BALPA and BA talks breakdown
 

According to BALPA web site the talks between the two sides have broken down.......BA have threatened to get a high court injunction to prevent BA pilots from striking. Not sure thats gonna work. Well done WW.......not !:ugh:

BA pilots right and truly believe that BA management is going to roll over....ain't gonna happen, you can be sure.

BA management right and truly believes that BA pilots are going to roll over....ain't gonna happen, you can be sure.

BA press release
 

BALPA talks update

We are disappointed that BALPA has chosen to walk away from the talks led by the conciliation service, ACAS. We believe the opportunity remains to reach a peaceful resolution and lift the threat of strikes from our customers.
During the talks we made a number of offers to BALPA that we still believe could resolve the differences between us. We are proud of the professionalism and high reputation of our pilots. We do not want a conflict with them and have not sought one.
We have offered binding assurances that OpenSkies will pose no threat to the terms, conditions and job security of British Airways pilots. Prospects for BA flight crew have never been better. Our plans for expansion at Heathrow and Gatwick mean we will be recruiting more than 300 new BA pilots in the next two years, as the London-based fleet grows to more than 240 aircraft.
Our offer also included making available to BA pilots 50 per cent of flight crew vacancies for the six aircraft currently planned to go into the new airline, while protecting job security and career progression in BA.
OpenSkies is a new airline in a highly competitive market from Continental Europe to the US, and the terms and conditions for its staff must reflect that. BALPA says that terms and conditions for OpenSkies pilots must match those at BA as soon as the airline becomes profitable. This would generate cost and complexity that the new carrier could not sustain. OpenSkies would not be viable - restricting our ability as a company to compete by setting up a European business and putting at risk the creation of 350 new jobs.
We felt it right and fair to give BALPA private notice that we have a valid legal claim against them before they took the disproportionate step of calling a strike. If strike dates are issued, we will act to protect our customers by applying for an injunction.
We must act to protect our customers and explore every option to prevent the massive disruption a strike would cause.
We have made ourselves available to talk with BALPA at any time in order to find a peaceful solution.

Rip Ba
 

Whatever the rights or wrongs of any strike, any action will lead to the demise of BA.

Even now, passengers must be booking elsewhere. One only has to read a travel insurance policy to see that, if there is the likelihood of strike action at the time of booking, the insurance is void (I have just checked mine before anyone comments).

Why would anyone want to fork out money on BA flights, only to discover that any strike action now would nulify their policy.

Try Googling "BA strike" to see how many instances of the various stikes over the years there are. Is Arthur Scargill a member of BA staff?

It seems that BA reckon BALPA is denying them the freedom to set up a subsidiary company within Europe. It's a bit of a long stretch if you ask me!

I suspect we are looking at BA eventually scrapping the setting up of Openskies and blaming the pilots for making it too expensive an idea. However, we have actually agreed to accept what ever pay and terms and conditions they want, as long as OS pilots are on our master seniority list (as the intent of our scope agreement dictates).

BBB,

Are you management? You've made ONE POST and it's a straight copy of a management post on the Flight Ops Forum.

Must be serious for someone to work late on a Friday night.:E

methinks the BA press release is willie speak for "cop on people,this is real"
cop on may be required!:eek:

Some of the them have had the cops on them for a while now..... :E

Please explain this line from BBB's post.

a) I cannot believe BALPA would demand that - the issue was framed as master seniority
b) It is clearly unviable, and at odds with the former mainline regional operations that operated at a lower cost base
c) The airline as a whole is profitable, therefore this comment makes no sense

a) They didn't. More detail on the BALPA Forum.
b) See a
c) See b

To anyone reading BigBobsBloggs post.

This is a BA manager who will lose a large sum of £££ in the form of a bonus in the event of a strike. This is all they care about. It is this person’s first post and is directly copied from BA internal servers.

BA will make £1,000,000,000 in profit this year. A record profit in a year when they lost a record number of bags, upset a record number of passengers and a year when its staff (including its pilots) apologised to its customers a record number of times. They now want to rob their staff blind.

As a BA pilot I apologise to all in the travelling public for our potential collective actions. We have had enough and in the end are squarely on your side day in and day out. We feel your pain, so please try and see ours. Vote with your feet and give your hard earned money to our competitors. Maybe then they will learn that YOU, our customers should be our number one priority, not the greed of a forever growing bottom line.

It used to be the case, that of the 10,000 professional pilot licence holders in the UK or so at the time, BA employed about one third, the RAF accounted for another third, and the rest worked for what was termed the independents.

Having being the employee of two different subsidiary airlines of BA over the years and having on both occasions found myself redundant, I would anticipate that for those considering working for Open Skies, the future might not be what they anticipated.

But on the other hand; if BA pilots were to go on strike and in the event that BA would hire on contract or employ directly pilots to fly their otherwise grounded fleets, I would have no hesitation in working for BA, on my terms. Given that of the aircraft type ratings I hold, four of those types are currently operated by BA, I may of some use to them.

It would be a bold move from Willie to allow a strike to go ahead; but if he did and given that the proportion of RAF pilots available to airlines has reduced and that the proportion of pilots working for independents has probably increased, I could foresee a situation where BA crew it's aircraft from a mixture of strike breaking BA pilots (probably management, the ones most difficult to replace) and new direct entry pilots.

It should be remembered, that when President Reagan sacked all the US Air Traffic Controllers, the USA did not grind to a halt.

Nor did Continental Airlines when their pilots went on strike simply because they thought that Lorenzo was not serious.

They found out, quick enough...many went back to work straightaway and told ALPA to go fly a kite.

BA pilots are, in their collective mind-set, extremely foolish.

Grows to more than 240 aircraft? I seem to recall it was at that number many years ago. Smoke and mirrors.

Just as a point of information, RAF pilots did not have licences of any kind. They were not required to fly one of HM flying machines. The only RAF pilots with a commercial licence were those who were on the point of leaving the service having done the necessary CAA exams and flight tests.

Summer 2004 customer service staff walk out - 2004/5 Profit 513M
Summer 2005 ground handling staff walk out - 2005/6 Profit 620M
Winter 2007 cabin crew strike (effectively closed the airline) - 2006/7 Profit 611M

British Airways Strike Preparation

APA Communications Committee: Over the last few weeks, APA has expressed its unwavering support for the BALPA members who are fighting British Airways (BA) management’s attempts to outsource flying. The UK carrier is attempting to create an alter ego carrier, “OpenSkies,” using non-BALPA seniority list pilots to conduct 757 transatlantic operations. APA leaders are urging the BA pilots to learn from the mistakes made in the United States. In a video message to the BALPA members, APA President Captain Lloyd Hill warns that “this outsourcing of pilots has… continued to undermine the careers of professional pilots in the United States. Heed our warning, learn from our mistakes – and fight this tooth and nail!”
Recently 86 percent of BALPA pilots voted to authorize a strike in response to the “OpenSkies” operation. If BALPA does conduct a strike to resolve this issue, our support of their efforts will also need to be elevated. Your APA leadership will be directive about our actions in support of BALPA. There are many things we can do to support a BALPA strike, for example:

• APA pilots can show support by participating in BALPA picket lines and/or APA-organized informational pickets in support of BALPA.
• APA pilots can support stranded BA crewmembers by assisting with transportation, lodging and jumpseating (note: BA flight attendants are not eligible to fly on AA cabin jumpseats).
• APA pilots can support BALPA through monetary contributions.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We are with you. Regards, the pilots of AA.

maat,

Your posting history indicates you are generally quite "pro-BALPA" and have been encouraging support at Jet2.

Why do you feel it is right to support BALPA at Jet2 but not at BA?

Ahh but the world has moved on from those days. If BA pilots were to strike on enough occasions (more than 6 times) they would forfeit all their slot holding at LHR in a market that is just about to open up in March.

No LHR slots = no BA

The yanks and Sir Dickie Jumper must be licking their collective lips in anticipation.

I hope Willie is thinking along the same lines. :=

It is a pity to see proffesional pilots using such phrases as 'scab' so openly on a public forum. It is a stark reminder of the miners strikes of decades ago. There are obviously a few very pro-union posters making a lot of noise and rousing the troops onward to battle.

We all have our own position on this issue be us pilots, managers or customers. Mine as a passenger booked to fly during the peak of the strike threat is that strike action in the UK in the long term has never won anything. In the short term you might win a skirmish but as a result the company gets its cards marked by the public as very union driven and volatile. Watch the business crumble over time.

As for me and the family (accused on the other thread as being a 'manager' but defintely not), well I have just had to pay up for our accomodation in the USA or lose it. So I am out of pocket on that. Then the flights have been paid for on both BA and onward with AA. Will my travel insurance pay up if we can't go? I doubt it somehow. That is equally as real to me as your problems are to you.


(yes I know you are fighting for your future, or so your union reps keep telling you, but guess what? The travelling public doesn't give a damn. If you can convince us that by your actions we will benefit in the future, or at least not be worse off, then perhaps we could be made to understand. A union rep had better get on tv quick and try to get Joe Public on your side. Right now I see it as an internal company fight which the public can in the future avoid and let you all get on with it in the same way you would walk around a drunk in the street and not get involved.)

The business is already crumbling, mainly due to the company having had it's cards marked for a while. The travelling public may not give a damn but we do. We are tied to BA for the next however many years. The board and leadership team are not and we are not going to let them get away with destroying the company and our livelihoods and then simply moving on.

Willie Walsh was quoted in one of the broadsheets at the weekend acknowledging that BA had chosen the wrong strategy of cost-cutting rather than actively seeking mergers (maybe someone can provide a link). As a result of this error, they now feel it is a good time to try to make up for it from the employees - and they've started with those who have most to lose and who are most likely to defend their lot.

I am hopeful that this will see significant changes at the top of the company and we can get back to where we belong. If any of the present Leadership Team remain in place after the inevitable blood letting which will follow a strike, their lack of credibility is highly likely to mean that the goodwill which the pilots have shown over the past few years by going the extra mile to make up for the shortfall in service caused by the excessive cost-cutting will be lost.

It didn't have to be this way.

'The travelling public doesn't give a damn.' - and therein lies the problem with the current state of the airline industry. You, the travelling public, has been given all-time low airline fares combined with all-time low standards; and you lap it up. But that has come at the expense (BA and legacy carriers' crews excluded who through sheer 'muscle' have been able to defend their positions) at an erosion of pay and terms and conditions among a very large number of professional pilots over the past 10 years. This assault has been lead by the likes of O'Leary and now Walsh (there is a common factor here) and it is time that it is made quite clear that enough is enough. If it means putting £10 on a seat then so be it.

In my opinion BA crew do not have to get the public 'on side'. It is an internal dispute but the only way in which such disputes hit home is when the shareholders' bottom-line is hit. And have no worries, this will not bring BA down - Irish upstarts might.

Judge11, are you referring to the traveling public who was previously not allowed to travel the world using monopoly companies - because they were not rich enough? And by the way there's only one 'l' in traveling, Mr High Standards.

You should add to your list of truly dreadful people Mr Henry Ford. Before that bastard came along, only decent wealthy people were to be found in motor cars on public roads. Well, I guess he wasn't Irish, so maybe he doesn't make your list. I assume that's why you left Stelios out, anyway.

P

There are no winners in a strike.

I think it a dreadful shame that so-called professional people start to sling the s**t like you lot are.

To BALPA, get your act together, get involved in a constructive dialogue with BA.

Luddites went out existance years ago, along with the dinosoars!!

'scuse the spelling

MP;)

So; Mods, obviously this is a very emotive issue, but are the comments that ACMS made (post number 17) really acceptable for a professional forum?

As an aside - Judge11 - so the the public are prepared to take a little less luxury and pay a lot less money for the privelege? What fools eh?

Unfortunately the days of BA giving the standard of service that every airline aspired to are long gone - they are no better than other national carriers. The public must be brought on side as it is the public who hold your future employment in their hands.

I do not think any member of public with a little common sense would deny the rights of BA pilots in the issues facing them, however the attitude of a minority of BA staff which is "you get what you get, like it or lump it" is in danger of becoming more pervasive and will if not corrected, be the real risk to the future of BA.

StudentInDebt wrote:

Sorry-----Cabin Crew did NOT go on strike in Winter 2007!
Many see it as WW handling of the situation which caused the problems.

Shame, though
 

Well, I've got Easter flights booked with BA and 1500 quid's worth of flat booked at the other end, which won't be covered under travel insurance. I'm perfectly happy for BA staff to strike in support of their Ts and Cs, but in common with a lot of people I can't say that through anything other than gritted teeth. My reading of the various postures from the participants is that Walsh will shut the airline down, cancel the T5 move and sit it out.

All the seniority in the world won't help pilots if as a result BA lose LHR slots in the EU-US Open Skies slot auction (isn't there a provision that airlines applying for slots have to have a history of uninterrupted service), and given the middle class propensity to holiday at Easter it'll have a major on-going impact on business travel (people who have lost money on holidays won't race to book tickets).

It's up to the pilots what to do, and it's a shame that BA, ACAS and BALPA can't reach an agreement. But pilots who believe that `winning' a strike is a guarantee of long-term employment are invited to visit a mining town: you can win the battle, but lose the war.

Good luck with the negotiations. But even speaking as a staunch supporter of labour rights and the rights of trade unions I can't say that 1500 quid sits easily.

Sorry BALPA, you won't win in the long term on this one. You will bring the airline down with you and you will be out of a job. Tell that to the wife and kids (in public school) when you cant cough up the fees. The bank manager won't give a rats a**** who the hell you think you are. All they are interested is the money.

The days of the glory boys at the front end of the aircraft who think their own s*** doesn't stink, are long gone. An airline has to slim down to survive.

I used to think like you lot and was very militant years ago but soon learnt that they will always get pilots to do your job, make no mistake.

Pilots will never stick together as a group, never and BA know it. Sooner or later, ranks will be broken and a lot of you will be back with your tails between your legs, willing to work for anything, or next to nothing. Then you will be victims of the oldest management trick in the book, divide and rule.

Exactly, mate. So why hasn't BA reduced the headcount per airframe from 177 to something more realistic?

Probably explains the huge chip on your shoulder.:rolleyes:

What the hell do you think we're trying to prevent? Or have you missed the entire Open Skies debate?

xyzzy

Don’t worry, airlines traditionally get round preserving slots by leasing in aircraft to operate short versions of the routes from nearby regional airports.

Easy money for the minnows who can provide the airframes. Not sure what size of airframe is required to keep LHR happy these days, they used to use Small piston twins. Recently, a four engined jet was leased in by a well known Southern Hemsphere flag carrier in order to operate EMPTY:ugh: Manchester to Heathrow and back three times a day for two years to preserve slots. Probably 2-3 million litres of fuel burnt carrying nothing but fresh air. Interestingly, BAConnect bid for this work, but according to BA management, the nasty BA BALPA CC refused to allow it. Funny old thing, it turned out that was not actually true. :rolleyes:

This might be a clever trick to get round the rules, but I can’t see our friends at Greenpeace keeping quiet. It wouldn’t sit well with the Respecting our World policy either:=, unless this has already been thought of and WW compensates by turning Waterside into a giant composter and planting a million trees. :ok:

They're halfway there already! :E

RTFP
 

right at the start of this thread a first time poster called bigbobblogs posted something titled "BA PRESS RELEASE" then there was a narrative obviously cut and paste. Then BBB typed the word "ENDS" to signify the ending of the press release. It looks to me like the only word BBB used which was his own was the word "ends", and typed very eloquently i may add :)

av8r and dave bloke: can you please explain why you attacked this poster, or should i say "cut and paster". From his typing of the word "ends" you seem to have deduced he
1. is BA management
2. is about to loose a lot of money if the strike goes ahead

This is NOT a comment on the potential strike, I am just curious about BA pilots deductive powers. Maybe BBB has made more posts which give his identity away which I have not seen and maybe, av8r and dave, you have had clashes with this person before. If so, I understand your reasons for your posts, but it really does say "1 post" beside his name as of today???

btw, p stands for "post" in my title! :)

Now, as a comment on the potential strike........matt; you need to re-evaluate your personal principles. you are a very sick individual who is in need of counseling. I do believe that you can be re-aligned with the rest of humanity, but you will need to recognise that you may need to help to get it done.

The usual suspects come out of the woodwork at times like this.
Where's Oneworld22? No predictions of DOOM for BA? He must be snoozing.

BA guys - ignore the defeatists. Their sole aim is to demoralise and dispirit you. IALPA fought their own corner in the face of the same threats and propaganda. They got their bottom lines secured as a result. Don't wimp out.

The above poster has rolled over and accepted his defeat. He is now being exploited, and is resentful that you are in a better situation. He wants to see you dragged down to his level. This would be a good outcome for him. This says everything about the value of his opinions.

Good luck. You'll win if you stand strong.

Having read this thread and the other regarding the BA/BALPA/OS issue, I find it amazing that BA now faces a strike by it's pilots over OS.

Surely those working in the airline industry know better than ANYONE employed today (in any line of work) that you cannot successfully fight the effects of this type of globalisation? We live in an age of great change in all industries and as much as I hate to admit it, there is simply no way that employees can dictate what a company can and cannot do anymore - those days are pretty much over. Especially when that company has become a by-word for industrial dispute and inconvenience. Competition is a very real threat as much as we would all like to pretend it isn't.

At the very least I would urge those considering industrial action to consider this: Many people will look at you and consider you all to be very lucky indeed - you do a job you love (presumably?) and one for which there is a large list of wannabees waiting to join you. You are well rewarded (always have been) and will doubtless continue to be so. Compared to those losing their jobs in manufacturing or in others non-airline industries your position is - to put it mildly - seen in a different light to how you see it...

Your pain and frustration at your employer is, in your own eyes, justified and very real. But be prepared for others to feel differently and to take their money elsewhere. At the very least, your union should be seeking to minimise the disruption to your customers by ensuring an Easter free of travel chaos.

Background: I have nothing to do with the airline industry (although I am a BAEC Silver so do fly your airline) but I do work for a union (NOT Balpa!!) and I see you being backed into a corner by your own.

My sincere hope is for some sanity to prevail in this dispute. On both sides.

Bomber,

Circumstancial evidence to be fair. BBB's post was a straight copy of something on a secure BA server and posted here very shortly after it appeared there. The reason for my suspicion is a combination of the fact that BBB has only made one post and that he didn't make any sort of comment about the post or it's origin. Almost as if it was his own words.:rolleyes:

Most regular posters on Prune will acknowledge that you can usually spot a BA line pilot a mile off and BBB almost certainly isn't one. You have to be one or the other in order to have had access to that statement at that time.;)

Remember on previous threads, there've been a few "multiple identity" BA managers posting and agreeing with themselves.:mad:

Thanks Dave, I see your point now. So he has access to the secure server. And I guess you're deducing that a BA pilot would start the post by saying "look at the latest bull they're feeding us". OK, all sounds reasonable. Well BBB hasn't resurfaced again so that tends to back up what you're saying.

Well, if you are right, then I guess the management are not feeling that secure if they are looking for the support of the rest of the pilot community.

Actually I think it's quite humorous to think someone on the team at the helm of a multi billion dollar international corporation is posting titbits on a pilots forum to try make the minions loose friends. I wonder how much that job pays? :confused:

People do post some arse on here! BA losing it's slots at Heathrow? We'd have to go on strike for 60 days before that happened, and Wee Willie and his cronies would be out of a job before we got half way to that. Something to look forward to I suppose!

Question from a concerned customer
 

Hi there,

I am a customer of BA and wanted the honest truth from you guys. My family is going to be flying on BA on the 19th of March out to london to come and visit.

Seeing as things have not gone so well with the talks, can anyone give me an impression of what they think is going to happen in the coming day? Will my family be able to get out here on the 19th? Are there any suggestions you can make for me, as we have a lot of money spent into this trip?


I hope someone can respond. Thank you.

Pedroboy
 

Pedroboy - Are you another BA Manager on a "fishing expedition"?!