Have a read of the law before jumping to conclusions;

6.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, the dismissal of an employee shall be deemed, for the purposes of this Act, to be an unfair dismissal unless, having regard to all the circumstances, there were substantial grounds justifying the dismissal.
[GA](2) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1) of this section, the dismissal of an employee shall be deemed, for the purposes of this Act, to be an unfair dismissal if it results wholly or mainly from one or more of the following:
[GA]( a ) the employee's membership, or proposal that he or another person become a member, of, or his engaging in activities on behalf of, a trade union or excepted body under the Trade Union Acts, 1941 and 1971, where the times at which he engages in such activities are outside his hours of work or are times during his hours of work in which he is permitted pursuant to the contract of employment between him and his employer so to engage,


Read the law here;

Irish Statute Book, Acts of the Oireachtas, Unfair Dismissals Act, 1977, Section 6

So if this pilot was fired for promoting BALPA or handing out leaflets during normal working time it is not unfair.

Regards,

DFC

leezyjet - a voice of reason in the holding pool of pilots
 

as you know we have spent a lot of money and time in gaining our ratings only for this 'business model' called ryanair to shaft those who are employed by RYR...those who are employed by MOL mostly don't want to 'rock the boat' and i won't go into details about how RYR use newly qualified (at their expense) pilots to perpetuate this business model, but- and i would say this especially to newly employed/BRK RYR crew... look a litttle further into the future!

As i said previously, things WILL come to a head!

What an incredible state of affairs! My best wishes go out to the gentleman/professional caught out in this game of industrial ping pong. Prior to downloading our rostas (amongst other necessities) the continuous drip of political dross we must submit as read is becoming childish and irritating.
Whoever represents this former "Company Man" in any forthcoming court case will surely draw on specialist advisers, Material wittnesses as well as character referees. The judge or tribunal will then analyse and evaluate before using such words as unfair dismissal, psychological bullying, intimidation, loss of earnings, stress or deformation of character e.t.c. Doesn't matter if BALPA or anyone else for that matter represent this chap all recent events have done is stoke the fire! As with the hedging and the financial write down on the Lingus shares Ryanair seem hell bent on S&*%£@G the shareholders money up the wall again! Tribunal case should be interesting save me a place in the public gallery!!:ugh:

The pilot in question was bound to UK, English and Welsh Law. Not Irish as he was UK contracted. So the reference you have used DFC is wrong.

Dan Winterland has hit the nail on the head. So the question is how was this Gross Misconduct on safety? This will be up to the lawyers to argue out.

This act will only make pilots more resolute and clear that they have no other choice now than to continue and seek recognition. This type of management will act how it wants, when it wants and will suffer the pain later as the longer economic gain and the obvious attempt to attack hearts and minds against pilots will outweigh the financial loss in tribunal. As the many past industrial tribunal victories and court cases have proven in the past. Management are planning long term as should pilots. The problem for management is that the pilots aren't in the mood for flinching.

Disgusting type of behaviour in the 21st century but nothing the pilot community has not seen before from this company.

Well said, PBD - it's just a shame RYR are raising the stakes in this way to stave off the 'collective mood' with peoples careers'

I await Leo HC's post...

There seem to be a lot of unhappy pilots at RYR. Unhappy pilots can be dangerous pilots.

If you abuse machinery, it will let you down at some stage. If you treat your personal as machines and abuse them, they will let you down, sooner or later.

You will get more productivity from a person who is happy, than unhappy. Same in the simulator, as people perform better in a relaxed and happy environment than one of pressure and fear.

I don't know where all this will lead but it will only take one bad accident (God forbid) to wipe the profits (gained by screwing crew) right out and the smiles off one or two faces. It could ruin a company.

Accident investigators normally find out what went wrong and when. They do not however, have the expertise to know if the crew members involved had their "minds on the job". Pilot error? The question should also be asked is why, the error.

Companies go to great lengths in screening crews to avoid this very thing but once, or before, the crews make the cut, they are abused!

No matter it is an employer that you don't like or a woman that you don't like, it is almost always better policy and more fun to be fired rather than to resign.

Silly fool.:}
I know of several companies that will not hire a new employee that has been terminated (fired) for cause, previously.

IE: Burn bridges, expect problems.

Dear Darling 411A
You say you know of "several" companies who will not hire in this circumstance.
I don't think that "several " is representative of the industry in in general.
Also I do not think that calling a fellow poster a "silly fool" is allowed under forum rules and I will be referring your comment for moderation.
Are you still management of some airline company?

In an otherwise depressing discussion about a depressing employer it is at least good to see that nobody is engaging with 411A, he of the endless negative message and with little to occupy his time.

All but 2 of his 4,500 odd posts concern the uselessness of unions and pilots with the implicit message that everybody should buy their job, defer to any idiot who is "in charge" but who nonetheless uses their skills.

It is also tiresome to hear his examples taken mainly from U.S. airlines and endlessly repeated Monty Pythonesque whine "you are all doomed".

Arizona is just not far enough away for this guff. But you've got to give it to him, he just keeps on going, and going and going.

Guava Tree

I cannot speak for your industry, but I can confirm, generally speaking, HR will not look with much interest at CVs submitted by terminated employees, worse if the application is for management positions.

FSLF

Yes, SLF. Your post tends to confirm our belief that is “HR” is not an acronym for “Human Intelligence”.

(at least in Malaysia where is displayed your location)

Guava Tree Are you complaining about "silly" or "fool"?

You said: I guess there's lots of words for something as stupid as that. :rolleyes:

Guava Tree

Of course "HR" is not acronym for "Human Intelligence", which is supposed to be "HI"

I cannot understand why my location infers with my comment?

411A
 

He probably holds the PPRuNe record for "ignore list" entries. :)

You keep on commenting on a fictitious situation that didn't happen in the first place!

This captain was not fired for that reason; he was fired because he jeopardized safety in some twisted view of some twisted managers. Is that "not unfair" too in your opinion?

Until self interest is replaced by more altruistic concerns then things will never change, unfortunately don't think that any would be prepared for this sort of action?

Over 2,000 down tools for sacked Total strikers - Telegraph

Union membership
 

Don't mention GCHQ. I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it!
Rob

It is not unfair if safety was indeed jeopardised. The ops manual and SOPs would probably play a big part in deciding that.

However, what sticks in my mind is - If this pilot was doing something "unsafe" and/or handing out BALPA leaflets, unless it was seen by a manager then who reported the situation?

If it was seen by a manager then the Darwin employment award has been given.

If someone else reported the "activity" to management then is everyone questioning the right of a crewmember to report a safety issue and for action to be taken as a result?

Simply seems to me that if the "incident" happened during flight and the Captain did not report it himself and there was not a manager present to see it then another crew member must have reported the situation? :eek:

Regards,

DFC

It appears there is no end to the abuse we are willing to take to keep our jobs! We prefer to have our health families dignity crash but our flight safety levels are maintained....and the Airline takes the credit for this! Also the fact that if I understand correctly he was fired not for promoting Unions but for doing so in the flight deck is classic RyanAir , so it is a safety compromise not a union membership issue .

Why have we always been so reluctant to "use the safety card" ourselves as a body? This sort of continued intimidation by an obviously deranged man surely is having it own direct impact on an already exhausted and traumatized pilot body.

Advertise widely Unions and get yourselves the best team of layers available!

Can someone who knows the facts tell us what reason(s) the company actually gave for firing the captain.

What does the company actually claim he did wrong?

Was he given written reasons?
Has anyone seen them?

This thread would be more interesting if we had some facts to discuss instead of rumor.



B.

DFC, don't you think it somewhat unwise to be engaging in such speculation? Or even to be willing to do so?

You appear to me to be off on a long line of deductive reasoning in which all you show is (a) your ignorance of facts, (b) a willingness to speculate on very little, and (c) a willingness to betray your personal inclinations and biases.

What good does that do anybody, much less somebody who seems to value their own insights to a high degree? It is indeed true to say But what does stating this truism add? I can assert with 100% confidence that you Sir are subject to the law of the land and the laws of gravity wherever you are. So there, that's told you!

What does not appear in your speculations is the possibility that a management team with a well-deserved reputation for misbehaviour may have done something wrong, improper or possibly even illegal. Why so?

Attn: All UK Pilots
From:P***R B****w
Date:18 June 2009
Re: Captain Dismissal UK

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,
A UK based Ryanair Captain was dismissed earlier today for gross misconduct. The
Captain in question took it upon himself to routinely distribute union membership
forms and actively encourage Cabin Crew during duty time and on the flight deck to
join the T&G union. This is completely unacceptable behaviour for a Captain and in
my view a potentially serious safety issue.
What people do outside of the workplace is their own business - we are running an
airline here and we expect our crew to discharge their duties in full and not to be
involved in any union activity during working hours that could distract our people from their
normal duties and potentially impact on passenger safety.
P***r B****w
Deputy Director - Flight Operations

Dont feed the Troll
 

Boy, a very concise summation of this posters actions/opinions on this thread, and if you care to check back - most other threads that he/she gets involved with.
Specifically, IAA ATCOs had a similar experience last year during an ongoing dispute, trying to offer information to DFC in reply to their questions, but finding out that we were just feeding a troll.
We found that by ignoring or failing to engage, that DFC :mad: off to annoy someone else in the PPRUNE community.
Its just this threads turn!

I freely admit to being easily confused but why was he (or she) handing out T&G application forms to cabin staff on the flight deck?

I could just about understand handing out BALPA application forms to pilots on the flight deck but this seems bizarre and the big question surely is who shopped him to the management and why did they do that?

Happy Jellyfish!!
 

Ryanair pilots are not mugs. We are not spineless jellyfish and neither are we slaves. Just a few of the ignorant comments left by god knows who. I enjoy and take pride in my job. There are some great benifits to flying for Ryanair.I never fly through the night. I don't have to get fat on greasy, salty, cooked to within an inch of it's life crew food. I don't have to sit next to a captain who does nothing but moan about his pension. I work a fixed roster of 5 on 4 off, get 2 lots of 2 weeks holiday in the summer and a month off in the winter to fekk off somewhere warm and sunny. This ensures I don't get S.A.D. and end up forever posting sh&te on forums like this. O...and I get payed pretty well too.Balpa are intent on ruining things as far as I can see. Here is a fact rightly or wrongly, Ryanair hate Balpa. And, Balpa hate Ryanair and only want to protect the interests of B.A. And lets get one more thing straight, Ryanair play hardball when they want to,they take on the monopolising BAA, they pull out of bases when the (Spanish)authorities give unfair advantages and funding to their local airlines (Valencia)and that's why (whether you guys like it or not) they have a thriving business which offers the best and only real long term job security you can get. Nobody wants to see folk getting sacked but this is not a good time for unions.

Thanks for confirming the situation Grim Repa.

Seems like some member of the team he was Captain of informed "someone else" of the activities. Otherwise how did they find out?

As I said previously, if doing union work in contracted working time, UK or Ireland - not permitted unless already a union official (rep) or seeking election to such a position and the system has been agreed in advance.

Good luck to the pilot. I have no doubt that this was done to "make an example". However, it will be very interesting to see what direction this takes.

Would I be correct to say that at a tribunal, unfair dismissal compensation is capped in the UK?

Regards,

DFC

PS - Irish ATCO, I did say during the debate back then that 1 year later it would be a totally different picture. Seems I was correct!! Would you like to revisit your projections for traffic levels, pay or staff? :D :D :D

I got the following info from a poster on another site and I think he or she makes a very good point. They following account of what a barrister representing Ryanair had to say was published in yesterday's Irish Times.

Even Ryanair's barrister considers that their actions might be "distasteful or immoral". He is presumably concerned enough about Ryanair's actions that he is pointing out that such discrimination cannot be taken into account as the actions were "not unlawful". (This was at the end of a court/tribunal hearing, presumably constructive dismissal).

As the original poster put it: I think that all of this puts Ryanair's "safety action" - and all their other actions - in a correct context for our discussions and comments here. This has everything to do with what Ryanair want to do and nothing to do with morality, fairness nor anything else that looks like civilised or reasonable behaviour.

Not only do they not do shame, they are proud of their actions. And the likes of Mrs Ryan thinks it equally good to be a jelly fish who hears and sees no evil. Jelly fish is a well chosen name to describe such people.

welcome mrs Ryan - another MOL screen name no doubt.
Tell me - you in Ryanair management are very vocal about how unfair it is to compete against airlines that have unfair treatment or subsidies (like Alitalia, and indeed the Spanish example in your post). Well I think it is unfair on the other 99.9999% of airlines in europe to have to compete with your airline that doesn't obey contract or employment law. Its a pity the irish government is so spineless really - or is that why this sorry company is registered there?
But I have faith. What comes around, goes around. In 10 years MOL will be a distant memory, a footnote amongs the thousands of failed airline executives and Ryanair either wont exist, or will have morphed into an entirely different, entity.

I've read several Ryanair threads and there's a few things that puzzle me.

Do the anti Ryanair posters really believe every Ryanair pilot agrees with their views about the company?
And anyone who doesn't is either MOL or someone else from Ryanair management?
Why are the anti Ryanair posters so abusive to posters that don;t agree with their opinions?


the grim repa
Thanks for posting the letter.

IF IT'S TRUE the Captain was encouraging Cabin Crew to join the T&G union and distributing membership forms in the company's time and on the flight deck then IMHOthe company is entitled to view it as unacceptable behavior.

Firing him sounds harsh but he must have known the risk he was taking.
The letter says "routinely". Was this the first time he did it?
As JW411 says I could just about understand handing out BALPA forms to pilots, but what was he doing handing out T&G application forms to cabin attendants? :confused:
Did he think it was acceptable behavior? Or that the company would regard it as acceptable to be doing that in the company's time?

MrsRyan - first post so I console myself it can only get better. So true that Ryanair's pilots are not all jellyfish - alas enough of them are to guarantee you will be the pariah of the industry. I imagine you are in your first job and know no different. Ignorance is bliss, and as you appear so blissful, I can only marvel at the level of ignorance you have achieved in such a short time. Enjoy the moment and turn a deaf ear to all around you, lest it disturb the slumber of your conscience. It is a well-trodden path, that led to the rise of too many dictators worth boring you with the details of. There again, if the trains ran on time, it seemed so churlish to ask deeper questions that could be construed as disloyalty. Wouldn't it be strange if you got to the end of your life and found out it wasn't all about you after all?

Bronx,

So do you too think it was a "serious safety issue" and an "impact on passenger safety" by distracting the cabin crew from their normal duties ?

Had he been talking about other matters such as the previous night's TV etc, would this also be a flight safety issue ? ....

You just don't get it do you ?

Sigh .........


:ugh:

Aldente

No, I don't think was a serious safety issue. If I thought that I would have said it.

Depends what you mean by "get it".
I guess "get it" means agreeing with your opinions.
:ugh:

Hi Bronx. You ask Nope, not necessarily. However neither is it entirely a matter of conspiracy theories and the like. Ryanair takes pilot opinion a lot more seriously than do their pilots (more's the shame on the pilots). For this reason they, and their fellow travellers frequent various places to preach the doctrine to "un-believers". (Among other things they make a lot of money from training cadets and want to keep the gullible lined up to part with money).

Such posters often suffer from the same disease as any true believer in anything, which is a certain tendancy to blindness, ideological purity, an unwillingness to admit to ANY deficiencies, consistently being on message, etc. There are indeed exceptions, most often young "cadets" who think that they owe the Ryanair model of exploitation some form of loyalty once they have spent a lot of money getting into Ryanair and signing onto a lot of debt. Buy the job and buy the model of continual pay decreases (sorry, I meant "responses to the competitive environment").

As the coincidence would have it, our brand new poster(first post!) - Mrs Ryan who posts with clear knowledge and confidence - has produced a classic pro-Ryanair post. It would be tedious to do an analysis of all the key "talking points" and positives about Ryanair (a token couple of which are correct), but if you pay close attention to each phrase, there is a lot to learn. Then watch out for the same routine elsewhere. The question is whether or not Mrs Ryan is a real Ryanair pilot. I, for one, doubt it very much.

More difficult to catch are those who do the "I'm completely with you, but I would like to point out why you're going to fail/are all doomed" type of post. But in the end they too give themselves away.

By the way, the opposite is just as true. It is easy to spot the opposition. But, in general, the opposition don't need to hide anything as they just want people to open their eyes to a rather blinding reality (something I tried to encourage in my post above as a parting shot before heading off on holiday tomorrow). Sit back and enjoy it all ... and await the arrival of the "heavy gunnery" Leo H-C who most assuredly is a commited believer in the Church of Ryanair Pilots, and a real Ryanair pilot.

firstly, i'd like to say that i am on the fence about the vote. most of the guys i fly with aren't voting, the most common reason seems to be bad experiences with balpa at previous airlines. the second officers seem to be believing the tripe that eddy/mol/pb are producing and are scared - especially since the uk base freeze and threat of uk base closures. when i first heard about the vote i was determined to vote for it. i'm not in balpa but i understand (from link on repaweb) that i can have my say regardless.
the reason i am now undecided isn't because of threats from management - i think we all know the talk of closing uk bases etc if balpa are introduced is empty bull, it's actually from colleagues comments.

this comment wont go down well, but i fall in the same category as mrsryan, i too am a happy jellyfish - and have also been accused of being management before. that pisses me off. you guys with such strong anti-ryanair management feelings don't seem to understand that there are plenty who are happy with life at ryanair. are there 50% like us? from those i fly with; i think there are.

anyway, i've been told that a couple of bases are well above their target of getting voters - those are both southern bases, but others are falling short. in my opinion i don't think it will go through.

can anyone tell me when exactly the ballot closes?

cheers,

b bear

p.s. i know this is the thread about the skipper who got fired, apologies about my part in steering it the wrong way. he didn't deserve it, nice guy. i'm sure when the dust settles, whichever way the vote goes, he'll have his day in court and collect a nice settlement. i know he's reading this, so good luck.

It's all becoming a bit of a mess I think. I don't know who the guy that got fired is so I dont know if I know him or not. I, like most others am deeply sorry to hear that it has hapened, yet not surprised.
There are many camps within the workforce at Ryanair so I wouldn't like to put money on the outcome of the vote. I am told that the vote will be done base by base. This in its is self is not good. In my opinion this will only put those in small bases in a very dangerous position. For this reason alone, I will be surprised if any of the small bases vote for BALPA. Maybe things at STN will be different.
With regards to MrsRyan's post. Regardles of the validity of his/her claims. There are many at Ryanair that feel this way. I know a few, myself included that have worked in BALPA recognised companies before, and were happy to join Ryanair to get away from them. Having been round the block a few times I am aware of the downside of flying for Ryanair, there are however many good sides that people seem to ignore, or shout down when mentioned.
Many of the people who claim to be unhappy with working at Ryanair have not even worked anyware else, yet are happy to shout about how hard they are being done by. I personaly think the only winner from a BALPA win will be BALPA, the staff will pay heavily in the fallout. If BALPA loose the vote now, the staff will pay heavily in the fallout.
I have no great feeling either way about BALPA as I have always been happy with Ryanair since I joined. Yes, in the long term maybe BALPA recognition may be a good thing, but I wonder how many people will be happy to pay the price in the mean time.
Before you start shouting, yes I am a BAPLA member, and no, I don't know how I will vote!

One cannot help but wonder if...many of the FR detractors here were not actually turned down for FR employment recently, or in the past.
If so, it would certainly explain their negative attitudes.
IE: sour grapes, personified....:bored::rolleyes:

I'm surprised being Ryanair he wasn't charging for the forms -must be a first !

Have a look at what the grim repa posted. Note that the memo is to "ALL UK PIlots".

Why would such a notice not be sent to all pilots? Why not the many Irish pilots, German pilots, Italian pilots etc etc etc?

Is it the case that the majority of pilots doing things like this pilot are UK pilots and if that is the case then why?

Regards,

DFC

Deary, deary me .... DFC you betray a curious lack of grasp about what is going on. I'm beginning to look upon you in a new, more (frighteningly) innocent light.

U.K. pilots are preparing for a recognition vote.

It is not necessary to frighten the other pilots (yet).

It is necessary to frighten the U.K. pilots.

You fire a U.K pilot who has been giving material to cabin crew to concentrate the minds of U.K. pilots.

It matters little if this has nothing to do with BALPA.

Just as was the case with Captain Goss in Dublin, when they tried to fire him - unfairly and improperly, as a court subsequently found. Funnily enough it was at a time when the pilots there wanted to stand up for themselves.

Just a coincidence?

To fire = to demonstrate power = to frighten = to divide and conquer = to keep people in their place.