Actually, I think it says 'Pilot Response'.

Other glass Boeings have it as an option, it works as advertised (or, so I'm told:)).

I find it interesting that the media is describing this as a Northwest event when in fact NWA is now Delta albeit they are a month or so away from a SOC (Single Operating Certificate).

They were still using the Northwest callsign in Asia a few days ago.

I think they refer to themselves as Delta-North in merger discussions.

NTSB investigating possible nodding of
 

Ditchdigger

Spot-On !

150 miles of “overshoot” into IFR controlled space with no clearances or communications . . . immediately adjacent (and more or less centred on) to a major airport. The area of, typically, the densest traffic patterns.

There must have been a lot of very busy controllers flipping other (coming “the other way”) folks to a new flight level and track. And, at the same time co-ordinating with your home-land-security I suspect? Thankfully, they were evidently high enough to look like an “over-flight” . . . until they came out the “other-side” of course.

As Lazerdog suggests . . . Hypoxia sounds like their best defence . . . good luck lads!

Should they even build “commercial transport aircraft” with pullout beds on the flight deck!?
They usually only get used for the “Mile(s)-High-Club” anyway. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ?????

I have professionally (meaning my “job”) watched this “stuff” from the sidelines (ground-side) for over 35-years. Some eventually screw up and get caught . . . most don’t !!!!

Allow me to state my opinion here on what may have happened. Please hear me out. This "theory" (and that's all it is, so please, moderators of this "rumor" forum, do not erase my post, I have something valuable to say here) has not been proposed here in this thread. But it is a far more feasible theory than the "sexual tryst" one that has been floated (and not deleted).

We are a society nowadays where 90% of the population and the workforce are virtual mindless, robotic slaves to one handheld electronic device or another (iphones, blackberries, etc.). Nowhere is this more evident than in the Transportation industry (Planes, Trains, Automobiles). No sooner than does an airplane pull into the gate than the hundred-fifty plus sheep on-board reach for their cell-phones as if their very lives depended upon it. It's instinctual anymore - it's not even a product of actual thought. Out in California earlier this year it was documented that the train conductor was "texting" on his phone prior to the accident. On the roads in this country, driver after driver cannot seem to last 15 minutes without "texting" or talking on their cell-phones, non-stop. "Distracted driving" is now the number one cause of accidents on the road in the U.S. Moreso than weather, or than drugs/alcohol. People display an irrational, compulsive "need" to be constantly texting, phoning, or checking the internet, when they should be giving full attention to their driving responsibilities.

Our society is an "Attention-Deficit-Disordered" one, where people cannot simply FOCUS on the task-at-hand. They cannot BE or LIVE in the PRESENT anymore. As a result, I witness, on a near-DAILY basis, automobile drivers who are so consumed with the "conversation" (or texting) they are having on their e-device, that they narrowly miss plowing me or someone else down with their Yuppie Urban Assault Vehicle. I - as a full-time pedestrian - have come within INCHES of being seriously injured or killed, on so many occasions that I am pretty much counting on it happening to me in my lifetime. Many times, these same individuals are carrying small children in the front/back seat. While they're texting/yapping/internet-surfing...

My "theory" on this incident is that pilots are now exhibiting the same "distracted flying" characteristics. Passengers in the U.S. may not be allowed to use their "personal mobile electronic devices" while in-flight, but European passengers can now. And it's possible that U.S. pilots do, despite the passenger restriction. One or both of these pilots may have been so absorbed in their particular "electronic device", that they paid no attention whatsoever to overshooting the MSP destination. Based upon what I have observed EN-MASSE in car-drivers ... based on the news accounts about mass-transit conductors ... it would not surprise me in the least to find out that airline pilots are now spending a dangerous amount of their cockpit time (and IMO, any time more than 0 seconds qualifies as such) absorbed in "texting" or any other such dumbing-down-device activity. If the rest of the general population exhibits such a mass-addiction to these devices - and as has already been exhibited by other elements of the Transportation industry - then it stands to reason that this infestation of mindless e-device compulsion has now permeated the cockpits of commercial airplanes.

It's fine and dandy for currently active commercial pilots to respond by stating that they do not use their "mobile electronic devices" while in-flight, but that doesn't necessarily mean that one or both of these two pilots in question did not.

Just my opinion. And the general public, the flying public, the industry's employees, and anyone else reading this post, would be wise to consider it. Because it is entirely feasible, nowadays. Sadly.

Pilot Response...
 

Airbubba you're right, I've misspelled the message...

Thanks...:ok:

Oh, really...? Well, I've been flying 20 years too and I'm in a proper quad jet in the 400 seat category engaged in 12+ hrs sectors . . . and if the cabin crew were to call the cockpit every 20 minutes, I'd go downstairs and slap the b!tch. :ooh:

88 minutes no coms and off airway with no fighters scambled. After 9/11 this shows total slackiness. :mad:

I say again: they are MURCAINS.

Do as I say, not as I do.

The astonishing arrogance they manage to sustain in the face of commonsense is manifested in Glueball's post.

No, the power interruption and restoration would be recorded.

I work for a major Australian Airline and we also have a requirement as C/C to check on the flight crew every 20 minutes when out of our sterile flight deck period. In fact often, if the twenty minutes passes the pilots will call the cabin crew. I work on our ultra long haul services and even then this rule applies ALWAYS. It is also required that any service items be removed before landing. I am amazed that for over an hour towards the end of a flight there was no reason for communication between flight deck and cabin. I am also surprised not one of the cabin crew didn't just wanted to see why the flight was an hour late.

Bottom line, if this was caused by human error then there is a MAJOR COMPLACENCY ISSUE that has no place in the air. SCARY STUFF!
:=

Cabin crew to Pilot comms.
 

Hi all I've just been reading this thread as my friend has just told me about this incident and I just knew there would be a thread on PPrune :ok:

Glueball......no sh!t I'm afraid. Some of the more enlightened airlines do have SOP's which require the CC to contact the pilots every 20 minutes (ish) or as soon as practible depending on the wording of their Part E manual. I work for one of them.....a major budget carrier within the UK.

In addition I am also required to do this by interphone initially so as to minimise the time the flight deck door has to be opened. When I do have to open the door (drinks/meals etc) I have to have a "guard" present to stand between me and the cabin. A real pain in the neck sometimes but necessary to try and reduce potential risk whilst the door is open. You know the stuff recognised post 9/11??

As far as I'm aware I'm supposed to contact the flight deck this frequently for the following reasons

• To check you Guys are still alive/not incapacitated
• To maintain effective communication and CRM
• To ensure both pilots "welfare" on long sectors.....I do visit on these occasions as instructed by our manual.
• To see if you need anything at all.....drinks, meals, loo breaks or even just a chat....normal human teamwork things. You guys are shut in a box barricaded by a door. Need I say more?

If this was not happening on this flight then questions need to be asked of the effectiveness of the SOP's/CRM/Communications within the team on this flight.....maybe?

My friend has left my carrier and now works for another UK carrier. Their SOP is that you visit the F/D every 30 mins if you have time and there is no requirement for a guard. If you don't have time (pax service commitments) nobody seems to care and the F/D are contacted when the CC feel they do have time......could be another hour.

Would be really interesting to know which procedure you guys feel is the most workable particularly as one of you (can't remember who) said they would "slap" somebody who contacted them every 20 mins by interphone......why???

Yes I'm aware of the critical stages of flight. I'm also aware of your workload in the descent. This is why I ring you at the top of descent and then don't bother you again other than to hand the "cabin secure".

So what happened on this flight then and why do some of you think CC comms are not an important SOP routinely anyway???

CNN talks to FO (video)
 

A classless interview IMO, but might be helpful.

Co-pilot: No sleeping or arguing in cockpit - CNN.com

rottenray -

Thank you for your kind words, but.....

All the public needs to know is, if required after all the facts are presented, the crew is properly diciplined. The actual content of the CVR should remain in the hands of the investigators ONLY. But, in this day and age, I'm sure the content will come out anyway.

What is the worst case?
 

IMHO the pilots were "instructed" by the company to tell the "distracted by a discussion" story.

This "story" would give to the public the impression that, even though they overshot their landing point, no risk to the passengers was involved.

If the pilots admit they fell asleep, the "damage" to the company would be enormous and the crew rest policy would be raised vigorously.

To the company's point of view, it is better to have "kinda distracted" pilots than to have tired pilots flying around...

No one falls asleep at the controls of anything purposely. People fall asleep because they are VERY tired.

If the pilots got "distracted", this is their (the pilot's) problem. But if they are excessively tired, this is a company's problem...

On a second thought, I believe these pilots are being "pressured" by the whole airline "universe", and I would include the FAA.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

Rob

Lzerdog has suggested, Hypoxia, the only rational explanation so far that accounts for both the incident and the crew's statements. The problem is that had it occurred we would have already heard that the oxygen system had dropped the masks, or at least that some in the back had lost consciousness.

This one is so newsworthy because it is sooo bizarre. A taxiway landing is much easier to comprehend.

Hypoxia could explain it, save for the fact the ATC comm (after the NORDO) I heard on tv had the pilot coming right back with clear and professional acknowledgements and repeats of clearances.

I presume the aircraft was in HDG?

Just as well they were carrying a bucket load of fuel and not planning on laning with CNR!

What were the CC doing?? There always always always ask me for our ETA and god help us if we are a few minutes late!!!:)

But no checks that FD are ok, every 20 mins?

There is a lot more to this than meets the eye!

PPrune at its best again!

We have:

'hypoxia' - despite the fact that the c/crew and pax appear to have been unaffected

'they forgot to programme the arrival into the computer' - heavens above can these guys not FLY? Good job they programmed the computer to taxy out at departure AND take off:ugh:

One US operator (or is it just one US pilot?) appears ' not to care' about post 9/11 security issues.

What we have not yet had is that the A320 would not LET them descend or turn and also shut down their radios - or was it aliens?

CNN - "The lead flight attendant told officers she was unaware there had been an incident aboard, the report said." - classic! He/she was probably asleep as well.

The unique aspect of our business is that you are often only one short lapse, which might last only a second, from disaster or ruin.

Those who make it through a full career without a significant dustup have made a remarkable achievement.

I hope these guys can recover and contribute to their families' and their profession's welfare once again.

If the FAA takes certificate action against and Delta terminates these two gents and, then reality is hardly likely.

Think about... It takes years of experience to get to where these two were in their career.... but micro seconds to have it all vaporized.

Rainboe in the cockpit?
 

I refer of course to the virulently neuro-toxic (and blatantly denied by Boeing) windshield fluid that used to be standard equip in many an aircraft until it was phased out.

I've been awakened 2 hours after going into a sleep cycle having been up for the past 24! - I clearly and succinctly explained how to log in the the system and activate the remote systems. The only thing was, this person was not authorized to have any access whatsoever and had been in fact terminated just hours before, what saved me was that I had totally mangled the system passwords I gave him!! I had really no recollection of the conversation and luckily they started playing it back before I could deny same and I was thus able to claim 'I did it on purpose to allow the bugger to catch himself'

Make no mistake, you can be totally 'out of it' and perform incredibly lucid acts and seem quite coherent but unable to react to 'out of frame' events, like an amber flashing warning light. It does put the whole 'checks and balances' thing totally on its head, and other than (or perhaps in addition to) cognition detection and monitoring devices which I have invented, we perhaps need to ensure that duty rosters are made 'uneven' meaning, a pilot with 10 hrs would be paired with one with just 2 or 3 - and of course commute to work be factored in. This would help to ensure that you dont have two pilots, each responsible for the other as checks and balances, but both knackered.

I would be curious to see if any toxicology tests were done on the pilots, other than the breathalyser (which they both passed) I've been some time concerned about a scenario where pilots (and possibly CC and PAX) being exposed to toxic incapacitating agents. At low doses, the only symptoms would be a narrowing of vision, extra salivation (drooling) and mental decognition - higher dosages of course, convulsions, cessation of breathing, involuntary bowel movements and death.

It may well be as GreenEyedTraveler stated pre-occupation/distraction (possibly enhanced by lack of sleep) not enough to cause overt nodding off, but enough to cause disabling in much the way that alcohol would.

I expect this case to be spun much like "missing your exit on the freeway" - the pilots will be disciplined in some minor way but be back in the air by years end. The administration will go along with pushing it under the carpet (lest the struggling economic 'recovery'* sputters and stalls)



*what recovery? why the one where the banks made record profits, despite being bankrupt only months and weeks before! while unemployment approaches 11% like a pedophile approaches kids in a playground!

I wouldn't bet the farm on that. While unrelated incidents, but two with the same carrier in the same week.

I'm curious to know how ALPA will deal with this and the inadvertent taxiway arrival incident.

It has been noted that the crew had a 19 hour layover and was on day 2 of a five day trip. As they were Minneapolis-based, they would have started the trip the day before and made their way to San Diego, a two hour time zone change. No excuse for not being rested, right?

I don't know about others, but I've always had difficulty adjusting to the 18-24 hour layover, particularly with 2 hour or more time zone changes. This crew would have arrived late in the evening the night before and gone to bed, tired and being on a Minneapolis-time body clock. Going to bed on their natural sleep cycle would probably result in waking up at 8 AM or so with a full day, unable to sleep, before showing up that evening for a full duty cycle, then performing a longish, 4-5 hour cross country flight. Regardless of how much time off they had, they were probably tired when they started (fatigued?)

For me, 13-14 hours is the right layover time. That allows a relaxed meal, some socializing maybe, a little reading, Ppruning or TV, and a full rest from which I can awake ready to go to work, alert and rested. Too much outside those parameters and adjustments must be made, and those adjustments are not always easy to make, nor do they always go as planned. Goes with the territory, I suppose, and we all have to tough it out sometimes.

I'm not concluding that this was a factor on this flight, just that it's something to think about, and maybe provide a little more encouragement to make rest a priority, and if too fatigued to fly, whether one has a good excuse or not, dont.

The copilot is on record having said they weren´t sleeping, they weren´t arguing, they weren´t fighting. They passed the breath test, so they weren´t drinking. So, what were they doing?

The last sentence of this Wall Street Journal article suggests "another theory more likely than dozing off" without elaborating further:

NTSB to Interview Northwest Pilots - WSJ.com

What ever the distraction, I´m inclined to expect something embarrassing by now. If it wasn´t, they would have come out with it already.

I thinks a hearing will be convened on Tuesday. We should have some interesting details then.

For all those bleating why the cabin crew didn´t call the pilots, and for those who´d slap their CC (hot flight management there glueball) for calling, from post #91:

"Would you guys like a night cap?"

Good recall JUUD: Assuredly, this must be good news for the thousands of Freight Dog pilots who are still having to fly without cabin crew to make coffee and ding-dong their cockpits every 20 minutes! :D

- do I assume they are locking the flight deck door?:ugh:

Jeez - I've seen some really agressive cardboard boxes.

From a friend who works at NWA. Things are pointing toward missing a hand off, a bad microphone and or radio, possibly not setting the up the radio heads correctly and poor no-radio procedures.

I think you should add 'and deficient navigational skills'?

EVERY jet pilot knows you start descent about 20 minutes before landing, surely?

Ben there...

yes I agree with you...13-14 hour overnights are about right. 10 hours at the hotel minimum in my eyes. More is a waste of my productivity...less and i'm not up to snuff for flying the next day.

I take what the pilots have said at face value. I hope they write up a a nice NASA form with the truth.

I hope they don't have any punishment against them except to make a video about what happened so others don't screw up.

I've seen pilots ''zone out'' before. Sad and funny.

BOAC Know you're only kidding, but I have seen crabs(large!) and snakes in the cabin on pax a/c; heard of horses, large cats (leopards I think), monkeys, parrots loose in cargo cabin; and real live robbers in suitcases in baggage holds.
Not to mention refugees in wheel wells.
Be careful, you are not alone up there (sometimes).

Just curious, are there two or three VHF's, two or three audio select's, and multiple mic's on that airplane?

Lets see... missing a handoff for 1:10 minutes plus? Ooooo kay.?.?

While at it, not that I'm suggesting it, but on the surface, to the casual observer it could appear that NWA SOPs may not have been adhered to:confused:. It may appear to the gallery that there was a loss of Situational Awareness:confused:. It also seems that they may not have followed Loss Communications Procedures, that is, if they had Situational Awareness as it related to their prediciment:confused::suspect::confused:.

How do you explain the above to the passengers, fellow crewmembers, that entrusted their lives in the hands of the flightcrew, let alone the company, and the FAA?

Looks like it's gonna be a pretty hard sell. Hope they can pull a rabbit out of their hats.

ACARS???
 

How many ACARS messages were sent to the crew? How did all those get missed?

You've all got it wrong. They loaded DTW, their other hub, iso MSP into the FMS. The error only came to light when the F/A intervened.

Can somebody remind me where the rumor about arguning about company proceedures came from?

Unfortunately I was accepting this as second hand fact.:ouch: