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On the Wall Street Journal home page as breaking news. No linked story yet . . .
Pilots of a Northwest Airlines flight approaching Minneapolis International Airport Wednesday night temporarily lost radio contact with air-traffic controllers and apparently overshot their destination by about 100 miles. The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating the incident as a possible case of pilots nodding off at the controls, according to government and industry officials familiar with the matter. Controllers were able to re-establish contact with the Airbus A320, these people said, and the plane eventually landed safely without injuries. The plane was en route from San Diego to Minneapolis. Details are still emerging and the safety board is expected to release some information later Thursday. But based on preliminary indications, industry and government officials believe the crew may have briefly fallen asleep, flown past the airport, and then circled back to land. |
Pilots not sleeping - pilots arguing
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That's Fleet Number 3274 by the way, and not the reg.
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NTSB Advisory states:
NTSB Advisory National Transportation Safety Board Washington, DC 20594 October 22, 2009 NTSB INVESTIGATING FLIGHT THAT OVERFLEW INTENDED MINNEAPOLIS AIRPORT The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating an incident where an Airbus A320 overflew the Minneapolis-St Paul International/Wold-Chamberlain Airport (MSP). On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, at 5:56 pm mountain daylight time, an Airbus A320, N03274, operating as Northwest Airlines (NWA) flight 188, became a NORDO (no radio communications) flight at 37,000 feet. The flight was operating as a Part 121 flight from San Diego International Airport, San Diego, California (SAN) to MSP with 147 passengers and unknown number of crew. At 7:58 pm central daylight time (CDT), the aircraft flew over the destination airport and continued northeast for approximately 150 miles. The MSP center controller reestablished communications with the crew at 8:14 pm and reportedly stated that the crew had become distracted and had overflown MSP, and requested to return to MSP. According to the Federal Administration (FAA) the crew was interviewed by the FBI and airport police. The crew stated they were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness. The Safety Board is scheduling an interview with the crew. The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and flight data recorder (FDR) have been secured and are being sent to the NTSB laboratory in Washington, DC. David Lawrence, the Investigator-in-Charge, is leading the team of 3 in investigating the incident. Parties to the investigation are the FAA and Northwest Airlines. -30- NTSB Media Contact: Keith Holloway [email protected] (202) 314-6100 |
The crew stated they were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness. FlightAware > Northwest Airlines Inc. #188 > 21-Oct-2009 > KSAN-KMSP Good thing they are in the union, else they would be in big trouble.:) I try to avoid these discussions in flight myself but some folks seem to want to bait you until you snap back at them. Some fisticuffs have already taken place at venues like Yankees bar in NRT from what I hear. |
That's about 100 NM past KMSP for a total extra of some 300 NM!
http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...8-21092009.jpg |
Some fisticuffs have already taken place at venues like Yankees bar in NRT from what I hear. IE: long ago, same/same.:rolleyes: NB. Knock down drag out fisticuffs with CX guys at...'The Truck'...a sight to behold.;) |
Why no military interception??
SLF here with one question: Why wasn't the plane intercepted by the military? Payne Stewart's plane failed to respond and jets were scrambled pre 9/11.
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I feel DELTA Airlines are being far to shy about taking credit for the behavior of a DELTA crew - or does that only work with the good news stories...
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...or does that only work with the good news stories... Next question?:rolleyes::ugh: |
So if the two of them were duking it out, the "proof in the pudding" will be the cockpit voice recorder.
Several years ago, an Amtrak crew got in a fight in a locomotive of a moving train ... the issue was one guy was a smoker and the other wasn't. There was no cockpit voice recorder to aid in the investigation however. Railroads are still in the dark ages in many respects. := http://kas.cuadra.com/star/images/nmb/02000SGK.pdf ONTPax |
This plane failed to respond to a call from Denver Center when it attempted a handoff to Minneapolis. It overflew MSP, its intended destination at FL 370, never making any attempt to descend. The Air Force had been contacted but apparently never scrambled. Over 100 miles after overflying MSP, ATC was finally able to contact them and get the plane turned around to MSP, where it landed over one hour late. All that I have stated above is verbatim from ABC news which featured this story prominently this evening.
This plane was out of contact with ATC for over an hour! Not good! The CVR will record the final 30 minutes if IIRC. So the alleged argument may not be recorded... perhaps any conversation to come up with a cover story may be recorded. It is hard to figure anything other than sleeping pilots as the cause of this "incident". Between this and the DL flight landing on the taxiway at ATL, it has not been a good couple of days for the DL/NW cockpit brethren. Again, the concentration should be on what we can collectively learn from this. |
last time I checked, the CVR was only to be used if the pilots were dead.
Simply put, there are some really great pilots, good pilots, lots of average pilots and a few stinkers. argue about things on the ground...fly the plane while you are in the air. can I say: dumbass? |
GRYHZE asked:
SLF here with one question: Why wasn't the plane intercepted by the military? Payne Stewart's plane failed to respond and jets were scrambled pre 9/11. "Fighters from two North American Aerospace Defense Command sites were put on alert yesterday for a Northwest Airlines commercial airliner that was not responding to radio calls from the Federal Aviation Administration. Before the fighters could get airborne, FAA re-established communications with the pilots of the Northwest Airlines commercial airliner and subsequently, the NORAD fighters were ordered to stand down. NORAD does not discuss locations of alerts sites." NORAD takes action for unresponsive aircraft |
FWIW:
Local TV weather map of USA shows a jet stream unusually aligned with a SAN - MSP routing. This might have hurried the trip along so much that the crew were not expecting such an early arrival. Not that this excuses the overflight, but hey, it's a theory... :ugh: Chicago Tribune has the story too. |
Maybe we should just set an alarm clock 30 minutes out of destination for these troubled times when so many pilots are venting about their management problems. It would also work if you happened to be asleep.
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This one gets the "nod" for more over-sensationalistic reporting
I heard about this on the six o'clock news; they just had to preface the story with "If you're a nervous flyer, this won't help......"
Yes, there was an incident in the skies between two pilots on one flight. How many other thousands of pilots on thousands of flights delivered thousands of those flyers "nervous" and otherwise safely to their destination yesterday, including the now-suspended pilots. Funny, the news never mentions anything about that. |
Honestly, I'd rather hope that they did fall asleep... not defensible, but it will put a spotlight on crew fatigue issues. The story of two pilots arguing on a flight over the US mainland to the point where they missed repeated communications for 1:14 and overflew their destination at FL370 and continued on for another 150 miles... sorry, but I find that far scarier scenario!
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How about another black-box?
Between this one and Delta landing on the taxiway it's making the profession look pathetic. |
Flight Status
The Northwest website indicates that flight NWA 188 on Wed 21 October was delayed in to MSP due to "Weather -- Air Traffic Control." This leaves serious concerns about the accuracy of such status statements. Everything gets blamed on Weather and ATC, eh? Nice try, Northwest/Delta. Whenever I see an airline blaming ATC for their service, this is good to remember
. ---- From NWA.com ---- FLIGHT: 188 STATUS: Arrived Departs: San Diego-Lindbergh Field, CA (SAN) Arrives: Minneapolis/St. Paul-Int'l, MN (MSP) Departure Date: October 21 Arrival Date: October 21 Scheduled: 2:20PM Scheduled: 8:01PM Actual: 2:41PM Actual: 9:15PM Gate: 41 Gate: G14 Aircraft: A320 Weather: MSP Get status notification for this flight > Note: Delayed due to weather-air traffic control. |
What happened to " Someone minding the store"?
Incredible! |
What a fiasco
Where's the crusty Flight Engineer when you need him?
http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/leadcool.gif |
This is yet another incident where it seems there must be more to the story.
NBC News had the story as the lead on Nightly News and stated that they were lost comm for over an hour and twenty minutes. I could see twenty minutes maybe but over the U.S. I just can't imagine that someone wasn't wondering why it was so quiet for that long. Were these guys maybe watching a movie on a notebook computer with the sound plugged into the interphone with one of those homemade plugs? I've seen this act while jumpseating, I don't like it. Wonder if the CVR was mysteriously erased after landing? Most of them now record a couple of hours it seems. I went lost comm in Yangoon's airspace for half an hour a while back. Other aircraft were also unable to contact the controller. Maybe they had a power failure, I don't know. I mused how lucky I was to be over some third world communist dictatorship (not that there's anything wrong with that :)) instead of the U.S. of A. where I might be shot down by now. Over the U.S. post 9-11, we now monitor guard even domestically. At least we mean to. If you fly late at night over middle America you'll always hear a couple of FedEx freighters getting yelled at on 121.5 for calling ops. I assume there are some radios left on ops freq that should be on guard but I'm sure I've never done that myself.;) Here's the NBC News link, hope it works after the 15 second commercial, some of these links seem to be user specific: NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams: News and videos from the evening broadcast NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams: News and videos from the evening broadcast- msnbc.com |
Don't Even Listen To Atc
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What does the Airbus do when it reaches the end of the FMC route? Does it just switch to heading select & altitude hold & give an FMC message?
They must have really been involved in their 'discussion', or perhaps there is more to the story! |
What does the Airbus do when it reaches the end of the FMC route? Does it just switch to heading select & altitude hold & give an FMC message? |
Probably asleep
My take on this is that these two puppies went to sleep. Then, on waking, decided that the "distraction due to intensive discussion" would do less harm to their careers than an asleep incident.
If the CVR can be used, and holds more than about an hour or two of data, then the FAA may be able to determine the actual facts. Flynerd |
What a disgrace! How can one (two) be so unaware?
And then this: Before the fighters could get airborne, FAA re-established communications with the pilots of the Northwest Airlines commercial airliner Shaking my head in disbelief... Nic |
Wow, what an airforce... takes more than 80minutes before being able to get airborne... See: U.S. Air Forces in Europe - Library Maybe we should have counted on the Germans to to defend the U.S. Thanks for sending your Airbuses to Texas every week.:} I agree that Americans defending Europe sure beats the alternative... |
NWA
The Cabin Attendant call from the cabin to the flight deck (not COCKpit at NWA) is the loudest in the industry. Quite often, one will have restate a transmisson to ATC when the attendant to flt deck call is activated.
I'm thinking the girls wanted know what was going on and called them, thus blasting them into alertness with Frenchie's idea of call alert.....but the CVR will tell all. ASAP's were being filed before the gear came down. Once again the Toulouse Tree Trimer makes the news. |
The Cabin Attendant call from the cabin to the flight deck (not COCKpit at NWA) is the loudest in the industry. Quite often, one will have restate a transmisson to ATC when the attendant to flt deck call is activated. ASAP's probably won't do much good because they are not single source reports of the incident. There was plenty of other coverage it seems. |
Overshooting the Destination
It is possible that the Company and Pilots need a " Silent Cockpit " above 10,000ft. !
Tmb |
Looks like we're all going to be having remedial CRM classes which is enough to send anyone to sleep!
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Reserve
Assuming they loaded minimum fuel for the flight of approx 1300mn plus sufficient to divert to alternate and hold how much would be left on landing at MSP?
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Though I very much doubt it, is there any possibility of fumes in the cockpit rendering our heroes unconscious ?
Other than that, well,,, even my little boat gives an audio and visual alarm for both waypoint arrival and radio selcall, and if the cabin crew were paying attention, why weren't they rather concerned by that time ? If the thing had those little seat-back ' you are here ' displays, as an SLF I'd like to think I might have put my hand up, "errr..." Remember lives would have been saved if someone, CC or SLF, had done so at Kegworth. I'm surprised ( it seems ) fighters were not at least put up to have a look, try that on an alignment for Washington or Windsor and one might get a very rude awakening ! |
Though now technically DELTA, I would think that it was a former NORTHWEST crew.
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Reports Inaccurate?
They only went about 100 nm past their destination.
It is likely they were only silent for 14 minutes, not 1:14.... This would explain why the air force did not have time to scramble. |
I distinctly remember the times when NWA purchased Republic, and snobbed their disdainful noses at the "greenbooks", maybe some of their own fertilizer they spread is about to re-visit them from the "real" Delta pilots...
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Hmmm. Lets see.... heated discussion about the three S's? Company Policy? I guess their discussion created so much heat in the cockpit that their PNDs went blank.
Not to worry.... these guys will find jobs at McDonalds, or Walmart, provided however, they don't oversleep the day of their interviews:ok:. Good luck in your next endeavours. |
Early evening is a strange time for 2 pilots to simultaneously fall asleep unless they had just come off an Eastbound long-haul that morning - in which case they wouldn't be flying again so soon.
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