar horizon for a land based radar site at 200Nm out. Nevertheless, I'm confused - why can they not say 'it was travelling at [x] knots on vector [y] at rate of descent [z] before it vanished from our scopes'? That's what military radar installations are there for, surely?

"This is ridiculous to not have some in external location instead in the aircraft"

External ELT antennas exist. Can't speak for the implementation on the MAS777's. See p.8 http://www.honeywell.com/sites/servl...5-F0579B51DCEA

There's specialzed hydrophones to locate the pingers. http://www.phnx-international.com/sp..._SpecSheet.pdf


Deptrai, I hope they're using the "specialized hydrophones" to locate the pinger. The French nuclear sub, looking for AF447 didn't! That's why they went back to review the sonar tapes of that sub. Don't know if the dynamic range of the tapes would have recorded 40khz anyway.

Right. But AF447 was transmitting ACARS data to AF HQ all the time until it hit the ocean. The last 4 min from 38'000 down to ZERO were indeed documented by ACARS until it turned silent. Around 250+ messages were sent. But ACARS was considered false, even in this forum, by the time it hit the internet. No one believed that the information is true. ;)

MH370 does not seem to have sent any ACARS data. ACARS is self powered. Meaning that is like earlier poster mentioned, he would pull fire handles and switch battery off in less than 10sec, ACARS would still send coordinates and vital aircraft data.

This means that MH370 got either destroyed immediately, which on AF447 was not the case, or MH learned from AF447 incident and keeps the ACARS data for themselfs.

Has it become the norm for military and civilian radars to capture and store the data at high resolution for playback?
Unless it is, it would be asking for a lot to have a military radar operator pay attention to an undistinguished blip at long range during the small hours of the morning.

B 777 Electrics
 

There was mention earlier about the various electrical systems on some of these aircraft. A simplified version of many of the airliner systems is available on the web.

B777 Electrical

http://www.smartcockpit.com/aircraft...Equipment.html


These are for study purposes and are generally 'dumbed down' versions of the schematics found in the engineering and crew training manuals.
They do give a good indication of the system layout you would expect to be seeing though.

But if you are after preventing deaths it would be far more productive in cars given the numbers of accidents and fatalities. There is no recording method in them so much remains a mystery.

A live video would not be of much benefit, what are you recording? The backs of two guys/girls, would the definition be good enough to see instrument indications? The only reason for this would be to know the plane has crashed, not why. We know the plane has crashed as it did not land. Sound recording is already there, not live but we will know soon enough and that is far more valuable than a video of a cockpit environment without much definition. The benefit would be far outweighed by the cost and misuse by companies.

Lets focus on something sensible when the findings are found. Spend the money on better identity checks, training, maintenance or whatever it is deemed caused this sad event rather than ludicrously expensive high definition multiple live feeds from every possible angle of an aircraft in flight. Its the knee jerk reactions that make everyones life harder, not safer. How am I safer not being able to take nail scissors onto an aircraft when I can purchase a large glass bottle full of flammable liquid to take on the flight with me? I could smash that bottle over someone, set them on fire and stab them. I am all for implementing better security and surveillance measures if they make sense but live camera feeds are not it.

My AAA Radar consist of two systems a active search radar which goes in flat terrain in a 360 degrees view from zero to 25nm. So i have a capability to detect any moving subject within this dome of 25nm around my radar. I have coupled to this a tracking radar which allows me to track a specific subject up to 25nm. This is a very powerful radar. I can track down a bike driving inside the 25nm dome, if i like to.

Every radar has a dome it can scan. But i bet none of the search radar installations is directly sitting at the coast of MY or VN. So 200nm could be just not enough.

I personally would not see any reason why a level change would make the aircraft disappear from radar screen.

I don't think an AWACS or Sentry was in the airspace. I don't see any US carrier activity in that area. This could have been an advantage ;)

Coagie,
The 40kHz is an electromagnetic wave. Humans (and dogs) can't hear electromagnetic waves directly. We (and dogs) hear sound pressure waves, which dogs can hear at 40kHz but us humans can't.
The electromagnet (radio) wave is made audible for us by electronics. That is why they listen for it with a radio receiver. 40kHz does travel through water, but not very well. However, it also depends on how sensitive your radio receiver is, as well as a host of other things.

So a conspiracy theory is brewing ;) If they had the data...Why would they not just send the search party to its last known position?

Maybe because it was shot down by the Americans and they have told the Malaysian Govt they have to come and cover up their actions?

We've had alien theories...why not this one :D

The issue of cameras being installed is indeed a very sensitive one. I personally as a pilot do not support this. Firstly, Airline management could potentially abuse this information. When you are employed as a Pilot and achieve an Airside pass you are supposed to be scrutinised with background checks etc. Most Airlines still utilise locked door procedures, so we should be entrusted to carry out our duties with trust and our protocols prevent unauthorised access.

The more serious point is " big brother" I a, don't want someone to watch me picking my nose! B, as many other pilots will relate to, when we are under line check feel more pressurised. The last thing I want is when dealing with a serious problem the thought that the safety department/management will be viewing my actions after the event, and with hindsight. This could become a distraction and affect flight safety.

There could of course be an honest broker hat holds recordings and deletes within a defined period... But the CVR/FDR/ACAR's when located always paint the true picture.

So naive, stamps are easy to counterfeit. Where the photos are, in Malaysia even if they are not willing to say.

Didn't they do exactly this on AF447? Yes they did, but the debris was 100nm off that position due to the ocean current.

I wounder why no one till now has posted the ocean current depication by the time of the incident.

The stolen passport and shadowy pax theorists seem to forget that if a hijacker (or hijackers) just wanted to down an aircraft and go down with it, they wouldn't be bothering to indulge in stolen passport shenanigans. They'd use their own passports because they wouldn't care about being identified. A stolen passport is used to evade proper ID, and the aim is to live in a foreign destination where they can't be picked up easily.

The aircraft is reported to have suddenly dropped around 700' from cruise, then altered direction some serious amount, somewhere in the range of 180 deg - then it totally disappeared - and not a shred of wreckage has been found after approximately 48 hrs.
Vietnam has 17 aircraft and 35 ships in the search, there are 8 other nations involved, with around another 40 aircraft and about 45 ships.

I'm beginning to think this is a suicidal hijack - the hijacker/s overpowered the crew, grabbed the controls and aimed the aircraft straight down vertically. It speared in vertical and buried itself in the sea bed, leaving very little surface wreckage, and badly damaging the FDR and pinger.
The FDR is designed to withstand an impact equating to approximately 310mph, but a vertical high-speed dive into relatively shallow water would cause serious damage to it.

After the recent stabbing attack in China, it would appear Muslim Uighurs would have enough reason to destroy an aircraft containing a large number of ethnic Chinese - and they would be able to do this more easily from a largely Muslim, multi-ethnic country - where the authorities would not be on high alert for Uighur terrorism, as the Chinese currently are.
The Uighurs have been linked to Al-Qaeda by the Chinese, and the Uighur stabbing attack is not the first terrorism attack on Chinese by Uighurs.

"Coagie,
The 40kHz is an electromagnetic wave. Humans (and dogs) can't hear electromagnetic waves directly. We (and dogs) hear sound pressure waves, which dogs can hear at 40kHz but us humans can't.
The electromagnet (radio) wave is made audible for us by electronics. That is why they listen for it with a radio receiver. 40kHz does travel through water, but not very well. However, it also depends on how sensitive your radio receiver is, as well as a host of other things."


3db, You're dead wrong! It's a sound wave coming from the pinger. These "electromagnetic waves" you speak of, don't travel very well in water, so the pingers on the black boxes use sound waves, not radio ("electronmagnetic") waves. For instance, think of how far a whale can communicate with sound in the ocean. With a name like "3db" you should know better!!!

WSJ Online carrying story that debris located as darkness fell
 

I don't think there are too many cellular towers in the middle of the ocean! :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Parts of tail and door? Keen for further information.