And he could have fooled me too!!

For a completely different contrast, see a pilot who is willing to protect his rights and entitlements and who has again taken Ryanair to court (video link): http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0622/6ne...67028,null,230

Boy, that link doesn't work for me ...

Which is more than that nasty little airline for which you fly exhibits towards its passengers.

People who travel with Ryanair are, to my mind, rather like those who buy counterfeit goods - they encourage sweat shop labour.

There is a great deal of rhetoric being bandied around, and a not insignificant amount of hubris. The sanctification of unnamed pilots who are " willing to protect his rights and entitlements" by ventilating their sacking / dismissal in front of a Judge doesn't reflect the reality of their situations:no job, probably no income, no reference and redundancies tumbling form even the legacy carriers. Isolated from their former colleagues and probably left to fund the fight through Courts themselves.

Solicitors and barristers taking £175 + VAT for an hour's work soon sees the legal bills build up: costs at Tribunal, in England and Wales, are not normally awarded hence the award will be reduced by the cost of bringing the action which could take 2 years+ to see out.

In the meantime, a small group of very enthusiastic individuals are clamouring for union recognition with little regard for the current economic climate. They singularly fail to recognise that a commercial decision taken by Ryanair management ( however distasteful they may find it) to close a base in the UK is not illegal in any way nor could any union prevent it.

Ryanair can simply reorganise their route structure using aircraft based in Europe to fly W patterns in and out of the former UK bases, maintaining the routes but without the perceived problem of union oversight.

As to voting for something without knowing the manifesto, that surely is nothing more than downright folly: the management at FR have made it clear what their response to recognition will be. It is not, in my opinion, unreasonable to ask what lines the manifesto the protagonists propose.

If I, and many others, are to lose our 5/4 roster, a substantial amount of money, live in the shadow of having our jobs shipped across the Channel and to pay BALPA 1% of our now reduced salaries for the privilege, is it not absolutely appropriate to ask how they propose to restore the status quo, or improve it and to ask how long this will take?

Ryanair pilots represent something of a cash cow for BALPA: 2200 wallets and growing by 400+ per year, that's a substantial income stream for New Road.

So, on the one hand the pilots are all subjected to a loss of income and loss of lifestyle, yet on the other BALPA sees it's income rise.

Finally, the legal protection offered by BALPA membership at 1% per annum can be acquired commercially for around £15 per month with, unlike BALPA, a guarantee that it will be there when you need it.

And BEagle, do calm down, flying a shiny new 737NG for a shedload of money on a 5/4 roster with wrap round leave days ( take 5 days leave, get 13 days off - oh and we get paid for being on leave) is hardly sweat shop labour.

Rather too simplistic Beagle, ... methinks you know very little of what you speak ... did you ever actually fly Ryanair?

The passengers are not mollycoddled, 'tis true; but buyers of counterfeit services? I think not. The A to B part works tremendously well. It's just the barsteward managers who need their wings clipped.

BEagle

Hmmm...next time you buy the cheapest stuff in a shop you will be encouraging sweat shop labor...make sure that you but that most expensive one with a certificate of being original!

On the other hand, AZ was not lacking Unions, at the last count there was 3 Pilots Unions...which could not even agree of what was best for their members. Here is the one million dollar question...does the Union know what is best for the members during a recession? Historically Unions have been lagging behind...this without taking anything from the great job that Union did in the past.

Well put Slim.
The choice as I see it is, Keep a 5 on 4 off roster, almost two months a year leave, and over £90,000 a year.
Or
Dignity and Respect ? Maybe no job and no money, or if we are lucky 5 on 2 off, crap leave and probably a big pay cut.
Let me think for a minute!

Yes I did. Once in 2002 and NEVER again. EVER!!

And that was before it was dumbed down to its present dismal standard.

Anyway, I don't wish to divert this thread. If employees wish to stand up for their rights under the bullying management style of their employer, then collective bargaining through union membership may be the only way. Whether that employer is an airline manager, a biscuit manufacturer or whatever.

Precisely my point. Which is why I NEVER stoop to such depths.

I don't think unions are themselves a good or bad idea, its the interface with the company that can bring about a better working relationship and maybe offer other options.

Unions don't run airlines, and never will because most pilots are far too selfish - pilots almost always vote for what will benefit them rather than voting for the moral right.

Unions in airlines can work and can help relations. I worked for a major UK airline where the relationship between company and pilots had got so bad we were literally on the verge of a strike. We came back from that and these days the company and union try and work together. We recently needed to make 150 or so pilots redundant. Well, in the end all of those pilots kept their jobs. I am not saying these problems were averted only because of union recognition, but it certainly helped.

Union recognition and a successful airline are not mutually exclusive and usually it is the opposite.

My word. We collectively have fallen very, very far.

It's very disappointed at the lack of self respect on show by some posters.

BEagle Lobbing a grenade into discussions tends, not surprisingly, to have that effect. ;)
However, merely to redress the balance .....
Perhaps you demand higher standards than me, my old friend. I've flown Ryanair and been entirely content.
The flights arrived on time or early, with one exception beyond Ryanair's control. (The airport had been closed for an hour at my request - for good unavoidable professional reasons - so I was in no position to feel aggrieved about the delayed departure!)
Inflight service was very basic 'no frills' but, considering what the tickets cost, I didn't expect, nor feel entitled to, any frills. The cabin attendants tend to be less 'polished' than (for example) BA but, given BA cabin attendants' famously high earnings, I expect more from them.Perhaps judging any airline by just one flight is rather unfair?
I've had occasional flights with (for example) both BA and Virgin when, given how little we saw of the cabin attendants after meal service and inflight sales, we might have toasted 'absent friends' - had our glasses not been empty for a couple of hours with little prospect of having them filled.

____________

From a neutral observer's perspective -

I realise it's not possible, but it would be interesting to know which contributors to this discussion actually work for Ryanair.
And whether the vitriolic and abusive comments by some here towards those who dare to disagree accurately reflects the atmosphere in discussions of the topic at work. Personal abuse is no substitute for reasoned argument.
Some contributors seem to think that anyone who disagrees with them doesn't understand the issues - on the curious, and rather arrogant, basis that if they did understand they'd agree.

.

DESPEGUE...you are right...Strike NOW!!!...Ask any rEAL pilot what "one day longer than Frank" means...they will tell you it means their job, their income, their lives as they once knew it, and BTW their family, their sanity and all of their "toys" (boat, fancy cars, summer house, etc)

So long to the pension, retirement, and the long awaited "last flight" with the fire trucks spraying the water over them as they taxi in for the last time...

Yes, young boy...go on strike...have a ball, but please don't try to bring everyone else down with you...not everyone likes to drink "Cool-Aid" as much as you seem to do...

As an aside...where the heck is Charlie Bryan these days???

Oh Yeah, I remember, he lasted "One day longer than "Frank""

Slim,
nearly 2 weeks leave for 5 days annual leave plus wraparound days can now only be acheived twice per year now , thanks to our weak and spineless ERC's, who supposedly "negotiate" on our behalf. After that it's the rest of your leave in a one month block as you know.

As for those of you worrying about the threat of 5/2, don't !!! Roughly 4 years ago during the period Feb to end of March , I can clearly recall at least 3 other airlines flying for Ryanair at Stansted (Air Exel being just one) on a wet lease basis due to crews running out of hours , and this on a 5/3 roster !

The company wanted and needed 5/4 remember ?

I believe that quite a number of professionals around the world including developed countries will be happy with such leave scheme.

When I joined the profession, pilots were not considered to be "workers" or for that matter "peasants", at least not in civilised countries.

FrequentSLF what is your role here?

Is it just to to justify anything that supports Ryanair? Your comment above about the manipulation of the leave system is typical. What do you know of the changes to the leave system, including the arbitrary introduction of unpaid leave? (You know what unpaid means, I trust).

I am not interested in hearing from you that you know of seasonal workers, even in developed countries, who go unpaid for more months than pilots. That is just knee-jerk justification, which can extend to justifying anything from intimidation to murder.

Indeed, why are you, a non-pilot, such a regular participant in somebody else's discussion, not as an observer but as a strong partisan of a very obvious position? Occasional comments are one thing. Being a partisian is another.

Beautifully put, Flying Lawyer. The credo of BLAPA henchmen down the ages.
I do. Have done for years. Love it. Am not in fear of my job, have plenty of dignity and respect, and don't spend my command time distributing leaflets encouraging Timid Gnomes Without Underpants.

I always knew BLAPA were capable of evil acts of self interest, but encouraging JA to walk the high-wire and then yanking away the net is just cruel. FOR SHAME, BLAPA, for shame.

Leo can you explain this statement in simple language? It is my understanding (and I may be wrong) that BALPA had nothing whatsoever to do with this event. My information comes from two colleagues who personally know the pilot.

In that case your post would be intentionally misleading, in which case would it be appropriate to say FOR SHAME, LEO, for shame?

Of course, if denigrating BALPA was your real purpose (perish the thought) then you would say something like that, even if it was untrue... or would you?

I look forward to your non-reply.

The caring camel?
 

Hello Didimus,

And thank you for your warm and charming message.

It's a shame that you feel compelled to be so unpleasant toward me because, in the final analysis, I think you and I want the same thing for the airline, just by different means. As you and I both know, anyone who can achieve and maintain the requisite standard to keep a place among the Ryanair cockpit corps is a well above average operator, and that of course includes you, but your lack of experience may lend itself to a similar absence of perspective. Something I suggest you consider in the months ahead.

Whatever the reason behind your viciousness, I wish you and our airline well. Were we to know each other in person, I think we'd get on rather better than you might think.

Take care, Didimus, and all the very best to you.

Leo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the grim repa
Tic-Toc,Tic-Toc,Ha Ha Ha!!!!



A PM recently recieved from the camel.What sanctimonious horse****!Not on your nelly buddy!!!!

What is this talk of "protecting your rights".

Worker's rights are covered by both the law and in Ireland a constitution that can be picked up and read by anyone.

Everything else is simply down to negotiation and agreement.


I love the comment;

What is wrong with that? Who are you to say that you deserve more than another human being?

If the case is that being a garbage collector is more profitable then flying a B737 then become a garbage collector.

Now that is perhaps the crux of the problem.

Some people think that just because they are a pilot that they are somehow superior to the garbage collector - regardless of age, experience and qualifications.

Besides being a very arogant attitude, people have lost sight of reality.

Perhaps the garbage collector has the brains to do a job that provides the better income than flying a jet. There is no impediment to you applying for the better paid job also.

Get a reality check - Ask yourself, does the airline exist to provide you with a well paid job? or are you simply someone that the airline employs to do a job so that it can make a profit?

People reading the "vote now, ask what we will do later" should take some time to read the rules. While it is hard to get a union recognised, having that recognition taken away is a much harder thing to acheive.

-----------

Hey Boy,

You are easily fooled. I was a union rep for a number of years. I know exactly what happens when you come along with a complaint and how or if that complaint is pushed and how the outcome is always a compromise between collective objectives ( the greather good) and your personal situation.

Even you as an individual are not going to bang the table very hard with MOL about say water being avaiable in-flight if it will have an adverse effect of your pay negotiations.

The only thing that the Union will 100% back you up on is the basic rights that are laid down in law but you don't need a union to tell you those are your entitlements - you can read it for yourself.

So as I said - Not anti-union. Simply a realist who would never vote for a political party who had no idea of what they were going to do if elected.

Regards,

DFC

Hmmmm. Collect garbage or be responsible for a few hundred lives every day?

I'd go with the garbage one if I were you. Imagine all those leaflets you could have collected when that evil, dangerous, nasty man left them in pigeon holes the other day. Heaven.....

Aldente, I am sure most of us appreciate no matter what roster pattern we are on, be it 5/4 or 5/2 we can only fly the same hours. The problem for a lot of us is getting home to see the family. If you are on 5/2 with lots of sby's, this may be OK if you live near by, but if you are a commuter, it means you would have to chose "the job or the family"
I am not prepared to give up 5/4, 2 months leave, £90,000 a year, and my family, just so you can have dignity and respect.

Now listen you lot...
 

Rubbishing a company is OK, but rubbishing fellow professionals is rather bad form := As to the status of pilots, and their importance in the pecking order, well someone quoted YYZ garbage workers:rolleyes:

Well folks I wonder where y'all would be without the HONEY CART MAN:confused:


Answers on a single sheet of Izal please......O shinny side down;)

DFC says in post #144
“Besides being a very arogant attitude, people have lost sight of reality.”

I wonder if our so called “DFC” is deliberately misspelling “arrogant” as “arogant” just to provoke us.

No, maybe not ..........

I can't understand you
 

I am posting from the sidelines, not being based in the UK. nevertheless, my view is this:

All you people against any form of union, saying things like: "it could'nt have come at a worst time", or "They could close UK bases, if pilots join a union", do you ever look outside your cockpit windows?

Acoording to management, times are ALWAYS at their worst, and "we" all have to "wind back a little, forego a pay rise etc...", so as the company can still make an "honest buck".

And, do any of you really believe that if you don't join a union, bases won't be closed? If it can be done cheaper elsewhere, it will be, union or no.

There is almost no detriment to being in a union, even if you only use it as place where you can get some pointers as to how you can deal with certain problems visited upon you.

Where I am, there is a pilots association. It is not really strong, but it does come in handy sometimes.

regards

Edit: lousy spelling

Oh yes, dear Mr.Tristar, you are sooooo right. And when a company fails, its the fault of the workforce. Never ever management or other things.

All the goodies we enjoy today have been given to us by the companies, because they are good and we are not. They are generous and forgiving, socially thinking and are always and generally speaking the basis for the good life we live nowadays.

Michael O`Leary is the culprit of 'goodmanship'. Do as he wants and EVERYBODY will have heaven on earth.

The current crisis has been brought upon us by the evil unions and their members, that are now gracefully allowed to pay for their evil sins (bailouts) via income tax. Or unemployment.




Our ancestors must feel sick about so many brown nosers. If you want work conditions like a hundred years ago, go buy a time machine but leave me alone. If not, unions are the way to go. United we make an impact, diveded they laugh at us.

Ballsout....Remember not just 4 months ago some of us had the CHOICE between a substantial pay cut or a pay freeze and a fiddle around with the annual leave! Don't forget the freezing of UK base transfers, the Pulling of people from command upgrade courses and our hardworking SFIs being told no with their prerequisite 3000 hrs. Don't forget the proposed £4000 upgrade fee or £500 knocked off your salary to keep your UK license. Dont get me wrong my current rosta at Ryanair is the best Ive EVER had in the industry and I generally enjoy working here HOWEVER to quote one of my colleagues recently "whats the point of being continuously threatened with a big stick if youre going to be beaten with it anyway?" Dont forget the list of proposed changes to our T&Cs still in the pipeline!! Dont forget the sector pay review by HMRC!! I hope that eating our food during the cruise as per part `A` isn't going to found to be found contravening flight safety soon or were all going to go a little hungry on our 12hr days aren't we? Dont mind doing my bit for the company but I'm sure without doubt if other crew outside RYR were to witness our crewdock or the contents of my pigeon hole it would take them two weeks to stop laughing! Anyway future is promising cant wait to witness the wide array of teddies and dummies on the bedroom floor!!

"Employee Relations"
 

I've read this thread carefully as I know a little about "Employee Relations".

I have to say that no-one who works outside MOL's version of Disneyworld can comment on what is going on. Nothing that MOL's managers do compares with how the rest of us conduct and regulate our relationships.

It would appear to me that you either like working in their world or you don't. If you do, fine, if you don't, get the hours in and keep your cv up to date.
Aviation will pick up, and job opportunities in Aviation will come back. It'll take a year or so.

If I were a hospital director and wanted to confront my top surgeons over pay, conditions or unionisation, I'd think at least twice.

MOL only needs to read pilots' postings on PPrune to know that a more divided bunch of professionals would be hard to find. He has nothing to fear.

PBD1, I don't dissagree with what you say, I just dissagree that in todays economic climate it's worth risking my livelyhood over.

I can look after my own long term livelyhood, it's the short term that's concerning me.

Ballsout, this is the eternal question - when is a good time to stand up or to gain respect? The answer is: this has nothing to do with "when is a good time?". Sick fed up of hearing this excuse. There will never be a good time if you listen to management ! That is the only truth. And don't worry for finding an excuse for the next time around, the company will provide that for you, free of charge.

The terms and condition, if left to management, are only going to go down (look at the sector pay, the ever reducing basic pay new captains start on, total disrespect towards our leave system changing every year). This is where we need to get organised, helped by BALPA. Is it going to be simple? No. Is it going to be painless? No. But: Will it put us back on track to be respected and paid like the rest of the industry? OH YES!! If you're looking for an easy fix, that magic bullet, there ain't any. Simple. Do I wish it was easier? Yes. Tough. Management has created this situation, nobody else. Time to find our courage (BALLS) and sign the union in.

And BTW, Respect will make you feel seriously better towards your work, and that is priceless. Forgetting the way we are treated, putting that on the side, that will one day hit you back like a ton of bricks... and it will be too late. And let us not forget that our pilot stood up for what he thought was right, I pay full respect to him! What is democracy worth? No need to answer, just try dictatorship..

Again, it won't be easy but all we need to do is to confidentially tell a Committee we want to be represented, there is no need to even tell any manager your opinion or publicly defend the cause if you do not wish to do so. Just one little vote! No need to be BALPA member (although admittely it would help the cause).

This is indeed a very serious matter.

RYR staff, and that is ALL staff, not just pilots, are constantly under supervision.

If any member of this company dares to talk about union, and these discussions end up in the wrong ears, we all know how it all ends up....., forget the work shifts, forget the pay etc, this reason alone is more than enough for the whole staff of this company to make a stand, and i meen 100% of the staff.

Apparantly RYR workers are to certain person like oranges, oranges that will be squeezed until no juice is left in them. Kind of reminds me of the black people collecting cotton in the USA (no offence please, it is a constructive comparison).

Why are some people so concerned about uniting? It is neccessary to unite, manageres need to be "educated", they need to be taught that we are human beings and that if we disagree with them, they have to listen to our thoughts, this enhances safety because it makes our workplace a happier one, it makes us want to have our company rocketing ski high...

Essentialy, what im trying to express is that im very concerned when i read peoples excuses about why uiniting is not "wsie".

Lets be realistic, is every body happy at RYR? Would someone change certain "things" ata RYR?

Getting together an showing the company that the workers are united benefits both, because form then on, company and workers can sit at the same table and NEGOTIATE. Here nothing is negotiated, what i say is law, if you dont like it the FU, theres the door.

So for those that defend that a union is not needed, please, think it over, you are not being truthful with yourself, and let me add something, the more powerful this company becomes, the less powerful the workers, until eventually we will feel our head between the tarmac and somebodies opresing boot. This may sound like some crazy propaganda, but, think it over, maybe its not such a foolish thought.

For those who think unions are only designed to milk the company and benefit the workers, let me tell you, i used to think the same, but now i know for sure that i was completely mistaken. We are vulnerable and fragile against RYR managing staff.

I dont want anything in particular, just to have a proper defense against abuse.

I think we all do, but some of us are affraid, and disguise this with excuses as to why uniting is not a good idea. In order to be free, we MUST all be together, ALL on the same boat.

Last of all, just incase anybody feels like calling me a terrorist, maybe you are on the wrong forum, this is a pilots forum were we try to make each one and others life better.

Remember, this is not about milking the company, because it feeds many of us, its about having the chance to be heard and respected and treated as deserved not as desired.

Sorry for writting such a long thread, and about any possible spelling/gramatical mistakes. This is not my mother language.

It was not about the value but rather about pay. The theory has it that people are not paid according to their intrinsic value but accordingly to the value of their work. This has some interesting implications to comparison between Toronto garbage disposal tehnicians / airline pilots. Not to mention the income of certain Richard S. Fuld.

Now back to the thread: if we have some insiders here, I'd like to know a) how did the RYR MGT find out about "subversive" activity during the flight b) in what airspace did the "un-company" behaviour occur?

United! How many united pilots are out of work just now? How many united pilots are facing redundancy just now? How many united pilots are being asked to work a month for nothing just now? This is not the time for staff to take management on, especialy not Ryanair management. If anyone with an ounce of sence wants to have this fight, they will chose to do it when other companies are on the up.
For those that loose their jobs through this, what companies are recruiting just now? What companies are recruiting direct entry Captains just now? Where do they expect to get the money to pay the bills?
United, Dignity and Respect don't pay the bills. Get real, if you must pick a fight, pick it where and when you have a chance of winning!

MoL is a gob****e, I agree with you folks, but can you not get bloody organised ? This has been going on for sooo long, I doubt it will ever be resolved, you lot just cannot get unified/agree on a method of progres.

No I'm not with the company, just happen to know it from TR's start.

I'll say no more I now I feel like saying stuff I shouldn't:mad::=

BALLSOUT, I understand your concern and it is clear that talking about unity makes you feel frightend, mainly due to the fact that you believe this may cause you to loose your job. However, if everybody was together in this fight (as you stated) then there would be no space for abusive managers.

Another uncomfortable truth is that, if a serious union was to be created within RYR, people like yourself would benefit from a battle that you chose to escape from, mainly due to unrealistic worries, and this is not fare. By unrealistic worries i mean that you would not be sacked if everybody was together in this.

Would you resign to a better situation in your company if these benefits were now yours thanks to all those who made a stand against the companies abusive ways? The answer is no, no you woud'nt. Therefore, insted of being so negative and talking about: United, Dignity and Respect dont pay the bills. get real etc etc. Its time for everybody to face the facts and make a decision, do we surender or do we simply demand our rights via a negotiating team, ie, Union...?

I agree with you in that many united pilots are asked to fly free, buts thats not our case is it? This company continues to grow and is very strong. So that excuse, im affraid, is just that, an excuse.

You wrote "If anyone with an ounce of sence wants to have this fight, they will chose to do it when other companies are on the up." To this i answer, if anyone has an ounce of sence, this fight will be taken on roight know, before this massive company turns into an empire, then it will be too late, and clever sentences like that will make us all very happy...... or miserable.

Stop looking for excuses, this is not about outwitting others in this forum, its about making a move before its too late.

Clandestino,

Good point.

Perhaps the whole world should "unite" and then everyone can be paid the same as a Toronto garbage collector.

However, the point I made earlier was simply if you are in it for the money then it makes sense to do the job that pays most.

If you are in it for the "status" then you were born 50 years late.

If you are in it for the flying - hey you are flying and (for the most part) you don't have to pay for it.
---------

Ballsout,

Very good point also. If you are facing having nothing more than Dignity and Respect to pay the bills, any Union representing you will not pick a fight that it does not think it can win or that will cause greather losses elsewhere.

---------

PBD 1,

You say that you loose 500 because you insist on keeping your UK licence. Since country of licence issue makes no difference under JAR-FCL, why do you insist on having "UK CAA" on your licence and not "IAA". I can't see any reason.

Regards,

DFC

Vexed says Ain't that the truth. :ok:I've been waiting to see if any poster says the captain was FALSELY accused of encouraging Cabin Crew to join the T&G union and distributing membership forms in the company's time and on the flight deck and nobody has so far.
If it's true, surely he must have realized he was taking a big risk doing that on the flight deck and in the company's time?

If anyone's likely to know, it's The Grim Repa whose made 500 posts every one attacking Ryanair management. The Grim Repa posted the company's letter and added "any letter from ryanair management can contain elements of complete untruth" but he doesn't claim the captain was not doing the above.
I could understand handing out BALPA forms to pilots, but what was he doing handing out union forms to Cabin Crew? :confused:

Some here say the F/A who reported him was a Judas and a rat. Nobody likes folk who run off getting other people into trouble with management but to be fair we don't know what form the captain's "encouraging" took. Maybe the captain was abusing his position by putting pressure on staff lower down the food chain?
Maybe he wasn;t but I'm wondering because some of the pro union posters on this thread who spout off about freedom dignity respect etc dont show any respect to colleagues who don't agree with them and are very offensive about them. Claiming to believe in dignity and respect and freedom of thought is hypocritical if it only applies to people who think the same way as you. :rolleyes:

Maybe, like me, he has a UK CAA ATPL with 4 years left to run before it expires and yet I am told by Ryanair that I must have an Irish licence by the end of October 2009 or pay 500 euros.

It's not a TV licence and there's no refund for any unused portions I'm afraid !

Maybe now you can see a "reason" ......


:ugh: