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Have I missed something earlier?
Is the airline I'm I working for the only one that requires cabin crew to check with the flight deck every 20 minutes on intercom? Definitely not at my airline, but it's a GOOD idea! |
Definitely not at my airline, but it's a GOOD idea! Only the invincible ones won't bring this SOP in. The ones I wouldn't want to pax with!!! :D |
Apologies if off-topic, but it seems that there was something vaguely similar (no contact) in Europe today.
Links in Danish: Københavnerfly udløste stor-alarm - Politiken.dk Basic jist is: TAP A320 flying Lisbon-Copenhagen flew for approximately 30 minutes whilst unresponsive to/not in contact with the ground. It covered around 400km in this time and was met by a couple of German F4's. They're investigating a possible technical failure, but the crew was apparently not in contact with the cabin during this period either (although of course it's possible that they chose not to inform the pax of what the problem was). |
From Nation & World | Off course, out of touch: What were Northwest Airlines Flight 188 pilots doing? | Seattle Times Newspaper
"I can assure you none of us was asleep," Cole told ABC News on Friday night. He declined to comment further but added, "I am not doing very good." Cole elaborated in an interview Friday night with The Associated Press: "All I'm saying is we were not asleep; we were not having a fight; there was nothing serious going on in the cockpit that would threaten the people in the back at all." He declined to discuss what exactly happened but did insist "it was not a serious event, from a safety issue." "I can't go into it, but it was innocuous." Not asleep, no fight...were they having sex?!? |
I work for a major English airline, and our SOPs call for the cabin crew to make contact or come in to the "office" every 15/20 minutes. Not only is it good for CRM but it also keeps one on one's toes. All my friends who fly for the bigger Uk airlines have a similar policy. I guess it hasn't caught on with our junior colleagues on the other side of the pond yet. Maybe when we are as good as our American friends we can try to do it on our own as well.
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I was jumpseating an Australasian carrier over the Indian Ocean, and the flight crew were writing down and crosschecking waypoints and freqs on a legal pad. They noted it was both to stay focused as well as make sure the right data was in the computer. Yeah, you can still doze between checks, but beats just reading.
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the other guys are MURCAINS We have a non-white president, elected freely and fairly by all the people. Get over it. Sorry, folks, just trying to confuse a troll. Seriously, I think every 20 minutes is a bit much. What are the odds, over a 5 hour flight, that the call would cause you to miss a radio call, or interrupt some other operation. On the A320, the call signal is quite intrusive, and even without required check-ins, we get two or three calls from the cabin per flight on average. This particular story is in the news today, and it has received a lot of attention. But how many times has this happened over millions of flights each year? I think some perspective is called for. Let's learn from it, sure. And there is a big difference between calling for the facts to come out before rendering judgment, and knee-jerk defense of the pilots. |
I was jumpseating an Australasian carrier over the Indian Ocean, and the flight crew were writing down and crosschecking waypoints and freqs on a legal pad. They noted it was both to stay focused as well as make sure the right data was in the computer. Yeah, you can still doze between checks, but beats just reading The world is mad. Airbridges in the UK have locks and numbers and card type access. Two hours later in Spain, all bridges are unlocked, come and go as you wish. Thread creep, I know! := |
With increasing numbers of pilots apparently dozing off, and a near-total absence of terrorism on board, I have to wonder if the extreme measures separating the flight deck from the rest of the aircraft are really a good idea. I thought the circumstances of the Helios Airways flight were very exceptional, but it's starting to look as though similar situations may be close to cropping up fairly frequently.
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near-total absence of terrorism on board, I have to wonder if the extreme measures separating the flight deck from the rest of the aircraft are really a good idea. |
I have to wonder what exactly motivates the media to cover one story but not another? |
Sleep or Freq?
Consider the news reports:
They had flown through the night with no response as air traffic controllers in two states and pilots of other planes over a wide swath of the mid-continent tried to get their attention by radio, data message and cell phone. Not only couldn't air traffic controllers and other pilots raise the Northwest pilots for an hour, but the airline's dispatcher should have been trying to reach them as well. Air traffic controllers in Denver had been in contact with the pilots as they flew over the Rockies, FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said. But as the plane got closer to Minneapolis, she said, "The Denver center tried to contact the flight but couldn't get anyone." Denver controllers notified their counterparts in Minneapolis, who also tried to reach the crew without success, Brown said. Officials suspect Flight 188's radio might still have been tuned to a frequency used by Denver controllers even though the plane had flown beyond their reach, said Church, the spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Union. Controllers worked throughout the incident with the pilots of other planes, asking them to try to raise Flight 188 using the Denver frequency, he said. Two pilots flying in the vicinity were also finally able to raise the Northwest pilots using a Denver traffic control radio frequency instead of the local Minneapolis frequency. Review snaproll3480's experience: While on a flight from Canada to NY (intentional vagueness), ATC had inadvertantly miscommunicated our flight number from one center to another. Now this wasn't simply a dislexic transcription but an entirely different call sign with an admittedly similar but not easily recognizable flight number. Our phantom callsign was given a frequency change without response and we continued on our way. It was not until I knew it was time to descend that I queried why we had not been given the expected descent. ATC responded by asking who we were and our position. I told them our callsign again and our position and was told to contact another frequency which I recognized as the next one in sequence. After contacting them they also aked who we were and our callsign. After some figuring, they realized that they had the incorrect callsign and had been trying to contact us for some time. Throughout this episode we never received a selcal, acars message, or any other form of alert as to the mistake because they were probably trying to alert the wrong airline about a lost airplane that didn't exist. Do you vote sleep or frequency? |
Hey.....Perwazee.....
What I find incredulous is when some of the morons on this board say “...While this COULD have been an accident of major proportions, it was NOT. There is no Earthly reason to release the CVR to the news media where it will get completely misconstrued.” That’s the mentality we have: if it didn’t turn in to a catastrophe, then let’s not do much about it. |
As for the CVR, why is it that we live in a world where a five year old can Google his way through the moons surface, yet CVR's only record a few hours max? In this day and age this is simply inexcusable! In some instances more than two hours are required in order to find the beginning of the error chain. I wonder at what point they pulled the CB on the CVR as well, delaying that until shutdown at the gate has erased important information in the past, not through any deliberate act, just because it's not exactly a priority item if you're trying to get a damaged aircraft safely down. |
Re sex, was thinking the same thing...
...be interesting to find out if one of the pilots (no doubt the less superior) was younger and somewhat good looking and hit upon by his superior. A world first: Mile high homoerotic behavior by a flight crew! If this really is the explanation, the humiliation will be unbearable! The passengers will probably find it all a little amusing being it all turned out nicely from a safety standpoint. Stiff punishment for the guys though... Tut tut! ;) (Cue all manner of jokes and puns blending such behavior with the profession!)
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anti terror security
we have a big fricking bar on the door...one pilot has to leave his seat to get up and open the door to let in a f/a.
so...instead of this...why not just asign one FA to the flight deck for the whole flight? She should be really good looking and smell nice. Her job is to make sure the boys look at the instruments and make good landings. She can give out snacks along the way for good performance. The pilots can bark once in awhile. Seriously. I've resorted (with the other pilot) to singing the FLINTSTONES theme song to keep alert. And my airline is famous for short haul. Heck, I've sung the whole ABC network early 1960's lineup on the shuttle from KBOS to KLGA. And I've also flown from KLGA to KBOS in 24 minutes...how would that 20 minute rule work in that situation? And knock off the idea of homosexual sex in the cockpit. I take it at face value...the guys started talking about something and it was a heck of a conversation. and as I mentioned in another thread, if it is hard to hear in the cockpit or hearing problems (and we have all lost hearing), you turn towards the other pilot to sort of read lips as well as hear...and then you don't look at the instrument panel. understand, comprende, ????? and everyone out there has screwed up or will screw up...so be careful. |
There was talk after the AF accident over the Atlantic that having a decent satellite uplink to transmit such data would be good, but again, it's $$$ for something that hopefully would rarely be needed. |
They should have their certs lifted - today - and never fly professionally again.
On the other hand, they're probably the least likely pilots on the planet to do such a dumb thing ever again if they do keep their jobs. |
Well... before they even think about keeping their jobs, the have to need to have justify before the FAA why they are safe and dedicated airmen and why they should not have their tickets lifted.
If and only if the FAA says OK... then they are also going to have to do the same song and dance routine before the powers that bee at Delta. If they are violated, and lose their jobs, then off to Wal Mart:mad:. If the FAA allows them to keep their tickets, and are fired by Delta, then their records will be duly notated for reason for dismissal, and made available to future prospective employers under Pilot Record Information Act. ALPA is going to have to pull a rabbit out of their hat in order to successfully defend these two chaps:suspect::ugh:. |
This diatribe is making me tired..........tired enough to fall asleep:=
Rgds The Moss:ok: |
Protecthehornet mentions that there is a substantial bar on the door, and that even to let a flight attendant in with coffee or other stimulants, one guy has to get up to let her in.
The rest of the time are you just stuck in the office? I know on very long flights with extra crew there are bunks available for rest. Is it no longer permitted to have one of the flight crew take a walk and greet the pax? Walking around helps us to stay awake in the back and keep the circulation going. And of course there is another resource, those paying for the ride have an interest in safe arrival. Do UAL still let us listen in to channel 9? I take great interest in all RT, and keep an eye on that cute little moving map on the back of the seat. If I noticed a peculiar deviation from track, if the chaps up front didn't explain nicely, would certainly ask flight attendants if there is a problem. Passengers are an underutilised resource, many of us also have flying experience. Even a back seat passenger can sound the alarm if the driver dozes off. |
A Solution
It would be simple to generate a parameter based off the DADC's and the ships clock to call out "COCK-A-DOODLE-DOO" every 15 minutes through the EGPWS computer.
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Why is everyone rushing to judgement when all we know is the aircraft over flew its last waypoint but landed safely? Perhaps the arrival page wasn’t programmed or activated but the investigation will tell us so please wait before passing judgement..
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Why is everyone rushing to judgement when all we know is the aircraft over flew its last waypoint but landed safely? Perhaps the arrival page wasn’t programmed or activated but the investigation will tell us so please wait before passing judgement.. From an ATC perspective (specifically the one I'm married to), these guys were on an IFR flight plan, and whatever the underlying reason, flew 150 miles in controlled airspace without having a clearance to do so. Even if they'd lost all comms, they'd have been expected to follow the established procedure to approach and land at Minneapolis, as the flight plan called for. That much is fact, and I haven't heard anyone say otherwise... |
They would have communicated with ATC by several methods if they knew they had lost com. I have done it a couple of times in an airliner when they forgot to hand us off and we flew out of radio range.
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Ditchdigger
Ah most airlines SOP’s do not program or activate the approach page until prior to the TOD. Unless the approach page is activated the TOD cue will not occur, the aircraft will revert to heading/altitude hold mode at the last entered waypoint with the accompanying audio/mode changes indications. As I said previously no one has any idea what actually happened and won’t know until the investigation is completed so why rush to judgement on news media reports. |
Autopilots
I understand a flight plan is loaded in the box prior to dep, with waypoints right up to the expected arrival runway When autopilot is selected it follows the flight level and way points to dest. What happens when the a/c reaches the descent point if the pilots do not take over? The NWA a/c apparently carried on flying in a straight line beyond MSP. I am surprised there would not have been an audio alert at the descent point or thereabouts - an electronic "HELP! Do something!" If no one touched the controls would an aircraft continue in a straight line until it ran out of fuel? Luckily they had enough for this "alternate" field!
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Ditchdigger Ah most airlines SOP’s do not program or activate the approach page until prior to the TOD. Unless the approach page is activated the TOD cue will not occur, the aircraft will revert to heading/altitude hold mode at the last entered waypoint with the accompanying audio/mode changes indications. As I said previously no one has any idea what actually happened and won’t know until the investigation is completed so why rush to judgement on news media reports. I don't think my post can be characterized as a rush to judgement, but this is an internet discussion forum, and speculation is part and parcel of what goes on here. If you find it more acceptable, I'm speculating that the FAA is likely to have a problem with that lack of clearance. |
"When I first started with my airline, we had to monitor our company GUARD frequency. A vhf freq for our airline. We had to keep the volume up and the speaker selected. Modern ways should not have changed such simple precautions"
Well, in '86 when I started at my carrier, we had no ACARS or SELCAL. For "operational control" we (meaning the F/O) had to monitor company frequency ALL the time. Now imagine how many missed calls you get going into LAX, when the F/O is running the ATC radios and listening to a company frequency that is the same for LAX, SNA, ONT, BUR, SAN, and LAS, with everyone calling in out/off/on/in/fuel numbers/ETAs. Remember, no ACARS, and we had to call everything. (No I don't work for Southwest...) You'd be doing well if you only missed a couple of ATC calls per leg in the LAX basin. As soon as I upgraded, I told my F/Os to NOT monitor company frequency until out of the LAX area. That cut the number of missed radio calls by a huge margin. |
Ditchdigger
Until an investigation determines exactly what happened the FAA isn’t even considering the violation of airspace. It shouldn’t happen, no one wants it to happen, but it isn’t a big deal in a modern radar environment. Airline pilots won’t and don’t speculate on incidents or accidents until all the facts are known unlike all the nonsense you read on these forums. |
These guys were asleep, if not then this is such a serious breach of airmanship it deems them completely unprofessional. A sad day when a two crew operation fails to land at the intended aerodrome. If they were asleep then perhaps their fatigue management system was ineffectual.
But to say they were in a heated discussion.....Yeh right. A complete lack of credibility, at best a complete breakdown of SOP's and CRM, let alone Threat and Error Management. Either way when the truth is revealed then hopefully this never occurs again. |
Unless you know at departure what your likely landing approach is the approach normally isn't loaded into the computer. On arrival you get a pretty good idea of your arrival so can program it. That gives you your VNAV data and backs up your descent. Since these pilots were out of the loop over 30 minutes out no approach was inserted.. Therefore instead of doing the Athens profile and entering holding they went to heading hold. The hearing will be interesting. Hope the best for these guys but they have a lot of explaining to do.
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DC-ATE Writes: I did NOT say DON'T do anything about it. I merely said the tapes should not be released to the public. That is not their purpose. Wonderkid writes: Re sex, was thinking the same thing... ...be interesting to find out if one of the pilots (no doubt the less superior) was younger and somewhat good looking and hit upon by his superior. A world first: Mile high homoerotic behavior by a flight crew! If this really is the explanation, the humiliation will be unbearable! The passengers will probably find it all a little amusing being it all turned out nicely from a safety standpoint. Stiff punishment for the guys though... Tut tut! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/wink2.gif (Cue all manner of jokes and puns blending such behavior with the profession!) windytoo writes: Maybe when we are as good as our American friends we can try to do it on our own as well. The only folks who seem to be prospering at this point are those who buy tickets based on price alone. They're generally folks who think "flap" is something a wing does, instead of part of it.:ugh: ... |
Would it be possible to pull the CVR circuit breaker for a few minutes - so they could agree on a cover-up story between them, for instance - and then push the c/b back in, without anyone noticing?
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Very good point... DC-ATE The voice content on the tape is not at issue. It's what lead to a complete breakdown in SOPs and total loss of situational awareness.
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... it says here on page 2 that the airline is offering each passenger a 500 $ voucher for future travel with the airline, so obviously they are embarrassed by the episode...
Off-target pilots' licenses are in peril | StarTribune.com |
Ditchdigger Until an investigation determines exactly what happened the FAA isn’t even considering the violation of airspace. It shouldn’t happen, no one wants it to happen, but it isn’t a big deal in a modern radar environment... A spokeswoman for the FAA, Laura Brown, said her agency had sent "letters of investigation" to both pilots, Capt. Timothy B. Cheney and first officer Richard I. Cole, notifying them that the incident could lead to the emergency revocation or suspensions of their licenses within days. Airline pilots won’t and don’t speculate on incidents or accidents until all the facts are known unlike all the nonsense you read on these forums. Aviation analysts, puzzled by the unusually long gap of silence, wondered whether the pilots could have been sleeping. |
Since all the aspects of this flight seem inconceivable, I wonder if it would be worth checking out the flight deck pressurization system on that particular aircraft. Hypoxia would certainly explain the behaviors noted, including the attempted explanation by the crew.
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Pilot Respond...
B777 has the "Pilot Respond" EICAS message popping out after 20 minutes of inactivity; at 22nd minute activates the Master Caution and at 23rd minute activates the Master Warning (same aural warning like for the Auto Pilot disengagement)... Quite effective way to prevent prolonged nodding...
I like it... |
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