Ryanair Captain dismissed for promoting unions
 

A UK based Captain has been dismissed today for promoting union membership with cabin crew. The company accuses him of compromising safety (??)

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is happening here, in the UK, in 2009.

I have taken the liberty to start this thread separately from the other RYR threads, as I believe this requires every pilot's attention, from ANY airline.

The fellow pilot is known within the RYR pilot's community to be exemplary in his job, very experienced and highly regarded. I wish to give him all my support and solidarity here.

The aim for RYR's management is quite simple – instigate fear amongst us! Shame on you Molly. The BALPA campaign is very strong and is gaining great support, the management are now resolving to desperate measures. This is the time to keep a cool head and continue supporting the campaign.

Fellow Ryanair pilots, the time has come to make a difference, to change the system, to liberate ourselves from the bullies. Please join BALPA now, together we will make the difference, together we will face the opposition.

You will later this year be asked to take part in a vote for or against BALPA. I believe this is our last true chance to stop the rot, make no mistake. Remember this vote is confidential, you don't even need to be a member of BALPA.

There is only one bullet left, it's not a magic one, but it's our last bullet!

BALPA - Home

Could you enlighten us as to exactly what charge in the list of "gross misconduct" offences he was found to be guilty of ?
I assume if he is out the door that is what is being intimated, can't imagine they left themselves so wide open as to dismiss him with some vague accusation outside the scope of the company regs, even if the "charge" is :hmm: a little tenous.
Oh dear, and after the`concillatory post directed at Leo I made on the other thread just 10 min ago . . . . . I sense a storm much worse than AF447 suffered brewing. . . . . batten down the hatches.
How horribly unnecessary, predictable, and unfortunately , entirely in character, this whole affair is playing out. :D Uh Ah / := :ugh:

The thing is, pilots are a notoriously easy bunch to divide and conquer. Offer one a few quid more and he'll take it. How many f/o hands went up when they were looking for someone to fill that guys seat.
Also, if rumour has it right, theres 200+ pilots in MO'Ls holding pool of 'aerosexuals' as he called them, chomping at the bit to get in. And in 12m I might be one!
So how come you're rallying the Ryanair troops - from Florida?! Are you flying with FR?
It would take almost every pilot in FR to down tools, or simultaneously join BALPA, to suceed.
And there'll always be turncoats - how will you deal with them?!:hmm:
And if I'd spent 70k-100k on training and was offered a job, I hate to admit it, but yeah, I'd have to take the job I'd have no choice.:sad:

Can't he sue them for that - what he did isn't unconstitutional?
(But it might be in at odds with his contract??)

I personally don't think going after Mugabellew is the solution. Spending those resources to out one only to be replaced by another.

Keep at the support, does everyone want RYR to continue like this?? or do you want change?

inveritas
I know you don't like him, but believe me his predecessors were really a lot less charming.
So, was he sacked for taking sickies ? or what are you on about ?
This is actually very serious, for anyone actually working there & in posssesion of a brain, so please don't reduce it to a personal hate-fest to the detriment of the majority.

SVA did this very thing with a group of ex-Eastern Air Lines pilots a few years ago.
Called 'em all into the office (about forty in number) and they were told, point blank...'any more discussion about any sort of 'union' or 'association' and we will terminate the lot of you, right now.'

All 'union' discussion ceased, forthwith.

Don't care what company you're in...or the country, airline managements today have the upper hand.
The stack of applications in the HR department would, I firmly expect, cover all vacancies.

Think otherwise?
Try it and see.

BALPA?
A BA (and perhaps a few others, BMI, for example) entity, in all respects.
Otherwise, a paper tiger, nothing more, nor less.

All good and well in the good old USA, but not strictly legal in Europe.

The following is a dissemination of the Employments Relations Act 2004 and the Employemnt Act 2008. Taken from the Department for Business Innovation and Skills. (A UK Governernment body).


Trade union membership, activities and related matters

Right to belong to a trade union

Some individuals may wish to belong to a trade union and they enjoy certain protections where they do so.

All employees have the right:-

not to be dismissed, or selected for redundancy, for being a member of an independent trade union (2) or for proposing to become a member; and
not to be dismissed, or selected for redundancy, for failing to accept an offer made by their employer with the sole or main purpose of inducing them not to be or become a trade union member.
In addition, all employees and other workers have the right:

not to be subjected to a detriment by their employer to prevent or deter them from belonging to an independent trade union or from seeking to become a member, or to penalise them for so doing;
not to be made an offer by their employer where the sole or main purpose of the offer is to induce them not to be, or seek to become, a member; and
not to be subjected to a detriment for failing to accept such an offer.

Right to take part in trade union activities

Individuals have protection relating to their trade union activities.

All employees have the following rights relating to their trade union activities:

not to be dismissed, or chosen for redundancy, for taking part, or proposing to take part, in the activities of an independent trade union at an appropriate time;
not to be dismissed, or chosen for redundancy, because they failed to accept an offer made by their employer with the sole or main purpose of inducing them not to take part in the activities of an independent trade union at an appropriate time.

In addition, all employees and other workers have the right:

not to be subjected to a detriment by their employer to prevent or deter them from taking part in trade union activities at an appropriate time, or to penalise them for doing so;
not to be made an offer by their employer where the sole or main purpose of the employer is to induce them not to take part in an independent trade union’s activities at an appropriate time; and
not to be subjected to a detriment for failing to accept such an offer.
What are union activities?
The kinds of union activity in which an employee may take part are not set out in law. However, union activities involving an employee acting on behalf of the union, for instance as a shop steward representing a union that is recognised for collective bargaining purposes, would be covered, as would activities connected with the election or appointment of union officials.

Right to make use of union services

All employees have the following rights relating to the use they make of their union’s services:

not to be dismissed, or chosen for redundancy, for making use, or proposing to make use, of the services of an independent trade union at an appropriate time; and
not to be dismissed, or chosen for redundancy, because they failed to accept an offer made by their employer with the sole or main purpose of inducing them not to use the services of an independent trade union at an appropriate time.

In addition, all employees and other workers have the right:

not to be subjected to a detriment by their employer to prevent or deter them from using their union’s services at an appropriate time or to penalise them for doing so;
not to be made an offer by their employer where the sole or main purpose is to induce them not to make use of an independent trade union’s services at an appropriate time; and
not to be subjected to a detriment by their employer for failing to accept such an offer





Sounds like this Captain needs union representation!

What has happened here is obvious. The Captain was sacked for his union promoting activities (bearing in mind the current tension levels between management and the pilots, this is a very sensitive issue), however to cover themselves (or try to !), the memo seems to suggest that by taking part in activities such as discussing union membership with cabin crew on the flight deck and issuing them with union membership forms at work, this prevented them or distracted them from carrying out their normal duties in full, and as such had an impact on flight safety, hence the "gross misconduct" charge.

It is unlikely to stand up in court at an unfair dismissal hearing, but the damage has been done, the message sent, and Ryanair will take the view (as they always do) that they will do what they like anyway, and even if they lose and have to shell out a few thousand, the wider impact of their actions will have been felt by the pilot workforce. They would simply regard it as money well spent and financially a drop in the ocean.

So if the cabin crew come into the flight deck during flight with hot drinks etc, and we ask them about what they did the previous night or where they went on holiday, this is presumably "distracting them from their duties" and therefore a hazard to flight safety as well ? ........

Pathetic !!!


:ugh:

FOR GOD's SAKE! STRIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why on Earth do ANY of you put op with this 19th century slavery?! Don't you FR guys have any self-respect?!
One of the most important things in being a professional and safe flight-crew member is having a backbone, it seems that FR pilots are just jellyfish...

I might be wrong but when one is "at work" during duty time one is usually contrated to exclusively do the work of one's employer and is usually excluded from doing work for another body.

Doing work for BALPA (or any other organisation) in work time where such activities were not agreed with the employer would be a breach of contract.

Why did this Captain not realise this and confine such activities to outside work time?

As for the "safety" issue - most airlines (and I expect Ryanair also) have a sterile cockpit requirement when below 10,000 in the last 1,000ft of climb or descent and when moving on the ground. I bet that every pilot could be pulled up on safety grounds under this requirement.

Nothing against the poor Captain involved but people need to put their brain in gear and go about things the right way to get the result they desire.

Regards,

DFC

DFC, thanks for your rather sanctimonious post ....

So have you never spoken to cabin crew about anything other than "work related" topics in the cruise then ?

Bet you're a barrel of laughs to fly with !

I think most people exercising any common sense or sound judgement, can see this exercise for what it really is.

Read my last paragraph again .....





:*

I hope to god enough of you vote for union recognition. Ignore the likes of Leo and his mates who bleat on about how useless BALPA/IALPA are. You'll notice they are all sat fat dumb and selfish in the LHS, enjoying remuneration the vast majority in FR will never achieve. Leo and his well paid like in FR don't want union recognition because, wait for it, it might end up costing them a few pence, during the wailing-and-knashing-of-teeth aftermath/backlash in O'Pikey's office that is surely to take place if you guys actually succeed. Maybe a short term hit on T&Cs. Of course, long term, collective representation results in a more stable working environment and protects the Terms and Conditions in both seats. But why would a select few of the highest paid captains at FR want that? They are all right, Jack. A vocal minority. Sod the rest of you.

The truth from my experience of BALPA so far, working for an orange rival of FR, is that on the whole they are fairly toothless. But that is an irrelevance. The point is, in ezy, BA, etc etc collective representation exists, however imperfect it may be. And that is why the likes of ezy, again far from ideal, remains a stable and reasonable working environment. The only reason for this is collective representation.

Can FR Pilots Strike NOW?
 

despegue - You are aware that unless you are part of a recognised Union, then it is not legal to strike. Hence why the recognition MUST go thorugh. The worst the pilots can do right now is ALL take a sick day together, and ALL work 'TO RULE'.

Be aware that a 'Non-vote' counts as a 'NO' vote.

The vote WILL come this year and there is nothing that can be done.

The Captain in question is a very well regarded person in and out of the work place. This is a person who is a true proffesional and hasa never put a foot out of line, EVER! This person was also very much 'onside' with management.

If they are prepared to get rid of someone who is a near 'Model Employee', then what is there to stop them getting rid of ANYONE.

The first stone has been thrown, and all those people that are worried about loosing their jobs if they stand up and be counted when it comes to an ANONOMOUS VOTE, then just think, the company will shoot anyone in the back at anytime. You have no rights and protections UNLESS YOU VOTE 'YES'.
Regardless of what the outcome will be with a Union, it can no way be any worse then being saked for telling cabin crew that they need legal protection, because sure as you and I are breathing air, if something happens on that aircraft, it will be anyone's fault but the company, and if you don't have a Union's legal protection, guess who will be footing the bill when Ryanair Sue you!

Just a thought..................

If this sorry tale is as cut and dried as it appears to be then the pilot has every chance of winning a court case.

Will BALPA back him?

Talking about union membership would be a work related topic. I talk about all sorts - work related or not.

However, handing out forms on behalf of an organisation is doing the work of that organisation and a totally different thing.

Nothing wrong with talking about issues but as I said while employed by organisation A it is normal to be excluded during work time from doing the work of organisation B.

When you have a union you will see that time off during working hours for union duties are very much laid down in black and white and subject to agreement.

Regards,

DFC

However unfortunate for the chap who got fired, but is not the ideal oppertunity for BALPA to stand up?
If they support him and BALPA helps him to take Ryanair to court it would give out a sign to all RYR pilots; we will help you against MOL....

Quote ::But why would a select few of the highest paid captains at FR want that? They are all right, Jack. A vocal minority. Sod the rest of you.

So please tell me ? As you believe so highly in UNITY, how do you and balpa intend to support him ? I would like to think that you will be one of the first to put your hand in your pocket. or are you all talk and no different to me , Which I admit is look after myself first because i don't expect you to do so.:)

Unbelievable.....I thought the UK and/or Ireland were in the EU?
Everyone in the civilized part of the world had a basic RIGHT to be a member of a union.

In the country I live in, it would be soooooooow unacceptable if any employer behaved in this manner. It would backfire and create such a publicity mess that no company would even try to go there. It does not matter whether you make furniture, sell used cars of fly airplanes for a living.

Could someone explain why FR can get away with this? Or any UK or Irish company for that matter?

DFC

Google the following:

Hansard employment law

Read the UK Employment Acts 1996 & 2002, and try to understand the permissible nature of undertaking union activities, organising the workforce etc.

I assume by your tone, you have never picked up a newspaper, discussed your forthcoming holiday or even asked your colleagues how their day is going.

What a boring fellow.

This would appear to be the opportunity for BALPA to step up to the plate: let's see how they respond and take that as an indication of their effectiveness.

The Real Slim Shady

Totally agreed.

If this Captain was a paid up member of BALPA, they should stand up to to these bullies. I will watch the actions of BALPA with great interest. If they cave in over this I for one will cancel my BALPA membership. ID cards, well will they have the balls to make a stand?

If the guy in question was a BA line pilot, BA crews would most probably been out on strike by now, if he was not reinstated.

DFC, you are still missing the point !

How were his actions deemed to be A FLIGHT SAFETY ISSUE ?!

(for which he was dismissed on the spot - the union leaflets would have been a disciplinary hearing, the flight safety issues were thrown in to try and justify the company's actions at the industrial tribunal that will almost certainly follow )

PS
Wonder who shopped him ? Not much "unity" there .....

'Pour encourager les autres'
 

The following phrase sprang to mind :-

'Pour encourager les autres' is a quote from Voltaire's 'Candide', often used in the context of political punishment and persecution.

The phrase 'pour encourager les autres' has subsequently entered the language, and is frequently used in the media whenever the official punishment for an act has seemed to be out of proportion to the act itself, or where the punishment has an element of political bias to it (in order to encourager les autres to shut up and keep their heads down). In these gentler times the term is often applied to sackings, or footballers who have been given a red card.

So there you have it........

The cause of union recognition in Ryanair was a fight that took place and was lost many years ago. BALPA came, played by the rules and took a beating that from those of us in Ryanair was embarrassing. They were outclassed outplayed and ran with their tail between there legs. Now Ryanair pilots themselves are responsible for this not BALPA being naive. What I find amusing is the same management now perceive a threat that I personally think is non existent. The paranoia is simply astounding. What threat ? what union ? . Are the trying to distract us from the fact that we took a shafting in April. Gave up productivity for free (A/L, LTC, No pay rise). All UK bases were frozen last week no transfers, no upgrades, was there a whimper was there :mad:. O'Lolly loses close to a billion in cocked up hedging and aer lingus shares.....is it mentioned No. We will be doing CDA approachs for a long time to make that kind of dough back. Anyway bottom line we are all sheep, admit it know it now get back into the flock with me like good boys...Baaaaa:}

Not strictly true. If you are not a member of the union which balloted on the action, then you have no legal protection against disciplinary action by your employer should you strike. That's not quite the same as illegal.

The quite typical reply I would expect from a pilot not employed by the airline under discussion, and therefore unaffected by any sort of industrial action there...legal or not.
I would then wonder...would the poster with the above listed quote care to put his job on the line to enable 'better' employee relations at FR?

No?
Thought not.:}

I never said that there was a flight safety issue.

The same thing applies if you are working in an office or working on a farm. When employed by an employer the employer has the right to expect that during your working hours while being paid you are working exclusively for them unless they agree otherwise. Handing out leaflets for an organisation is doing work for that organisation.

The fact that BALPA was not paying this person to hand out the leaflets does not detract from the fact that they were working for BALPA.

Had the pilot spoken with people and said "see me after work and I will give you a leaflet" then there can not be a problem since people have the right to talk about anything they like and it would be alsmost impossible to prove that such "talk" affected the work being done.

Finally I expect that UK employment law will have no effect on this matter if the pilot was employed in Ireland or was "self employed".

Regards,

DFC

Handing out leaflets.......??

What about 'recognition roulette' that was posted on the internal web system as a 'must read' document along with real safety related issues/documents?? i assume 99% of pilots read this 'safety' related pile of horse s**t when they reported for work........and im sure they read it there and then,certainly eating into the 45min report time,when flight plans,weather briefing and other 'safety' related tasks should be completed.....

As i have said on my (1) previous post,im still unsure about BALPA,but something like this,where one of the 'good' guys gets targeted,well,it makes you think,it cant get much worse.......

My thoughts go out to the captain,ive flown with him many a time,hes a good operator,a safe operator and a really nice chap also.a real loss.

good luck buddy.

It's abou ttime...
 

That you soft lot on 'mol's' bouncy castle don't stand the heck up, and be counted:ugh: Do you realise what damage you are letting this bunch of
shag awful 'itinerants' (to use the legal Irish term) are doing to the good name of Tony Ryan RIP. And to yourselves, and others, if you can work for a third world employer in a so called first world country, then you are a sad bunch:ugh:

I'll never get anywhere near one of yr acft, go to SNN allot, fly & hire or get the ferry. Even the folks in SNN hate MOL:ugh:

From DFC

No, but the company did, and that's why they sacked him on the spot.

This is what angers me so much. They are saying that talking to cabin crew during the flight amounts to a distraction that is a flight safety issue !!!

Quote: "Could someone explain why FR can get away with this?".

Because they know they can, because their workforce have no representation.





At the moment!

The bully-boy tactics step up a gear...
 

Aldente, think you may have hit the nail on the head on this one - this probably will not stand up in court but RYR were waiting to make 'a point'
and show their workforce whos 'boss' esp. during this time. Would make me laugh if it wasn't so pathetic, and someone has lost their job.
Personally I think MOL should :mad: off to North Korea, think his 'management' skills would be put to good use there.

Things have got to come to a head in favour of the people who fly and work on MOL's multi million £ machines.

Unbelievable.

What very sad news this is, and sadder still that the likes of DFC get to spout their totally corrupted version of Employment Law on PPRuNe like Islamists spout bits of their holy book to suit their rogue agendas.

This captain should now proceed to take Ryanair for a few hundred thousand (he won't need a union lawyer for something this blatant) and those of you that counted said captain as a colleague should get your sorry a$$es into gear right now and start bringing your rogue employer to heel in oh so many ways.

unionised work environments fail.

supply and demand rules.

you are kidding yourselves if you believe otherwise.
Strike all you like, you'll kill the company you work for.

was it micheal or peter bellew that fired him?

airwave45
 

Please substantiate this statement.

Depends on the specific country and the regulatory environment, however...just ask the folks at CX...the 49ers+ chose to try during hard times in the airline profits downturn...all were terminated without cause.

Similar at the original National Airlines, in Miami.
Bud Maytag (similar in the thought process with MOL), played the FD guys like a Stradivarius violin...and beat 'em every time.

Read up on history...good examples are available.

However, it can be said with a good deal of accuracy...pilots are many times their own worst enemy.
Silly fools.:rolleyes:

Exactly because of people like this :-

People who are so desperate to get a flying job that they will gladly shaft others and accept ever decreasing terms and conditions in order to achieve it without realising (or probably caring) about how it is making it worse for everyone in the long term.

Due to these sort of people we now have airlines like FR where YOU have to PAY to apply for the job, PAY for the interview, PAY for the t/r, PAY for the uniform etc etc....whilst NOT being paid to train and it is slowly spreading to other airlines too.

I have recently qualified and like most other low houred f/atpl's, I'm struggling to find a job, but I'll be voting with my feet as I DO have a choice - I will not apply for a job with that awful company.

Good luck with your vote to get union recognition.

:ok: