Three things used to shape our society... Moral cause, Social responsibility and Financial need. Now there is only one - Financial greed has replaced Financial need.

Willie Walsh speaks of social responsibility in one breath whilst screwing the workforce in the next. His generation of businessmen will pride themselves on making a buck from whatever they can, be it degrading a well respected product or demoralising the workforce..... And he will take pride in doing it.

The next time your BA flight is cancelled look very carefully at the reasons for it. They will now cancel and consolidate flights at the drop of a hat, any old excuse will do as long as it diverts any blame away from BA. They end up are saving costs by flying fewer planes...... and they get away with it as nobody understands the inner workings of aviation. Is this what we expect of our national airline?

What sort of socially responsible manager takes advantage of poor foreign labour laws and make long serving International Cabin Crew redundant in order to re-employ them on lesser T&C with forced retirement at 45.

Fair Trade ?!?!

His generation will make a buck wherever they can with no morals whatsoever.... They will do whatever they can get away with. It is time this generation were held to account.

The baxfactor
 

In view of Lufthansa's pilots' reported past strike actions and threat of strike actions (see result of Googling 'Lufthansa strike' below), should you not be transferring your custom to a country where strikes are banned by law?

Regards

Stoic

Hand solo - If someone had said a decade ago that China would be the dominant world economy, that the US and the UK would have to go to them to raise money, you'd have laughed.

The pilots may not be around this year - but what about 5 years time? Who wouldn't lay a bet that India and China's booming economies don't see a huge surge in the amount of trained pilots (like thousands of software developers being trained in the last 5 years and now working here) - I assume there is good money to be made in it as a career choice so I would fully expect the numbers wanting to train to increase in the developing worlds.

My point is that we all like to think we are a 'special case' - but the fact is no one can afford to sit in an ivory tower and say "not me - I'm special"

Just because things change in a way you don't want them to, doesn't make the situation any less real - whether you strike or not, whether you get what you want or not, someone always ends up paying with their job:(

...and if we do go on strike it will be the first time in nearly 3 decades that BA pilots have done so. And it will be with a heavy heart because the travelling public deserve better.

Direct your ire at BA management. We ask for no improvement to our T&Cs. We ask for no money. We are willing to do this for the cost-base that BA 'needs'. All we ask is a common seniority list.

BBB wrote:

We did not. BA said take it or leave it. We are still willing to talk.


So why ignore our concerns & refuse to talk for 6 months?

So why did BA walk out of the Standing Conference, and now, offer us something that they knew would be unacceptable to us?

Downright lie. Verbal assurances have no validity. If they can offer assurances verbally, then why can they not bring themselves to put pen to paper and amend Schedule K?

Couldn't agree more. We want to be part of this new venture. Why exclude us when we have stated all along that we will do it to your costings?

Err, that's all pretty much been the case since late last year when we agreed to Work Coverage issues that we negotiated (at much cost to the pilots' bidding 'freedoms') which will cover retirements & for the first time see Reserve Pilots being calculated properly. At the moment the 'Reserve' number of pilots is under-resourced. Three hundred pilots & 240 a/c over two years ain't expansion - it's treading water (more-or-less). Nice try though.

The key word here is 'planned'. Anything over-and-above six; we get no say whatsoever. What if OS gets to fifty, or a hundred and fifty?

Tell that to the FOs who will wait a lifetime for a command! Taken straight from the Boston Consultancy Group's book that one...

And I'll say it again. We offered to do it on BA's costings. They flatly said "no". Why?

BALPA have stated all along that if the business can afford an increase in the T&Cs of OpenSkies pilots it will be aiming for that. Just like LGW. Just like any good Union should. It is important to emphasize that the key word here is 'if'. We have no desire to see OS fail, assuming the pilots are on the MSL. We wish it to succeed. Should the pilots not be on the MSL then we hope it falls on it's 4rse before it becomes the dreaded trojan horse like Jetstar, ClickAir etc.

Utter tosh. BA have not, ever, costed Mainline crews doing W-patterns. They have no idea if it would be cheaper or more expensive to do so. BA will be charging full BA fares in OS. Are we really to believe that given its (supposedly lower) cost base it will lose money if pilots are on the same Seniority List? Given that the pilots have offered to do it for the price BA wanted? It simply does not add up, nor make any sense.


Good luck to them. My Union has been at pains to follow the letter of the law so the injunction should fail. BA, as usual, have lied and 'spun' to it heart's content.

Likewise. Just change 'customers' to 'members'. We too feel for our customers caught in this crossfire, engineered, from my perspective, wholly by BA.

Well it took us 6 months to get you to talk in the first place. We then talked for a few weeks and you said "Take it or leave it". YOU walked out of the Standing Conference. We agreed to concilliation. You again said "Take it or leave it". YOU again walked out. WE are still willing to listen to you despite your intransigence. You had better get a move on. You have only got just over a week left...

Meanwhile, to the travelling public who put up with the embarrassment that is BA and endure the calamity that is BAA/Heathrow, our sincere and heartfelt apologies for the grief that you will surely suffer. 99.9% of BA pilots have no desire to strike and inconvenience you, but I am afraid we have been left no choice. Strike we will.

I'm still gobsmacked that a TU is fighting to protect a mechanism that constrains a member's ability to move between carriers in the pursuit of better terms and conditions? :rolleyes:

Yes but then you never were the sharpest tool in the box pacamack.

Strike if you must. And destroy your employer, perhaps, in the process. I really don't care what happens. A pox on both your houses.

But whatever the rights and wrongs of your case, for f***s sake spare us the sanctimonious bull and crocodile tears of ................

You are using your customers - the travelling public - and their anger and inconvenience as your weapon. That's what strikes are for. So cut the c**p.

I'm not. I'm using the huge amount of lost revenue for BA and the inconvenience of having their aircraft stranded all over the world as my weapon. What you think of it has absolutely nothing to do with how this battle plays out. If BA decided to fly all the aircraft as freighters only I's dtill be out on strike.

Capot,

swear properly if you must... but I can absolutely assure you in the 12 years I flown with BA I have never seen any arrogant or uncaring attitude from a pilot towards passengers; more like utter frustration that we are prevented from providing the service....yes SERVICE that you and all the other passengers deserve. Non of us go to work with the intention of failing in our job. Its extremely ignorant of you to slag off a group of highly motivated and professional men & women. (that includes all airlines)

would it be true to suggest that you don't personaly know any BA pilots because the attitudes you assume we have went out many years ago.??

No, does not work quite that easy. The Chinese FTO's are maxed out. Recent figures shows China to end up with a pilot shortage of about 8-9000....at the end of 2011 (2012). Besides usually the problem in Asia is not licensed pilots, its the lack of experienced and well trained pilots, like the ones flying for BA.

Good luck to the BA guys and gals!! :ok:

CP

pacamack has to be on a wind-up surely ???

It's not about preventing employees moving from carrier to carrier.....

Have I bitten on that bait ???

Another disagreement with a pilot, another personal insult. I detect a pattern emerging. It's no wonder BALPA are having problems trying to get a resolution through ACAS. :ugh:

Touche my friend.

Another view
 

If I may can I give you a view of BA from the independent travel agents' standpoint. Almost everybody in the business regard BA as arrogant, selfrighteous, pompous and deserving of lost business. Their attitude towards customers and agents is universally seen to be apalling. Naturally this is relative. Personally I have always found the CC good - pehaps surly sometimes and with some members looking as if they were working on the H P Heracles - and the pilots I know and meet no better or worse than others.

If this strike takes place there will be no sympathy from the general public - there very rarely is for strikers but it will damage the profitability of BA and somebody is going to suffer. Who do you feel has the "whip hand" - Walsh or the BALPA leaders? Walsh has I can assure you. His role permits him to take whatever action is necessary in the interests of the company and if the very impressive ballot has not moved him the strike itself certainly will not. It may just mean a marginal improvement in terms but they will soon be dissipated by planned cost recovery action from the management.

My advice - keep talking. There is ALWAYS a satisfacory compromise BUT I really would strongly advise against the strike. The "glad all over" feeling you may get from seeing a large turn-out will fade when the changes to meet the cost of the strike to the company begin to come home to roost. Good luck but TALK TALK TALK.

Once again......

No it does not. There are laws relating to industrial action, and whilst BA's management have shown themselves to pay scant regard to the law, they don't get away with it. An impressive strike ballot was never going to move him. Grounded aircraft and no income will. He's got form on that.

How many times must it be said? We are not seeking any improvement in our terms.

We have been trying to talk since June, actually talking since December and have returned for five days of talking after the ballot result. BA has not moved one inch.

There was no glad all over feeling in BA, everybody knew a messy strike would be necessary to change to companys mind. Perhaps you don't understand that the future for BA pilots if we lose this one is far, far worse than the costs the company might seek to recover from us. Thats what the whole dispute is about.

interpreter,

BALPA has been talking for sometime. The option to go back to the table after the strong mandate was taken in hopes of a resolution. BA more than likely used these talks as a delaying tactic. We are out of options and it is time to show the company that quite simply enough is enough. The contempt that the company shows on a day to day basis to our customers and partners like yourself is a major source of fuel to the fire in our fight. We day in day out see the frustration of the people who pay our wages. Now BA want us to pay for it.

Line in the sand I am afraid, and the feeling is much deeper than our managers believe. None of this want this but it is what it is, and the fun and games are over.

"Idol Detent" I believe sums it up perfectly.
The company counsel (BACC) will meet shortly and review last weeks sham talks. They have gone through all the hoops and assuming they are still resolute will be planning the dispute in great detail.
Make no mistake it will be planned like a military operation.Under current industrial law an official dispute gives strikers significant protection, even if BA sacks its pilot workforce, 90 days has to elapse before they are able to recruit replacement pilots. How they hope to find, train, and organise the replacement of 3000 skilled people will be impossible. Clearly they will seek to cherry pick those they want back, but as a condition of returning to work the union will seek reinstatment of all as a precondition.
To illustrate how BA had no intention of reaching an agreement, one only has to look at March's "High Life" Mag, in which there is an article about the OS project. They had the arrogance to publish this article when they they were telling the travelling public at precisely the same moment they were at ACAS seeking conciliation.
Hold fast lads, determined pilots are very difficult to beat, we have all seen how just a little hicup at LHR causes significant problems, this dispute will be nothing to whats gone before. I shall be very interested to see the BA share price next week.

I'm going to wait for Iberia to launch a take-over bid when BA's share price falls in. Then the Spanish will be able to bring the main UK airline's passenger service down to the same Third World level to which they've already reduced the UK's main airport. :yuk:

toro

No it would not be true, as it happens...................

I didn't assume any attitude, I copied from a post made at 1904 today.

I think you missed the point; I was protesting at the stupidity of people who strike in order to lose their employer a great deal of money, by causing their customers to go elsewhere; in short, using the customers as a weapon.

It is so like BA staff to assume that the customers will simply come back again when they decide to go back to work, because "BA is best".

Read interpreter's post very carefully.

Conduct your battles with management in private, through the courts or however you like, including just quitting if BA is so awful an employer. There's a shortage of aircrew; I'm sure you'll find a job somewhere very soon. Not quite the same terms as BA, of course, but there you go, that's the real world.

I can not believe all the moaning and complaints from these BA people! Face the fact that you are one of the "chosen" and more fortunate in UK more than any person working for easy, Ryanair,eastern or for that matter Air Berlin etc...
Be happy what you have,since 85% of people doing your job in this industry don't have the chance to even get their parking paid so...bugger off.

Cheers:)

Skydrol failed the aptitude test did we??

Inconsistency
 

I've read some of the correspondence on this subject but not all because being a very old but not very bold ex BA pilot, I've spent the last month of my hard earned retirement on a loooong holiday. I do not understand why BALPA appears to be fighting for Open skies pilots to be on a common seniority list when they refused to let GSS co-pilots join the BA list but at the same time forced GSS to engage potential captains from mainline. If I have missed something, please tell me. I fully understand the threat to BA pilots and they have my support. However I think BALPA treated their GSS co-pilot members in a manner which is inconsistent with regard to their present position on Open Skies.

The GSS arrangement requires all BAWC flying to be returned in-house (probably with the co-pilots) if the operation ever requires more than four (?) B744s. My understanding is that was the best deal at the time. That protection still stands. Not ideal but there it is.

Perhaps if BA had been receptive to a similar arrangement for OS (something like if it ever requires more than the initial six aircraft, it reverts to mainline), we may not have found ourselves in the current predicament. Unfortunately, that would prevent BA from doing a QANTAS/Jetstar, which is probably why it never came up.

Firstly, the GSS issue is discussed repeatedly in the previous BA ballot thread. I suggest you read that for the details. Secondly, do not confuse BALPA as a whole with the BACC. BALPAs job is to look after pilots as a whole, but not to divvy up BAs works for anyone who wants a share. The BACCs role is to protect the interests of BA pilots. The GSS deal was negotiated by the BACC as the price BA had to pay to operate 744Fs without the pilots on the mainline seniority list. If there were no secondees to GSS then there would be no GSS. Incidentally, the size and scope of GSS is tied up pretty tightly with BA. Any more than 4 freighters and the whole operation reverts to mainline. No such guarantees on offer from BA for Open Lies.

Skydrol - You (and many others posting here) have totally missed the point that BALPA and the BA pilots are trying to make. It is not about glorifying themselves, or not being happy with what they have, its about PROTECTING what they have. This is something many other pilot groups should start doing as well. There is a clear agenda amongst the British airlines to erode (further erode!) our T&Cs and it is our duty to protect the very same T&Cs.

Capot:

Sorry if you feel I was being sanctimonious. I prefer sincerity. You can, of course, choose as you wish. :rolleyes:


Er, no Capot, BA management are using our passengers as their weapon of choice. Time & again, day in, day out, we voluntarily break our industrial agreements to keep the show on the road for the benefit of the travelling public (and rightly so). BA are now using our 'can-do, must-do' attitude against us-they think we will capitulate in the face of bad press and public disquiet in order to beat us. Sadly, this time, we've had enough. I will shed no tears, crocodile or otherwise, but I will (sanctimoniously) feel truly sorry for Joe Public caught in the crossfire....

If you want to get on your high-horse then suit yourself. It speaks volumes to me when all that someone can retort with is a bunch of expletives.


Skydrol Leak wrote:
You've obviously come in to this debate and shot from the hip. :ugh:

I would "be happy what you have" except that BA are going to use OpenSkies as a means of doing away with "what I have". I do consider myself more fortunate than others in this industry, but why would I want to let BA have its cake & eat it? So that I can be bitter & twisted in 5 years time wishing I'd had the backbone to stand up to these Corporate Muggers in 2008? I don't think so. I've given them increased productivity (~30% since c2001). I've given them 22% of my pension (2006/7) and I've given them licence to mess with my roster more to solve their Work Coverage problem. I'm not going to stand by and have them take my CURRENT T&Cs and have them supplanted with OS T&Cs without a fight.

I don't get my parking paid either...costs me £400/year. And what's that got to do with the price of fish? Another cogent argument. Another expletive. :ugh: You're going to have to do better than that to convince me & my colleagues that we are all wrong and you are right.

I'm beginning to see why most of my colleagues avoid this site like the plague...you need the patience of a saint. Too many people jump in without educating themselves. Differing viewpoints I can take, but ignorance.........

Regards

id

There are many pilots out there in other airlines who have a very good understanding of why you need to do this and support you regardless of whether they are on inferior conditions or not. That’s because they suffered at the hands of BA management through the five year fiasco that was BACX / Bacon. This company was created out of two reasonably successful regional airlines where pilot attrition rates were relatively low - particularly amongst Captains. Probably less than one trainer left per year. Three years into Bacon and well before WW really started swinging his axe, leaving rates were up to 25% and at least half the company were actively trying to find alternative employment.
Our great leader slashed half the bases, and any route which showed any sign of sucking business from LHR was stopped dead.

So having made such a mess of the regional subsidiary operation, why do BA managers think they can make a success of OS? What has changed? What will they do that is significantly different?

Sorry but was that a quote of 3,000 staff involved in this dispute? Why do I only see a very few posting on here in such an aggressive manner. Obviously Hand Solo and Idol Detent are leading stir mongerers for the union.

A couple of decades ago I had a choice of becoming a commercial pilot or going elsewhere in the aviation industry. I chose elsewhere and have never looked back. But I always held professional pilots in a fairly high esteem.

Certain industry should not go on strike, Police, Fireman, Ambulanceman etc. But pilots I always took to be above all this. To strike is to lower yourselves in the publics eyes.

A while ago there was a very long thread on PPrune about how pilots were not viewed the same way as many years ago. The industry had lost its charisma. Now you lot want to go and confirm that pilots are just the same as any other shop floor worker. Where has that magic and pride gone?

....and by the way, in response to a comment several pages back, I do not buy a ticket to ride based on cost alone. I have never flown Squeezy Jet or Rynanair and God willing never will. I have always paid to fly with the good guys. But now I wonder why.

( and no....Mr Walsh may be driven out in the end, fall on his sacrificial sword in good dramatic pose. But it will be a rubber 'stage' sword and his back pocket will be stuffed with a golden handshake.)

The answer VC, is that most BA pilots don't bother with this place because it's full of trolls, envious types and people who can't be bothered to read the thread but want to air their grievances anyway. Most BA pilots stay away from here for the sake of their sanity.

Perhaps your slightly dewy eyed view of the profession has withstood the test of time. The unfortunate reality for us is that we are no longer regarded as professionals by anyone but our peers. We are a resource to be sweated, a cost to be reduced. Sure, our management mouth platitudes about their appreciation for us, but by their actions they are judged. You think striking is beneath us. I don't claim to occupy such a lofty position, but there seems to be a serious shortage of suggestions from the concerned public about how we should influence our management when they refuse to budge through months of negotiation and days of conciliation. The logical conclusion to draw is that you all believe we should throw our hands in the air and say "tough luck, we'll just have to bend over and take it". Well I'm afraid we don't see it that way. Pride doesn't pay the bills buddy, and I can't take Willie Walshs assurances to the bank.

Most of us are on the BALPA forum, because there is little point in engaging with those who are not prepared to understand the issues.

<sigh> VC you'll find out soon enough.

Hmm, 'stir mongerer'? 'Leading stir mongerer'? - first time for everything I suppose.
I'm not a rep - Bog Standard line pilot fighting for what I believe is right. As for aggressive...I only bite if yer naughty! :)

Strike
 

My message to the BA pilots is: Evolve or die. Your competitors are evolving

hatcheth,

Here here!

L Met

Evolve or die - thanks for that soundbite. Adds nothing to our understanding of the situation, but it's nice to hear the chants of the playground on this forum. I quite understand why most BA pilots do not bother with this nonsense and frequent places with debate at an intellectual level higher than that of the kindergarten.:ugh:

Am I management or do I have a chip on my shoulder? The arrogance of a small number of people on both sides amazes me.

Skydrol leak said: The 'chosen' - ie chosen by BA having passed their selection procedure. You're very welcome to join us skydrol, we need 400-ish pilots in the next 12 months.

We are happy with what we have, we do not ask for more, we just need to update our agreements in the face of changing legislation. Confused about your parking comment.

Now you bugger off.. :}:)

Did someone mention the playground? Let's agree that both sides are using the poor passengers as their weapon. Does it make any difference? The airline is going to hell in a handcart while this nonsense goes on. Any day now there won't be any passengers.

Well, aren't we all.

hatcheth

I am not BA, but I am aware of their terms and conditions. How do you think they can evolve? They are already working to limits or at least the artificial limits imposed by trying to work out of LHR. They have a good rostering system, which seems to be able to produce maxmum efficiency in terms of hours on seat, so what's the probem? They are paid well, but no more than their mainline competitors and probably not much more than the so called LoCo competitors. Time to command issues and the rempval of the FS pession probably means that some FO's will be signifcantly wore off over a career span than ther equivalents in the Charter / LOco World. They they do not have ridiculous allowances. They simply get Duty pay at a rate appropriate for touring round Europe and LH.


Please explain what you mean by adapting. Adapting to what level?


I work for a LoCo, am home vritually every night and at the moment am probably earling as much per flying hour as a BA LH capt. I also have my medicals paid for and free parking.

In terms of evolving, I mean that BA is not a state owned entity and BA staff do not have a job for life. Pilots are a commodity in an open market, as is all labour in today's global economy.

Thanks for that Hatcheth. There is nothing in your two sentences that I was unaware of...

We have evolved over the years to be the most profitable airline in the world. How did we manage that? By standing still? Gimme strength....:ugh:

BA pilots have been accused of:

Using passengers as a weapon
Not talking
Being militant
Not being flexible
Stuck in our ways
Arrogant
Chosen
Lucky
etc etc

I have only posted 30 or so messages on this forum and am tiring of the sniping, envy, jealousy and downright hatred posted by a small number of persons who quite frankly have put forward no coherent argument as to why ~3000 pilots are wrong and that they are correct. All I hear is soundbites: so typical of GB 2008. Full of vitriol and bile with nothing much to say except expletives.

How sad that some of us who actually care about our passengers and post our reasoning are immediately set upon by people who should have stood up for themselves whilst they had the chance/backbone. And now all they have left is their bitter animosity for comfort. How sad.

And with that, to the relief of a few no doubt, I will sit out the rest of this thread. I have tried to explain our reasoning and the impact that striking will have on us personally. Some, it would seem, have no intention of listening, and that, for me, is the most frustrating thing of all.

Good luck HS, Overstress & others - you have greater patience for this than I do.