I find it hard to believe that talks have broken down already.

In this age of mass globalisation it is a fact (however unwelcome) that employees cannot entirely dictate terms and conditions to their employers in the same way they could 20 or 30 years ago. No matter how deeply felt the pain and frustration you feel towards BA, the *only* winners in this dispute will be BA's competitiors.

According to the BBC report (online) your terms and conditions are amongst the best in the industry and your employer has already agreed to ensure that they will remain unaffected by the new OS subsidiary - to insist that the "BA family" shouldn't be "broken up" is not going to gain you the sympathy of the public or wash as a reason for striking as it seems no more that trying to ringfence your way of life - a luxury that unfortunately few working people have today (and compared to say losing a manufacturing job without prospect of reemployment...?)

I honestly share the pain of those who are facing a future of uncertainty change (that's most of us at work!) but don't allow the union to back you into a corner and lose what support you do have.

You may win a minor victory by striking - but what then? If you think a strike will stop future changes (both within BA and other airlines), it may be time to question Balpa's handling of OS. To an outsider like me, they seem somewhat out of touch with reality.

Cavitation---Yet another manager joining the party!?!
BA must be desperate!

Pedroboy,

I cannot speak with any authority as I am just a member of BALPA. However, I think these injunction cases are dealt with pretty swiftly, so if the judge decides on Monday 10th to permit a strike, BALPA would probably give the requisite 7 days' notice shortly thereafter. So a strike could begin on the 17th at the earliest, which would probably curtail your family's visit I'm afraid. If they are able to change their plans now, I should think that would be a good idea. Alternatively, hang onto the tickets and travel at a later date.

I cannot believe you guys are considering strike action over this - being a Luddite is obviously a requirement for employment as a pilot with BA. Or perhaps more accurately you have to be a Luddite to belong to BALPA.
:bored:

No - I don't work for BA or Balpa or Virgin or anyone even remotely concerned with the airline industry.

I do fly though! :)

Are BA desperate? They sound fairly confident to me. One thing I do know from dealing with businesses (big and small) over the last few decades, is that they get where they want to go increasingly without a thought to what their employees want or expect. That is the true (and horribly harsh) lesson to be learned from globalisation.

Sadly I just don't think the airline industry is immune from this effect and that things will get worse before they get better (if they ever do?) OS seems to me to be just the start of very far ranging changes for all - one strike isn't going to change that. Sad but true.

SQC

Do you know what a "Luddite" is? Pray tell how you can term the BA pilots as such...


(Jeez, the ignorance shown by some is astounding. They must be management)

I am not a BA manager, I am actually a student at King's College who hasnt seen his family in seven months. I have been waiting for September for my family to come, and I simply cannot believe that this is happening.

Any one else with any advice and suggestions?

Well the original Luddite was an individual who didn't want to see any improvement in efficiency in the cotton mills of old. Isn't this what you BALPA guys are up to by opposing the BA attempt to profit from the new open skies agreement?

SQC

A Luddite is someone who is against TECHNOLOGICAL change. Pray tell us where the advance in technology is in this dispute.

Not quite - improved productivity either by new technology or better work practices is still improved productivity. Why can't you see that Luddite?

As a member of BALPA & a BA pilot (I do apologise) I can assure you that the BACC do not want to screw around with our passengers or mess up the T5 move. Unfortunately due process has to be followed, concilliation,courts etc and only then will a (hopefully not) strike date be announced. There is no sinister subtext as far as I am aware to cause more pain to our customers especially around the holiday period.

We are not luddites and I was brought up in a mining/mill family up north, to compare a failing manual industry with a booming service sector is ridiculous and unnecessarily emotive.

Lets hope it will be resolved, however can assure those of you 'outside' the BA pilot community our resolve of the mainly reasonable moderate, senior/junior, P1/P2 shorthaul/longhaul is very firm.

Not improved productivity either SQ, the OS pilots are only contracted to fly the same working hours I achieved last year. Keep trying though, you're entertaining me with your desperation.

Why is it that anyone who appears to construct a cogent argument not in favour of the pilots is accused of being a manager? You can do better than this lads, it's not the inquisition.

I wouldn't say that name-calling from 'Singapore' is a cogent argument.. :hmm:

Perhaps it's because most of the 'cogent' arguments are from people who post exclusively on this subject, deliberately miss the point of the debate and rattle off points that look eerily similar to BAs corporate communication pieces?

Good Luck Guys and Girls at BA.

With Saunders and McAuslan at the BALPA helm you will need it!

Again SQL, the luddites wre against the TECHNOLOGY advances (which in turn would have taken jobs from them). The issue was the use of machinery replacing people, NOT "improving efficiency", etc.

Now, stop trying to twist history.

Our employer agreed to ensure that the regional bases would stay open as well.

Do you see the problem?

People seem to be criticising BA pilots for standing up for themselves purely on the basis that no one else has got away with doing so for a decade or two, so why should we? Just because others do not stand united to do what is right, does not mean we should follow suit! If you are convinced we will not be able to pull it off, fine that is your opinion. Why not wish us luck and wait and see?

If you are a member of the travelling public, I am sorry this might cause you concern or inconvenience, or even distress. You can send your complaints to BA management. We are simply the pilots, and we are exercising our right to defend our terms and conditions. We have no say over what management decide to do. We can try to influence them, but if they want us to go to a strike, we will. It is that simple.

As for any managers who may or may not be trying to stir up trouble here; who honestly gives a monkeys? I have zero respect for our management, just as they quite clearly have zero respect for me.

I am amazed by the number of posters that begrudge other citizens their legal rights. Is it not a legal right to strike in the United Kingdom any more?
Let us hope that these posters are not put into a similar position and not only have to battle their employer for decent Terms and Conditions, but put up with sniping and belittling from their neighbours and the general public.

Most people these days think Luddite is short hand for obstructive labour objecting to innovative ways to improve productivity. To those who say productivity will not increase then why do BA want to do this?

I believe I bothered to post (when I've never bothered to post before although I've been a long time lurker mostly for the humour!) because I have been (about 10 years ago) in a position similar to the one that BACC find themselves in now.

My colleagues and I (I'm talking about a sector of the financial services industry - not the airline industry) were faced with outsouring and a threat (as we saw it) to our future terms and conditions. I can't tell you how much I hated the employer at that time (I still feel bitterness now if I'm honest) and we were fully engaged with our union (a company endorsed section of the TUC) in trying to ensure that the proposed changes were withdrawn.

Suffice to say that our small victory was a pyrrhic one - we didn't get to strike as the management agreed so some (not all) demands. I ended up redundant just under 3 years later as did many of my colleagues (it wasn't lost on us exactly WHO was made redundant)

I suppose I see reflections of that time in the tone and bitterness of many of the posts here. I don't know if I would do anything differently if I had the time again (perhaps I would have sought alternative emploment earlier?) but I do know that after my own experience I would simply ask anyone is the service sector (which can be so easily outsourced) to think long and hard about what life is like post strike. You may feel bad now but what about after a strike? What if, a year from now EU legislation makes what BA want to do perfectly legal and acceptable - what will your strike achieve?

This is an honest question for anyone here - if you do strike, do you expect BA to capitulate? If so, what happens then? I believe they could simply adapt their proposals and get what they want at a later date (rather like the re-appearance of the EU 'treaty' which looks and smells like the old one but apparently isn't...:))

I do NOT have any affiliations with BA or BAA or any airline (apart from owning a silver BAEC card). But I am interested in labour relations and transport in general...

I take no position on either side of the argument, all I would say is that both sides need to step back and think of the end user of the product, the customer.

He has a choice of airlines, a customer lost sometimes never returns. A lost customer means a lower profit, a lower profit leads to loss of jobs.

I am all for the BA pilots going on strike. Cabin crew as well. May be then a sh*t airline will go out of business at long last opening the way for other carriers to move in and take over. They cannot be any worse.

I am with the pilots. I hate BA too.

How much profit did that airline make this year? Stick to being a wannabee.

So the mainline pilots want the 'open skies' pilots on the seniority list. And BA management don't.

Is that really worth striking about?

From my point of view, I guess that management must think so- otherwise they'd simply agree to the mainline pilots' demand and the threat of industrial action would recede.

The fact that they refuse to allow the OS pilots on the list proves they're up to something.

And lots of people think the moon landings were faked, doesn't make them correct, does it. BA want to do this because they want to make us work for less money. End of story.

nice one Chrisbl.

If there is a strike, let's hope that it is long term, none of this 48 hour stuff (that only hurts the passengers).

While BA is shutdown for weeks on end, lets get some decent competition in. I can just imagine Ryanair's 737s with their new logo BYE BYE BA. Richard's Virgins must be loving every moment of this (more work for them).

I am not management, I don't care which side is in the wrong. All I do know is that a strike will end in tears for the staff in the long run.

Personally I would hate to see the National Carrier go to the wall. I have always enjoyed flying BA and am sometimes lucky enough to fly Club which is about the best business seat out of Heathrow.

I don't know any pilots but the cabin crew I've had on my flights have been fantastic - and I wouldn't wish loss of job on ANYONE!

Let's hope a resolution can be found before it's too late.

Everyone has the right to strike - I would defend that to my dying day. All I would say is that you have to think about the longer term consequences - and there ARE always consequences some of which sadly cannot be forseen

Good luck to all those fighting for what they want - please remember to be kind to your families and don't take out your frustrations on them (as I did on mine many years ago)

SCQ you are like a stuck record. BA pilots have been benchmarked as amongst the most productive in the world. You clearly do not know your subject, alternatively you know exactly what you are doing and are happy to peddle lies on this forum.

Now, that is 'management speak' if ever I heard it :)

just shows that the pilots and the managers are not as far apart as they think, and a mutually satisfactory resolution may be just around the corner. :}

I'd also be less inclined to strike if I'd got the Singapore Airlines profit share last year....6 months salary I believe......and didn't they make less money than BA?

It's pretty predictable that every 6-12 months one group or another in BA threatens strike action. Last time it was the cabin crew, now its the pilots.

The arrogance that goes hand in hand with the militant, outdated, and scargilesque belief that walking out somehow achieves any form of victory is quite overwhelming.

I was a BA gold card member - I suspect to most of the vocal minority of pilots in this current dispute that means I was just an irritant who got spoken about in the galley for ordering a second glass of wine with my meal. However, to the company that employs you it meant I and my company spent many thousands of pounds contributing to your profits.

the last time a BA group threatened strike action I made a new arrangement with my travel department and a new deal with myself - the deal meant I would only ever travel with BA as a last resort. It hasn't happened yet. i have become an extremely happy and loyal customer of Lufthansa and regularly make the short trip to Germany to connect further afield in the name of avoiding the risk that flying with BA poses.

I am ashamed to look at BA and to consider what has happened - you have some of the best working conditions of any airline and still you threaten for more. You have lost me and countless others like me. I am not throwing my toys out of the pram, just stating a fact. You need to grow up, focus on flying planes, and stop p*****g off your customers with pathetic and indefensible threats.

I suspect this note will just be greeted with a torrent of abuse for having the audacity to challenge the greater wisdom within the flying ranks...please, feel free, because maybe when you have driven enough good and honest custom away, you will realise there is nobody sitting the seats on your aircraft who actually cares any more.

Please wake up, remember why you joined the national carrier, look at the oil price, think of the shareholders, and maybe have half a thought about your pension should the worst actually happen and you put yourselves out of business...I guess that will just be someone elses fault.

Good luck.

Whilst on strike ...why not take a 'crash' course in Chinese? i guess we will all be working for them in the not too distant future.deep joy....tin hat on for laughter and incoming!

ps:me no joking.

it is such a sad indicment of this country that a company can only be deemed succesful by how much profit it makes and not by how it treats its workforce, a pity that a few more people didnt stand up for what they believed in ,this country as a whole might be better off. Thebaxfactor is the sort of guy that we have running companies in this country .

It's pretty predictable to get rants like yours. If you are an ex-customer, why are you remotely interested?

PS we are not "asking for more" - if you took the trouble to actually understand the issue before jumping in here with both feet you will see why you are being flamed.

Bravo to BALPA,

It's about time someone stuck it to the incompetent chimps that masquerade as BA senior "managers".

I'm travelling from London on BA in Mid-March and hope it coincides with the strike, as I'd happily man the picket line with the pilots. Having been a TU rep and having to deal with these idiots, I can understand how the senior BALPA reps are banging their heads against a brick wall.

I'm sure anyone who is anti this strike is either;

a) BA management

or

b) has never had to cope with the sheer arrogance, belligerence and sub-human intelligence that constitute BA mangement.

Good Luck and God Speed Gentlemen

Ex-BA and completely shafted in the regions by them.

I used to think that if more people stood up for their rights companies would have to think twice about employment terms and conditions etc. I believed it was that simple! Unfortunately the 70s showed us that people who took this route (striking) won small victories but eventually lost the war to the global market place - steel, ,mining and coal. Less trouble with labour relations and lower costs.

I don't like it anymore than anyone else but the reality is that for everyone here who wants to see better prospects, bonuses, share options, job security for life etc etc - there are literally thousands of others both in this country and around the world who are only too happy to do the job without any of the above guarantees and perks.

If anything we are seeing it happen all over again in the service industry - outsourcing technology jobs, call centres and manufacturing all oversees.

In my own job (Technology project work for banking) I am surrounded by people of virtually every nationality who are all keen and happy just to be working.

The sad fact is that the pilots may on this occasion force BA's hand but make no mistake, as I learned from bitter experience, payback will come.

Companies DO NOT care about people - once you disabuse yourself of this ideal you can start to focus on security for you and your family. Its pretty much all you can do.

Well thanks for the pep talk but nobody in BA has laboured under the notion that BA gives two hoots for us. Security for me and my family is what this whole dispute is about. Furthermore whilst it's easy to outsource IT jobs it's rather more difficult with flying. There aren't enough pilots in India. Or China. Or Australia. Or the Middle East. Where are all these people willing to do my job for peanuts?

For those who would actually like to understand the issues, take a good look at.. www.baplane.bapilot.org