Ryanair and BALPA/IALPA
 

It must surely never be the intention of a reasonable employer to censure free debate amongst its employees, of terms, conditions and potential union representation. Therefore, this thread WILL continue along those lines and those lines alone.

This post is to advise readers of the current position of PPRuNe with regard to the temporarily withdrawn thread regarding Ryanair, as well as opening a channel for debate to be carried out under specific conditions.

Firstly, the removed thread is still under review by PPRuNe and it remains our intention to return it to the public domain once it has been ensured that anything which leaves PPRuNe open to legal action has been removed or edited. Unfortunately, due to personal circumstances, I have little access to the Internet at the moment and I am only able to view the thread, and assess it, on an opportunity basis. Please be assured that it will return, and will in all probability be merged with this and other threads to ensure that the full story about Ryanair and BALPA/IALPA, as well as the interface with PPRuNe, becomes known.

You may use this thread to continue the debate and the flow of information about these issues. The following guidelines however, MUST be adhered to when making a post.

1. Please make sure that posts stick only to the issues detailed below.
2. Do not engage in immature rants or point scoring. Certainly, do not lower yourself to imitating the behaviour of anyone that disagrees with you or is from the opposite camp.
3. Post in a constructive, calm, and considered manner. There is no need for partisan, colourful, and abusive language to make your point. Let your reasoned arguments make your point for you, not your emotion.
4. Please keep your posts to factual information. For example, it would be appropriate to discuss letters which staff have received which might be construed as bullying or harassment, the perceived erosion of terms and conditions, the tactics and methods being used by Ryanair or indeed BALPA/IALPA, differing contracts for different pilot groups, and planned fleet changes. This list is not exhaustive, but indicates things that are probably solid knowledge to those involved and are worthy of a reasoned debate and exchange of information and views.
5. Do not make personal accusations, particularly involving the private lives of any of the players. See point 3 for tips on how to make your argument.
6. If engaging in discussion about an airline's safety record, then please ensure that it involves only known and published incidents. Speculation or interpolation is not only possibly painting an untrue picture, it can also be damaging to the airline and its reputation. Most of important of all, it can be distressing to the crews, who will always be striving to do their jobs in the safest manner possible. Remember that the first person to arrive at the scene of an air accident will always be the pilots! Self-preservation makes a safe operation a very high priority for anyone flying.

Whilst PPRuNe is, after all, only a "collection of anonymous scribbles on a toilet wall," and thus in all probability worthless and a waste of time (according to the CEO of a Low Cost Irish airline), it is interesting that people in this industry do occasionally see it as a threat and will take steps to try and stifle debate where possible. By sticking to the guidance given above, PPRuNe hopes that we will not provide anyone with a legal reason to prevent the issues being discussed. Please bear this in mind and note that any post not complying with our advice will be subject to immediate removal without recourse to an explanation. Anything we think or feel may put PPRuNe under legal threat, we reserve the right to remove at our sole behest.

PPRuNe appreciates your co-operation, as well as your literary contributions, to help make this industry a strong and healthy one no matter what the hardships that are placed upon it and those who work in it. Ryanair management will no doubt agree with the right of their workers to free association, which we are facilitating with the caveats previously mentioned.

On a final note, and I haven't seen this published anywhere else yet, it has been rumoured that Ryanair have finalised a deal with a US company to take all their -200 series B737's starting with immediate effect. The last aircraft to leave the fleet are supposed to be the Dublin based aircraft and it is expected that they will be gone by May 2005. How this information will affect those long standing pilots based in Dublin is anyone's guess but with the alleged threat of no conversions to the -800 unless they ditch the idea of unionisation, may well put extra pressure on them.

Hold the Line!
 

I would like to pay tribute to Danny and his team for their efforts. It cannot be pleasant to have been on the receiving end of this. However simple such matters may appear to some of us, the reality is that this kind of action is enough to give any wise person pause for careful thought. That, of course, is its intention – to censor and frighten, and in so doing to demonstrate to the faint-hearted the nature of power.

I would also like to take this opportunity to remind everybody that what has happened is typical of the kind of organisational behaviour described and anticipated in the – now missing – thread (which had around 118,000 hits when it disappeared).

The seriousness of the issues which face everybody was decisively underlined by these developments.

Regrettably this will not be the last such action. What has happened demonstrates two things conclusively; firstly, the seriousness of the challenge now facing ALL pilots and, secondly, the risks that are involved for a particular group of pilots. For that group, namely the Ryanair pilots, there are risks associated with both action AND inaction. They are all going to have to decide what they want to do.

However, has it crossed anyone’s mind yet that this little event may well be a gift? A gift in that it demonstrates for slow learners the very behaviour that causes so many problems for Ryanair staff, and a gift in that it clarifies for everyone the stakes and importance of the decisions and actions to be taken by Ryanair pilots in the weeks to come. It also tells us that somebody is running scared of the evident rebellion.

Expect more threats, but ...

Never was a challenge so clear.

Courage and steadfastness.

Join and deny.

Hold the Line!




As a contribution to the factual side of this matter, here is the well known quote from a Ryanair memo issued in Stansted this summer:

This outlines the official Ryanair position, which has been repeated on many occasions by different company representatives. However ... can anyone provide information, etc. that suggests a very different orientation by Ryanair. (For example, the memo to Dublin pilots?).

If you stand up to a bully now he is unlikely to threaten you in the future.

If you give in now then he knows what to do with you next time.

As one who voted with his feet may I comment BALP/IALPA in helping everybody in RYR. It was a great company to work for and a great start in the Jet market for me pity that it was not a good company to stay with in the long term . :{

It is a pity that Danny has to go through all this hassle.

Thanks Danny the fact that RYR sees Pprune as a threat is a great compliment to the power of Pprune! :ok:

Just want to say good luck to all Ryanair pilots seeking help under the ALPA. I´ve learned the hard way what might happen when you choose to work without any union protection.

The later 3-4 years I am supporting my union guys because no one else will ever, ever be interested in supporting me.

Again, good luck - I will be supporting you guys wherever and whenever I got the opportunity.

Sincerely.

Well Done Danny!
 

Danny, and ofcourse the towers at PPRune,

Youre recent action in re-instating a forum in which to discuss issues at RYR will be doubtlessly seen as welcome relief amongst RYR staff.

Surely with the threat of censorship, more people will find it in themselves to post without fear. I refer to ATSE's statement of Ryanair's official position...So we should therefore not be worried about whom we join or whom we speak to.

Everyone, please follow Danny's guidelines...two can play at their game.


Regarding the Dublin pilots with the unconfirmed rumours about the removal of the 200 fleet, it would seem plausable that MOL could be planning to retrench most of the more senior pilots whose vote this coming October seems obvious, and replace them with new pilots who would feel detached from this decision, therefore voting against recognition or not voting at all.

Using the 200 to 800 conversion as an excuse would in this case be an excellent means of doing the above said.


Again, this is my own personal speculation, and is not based on any facts or rumours. But it seems somewhat clear if you put one and one together.

Perhaps the more appropriate form of action for the pilot body to take is to join BALPA or IALPA now.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there an automatic vote which is passed with immediate effect once over 75% of the pilot body become associated?

Clarification on this query would be greatly appreciated, as would any comment on the above stated theory.

Removing the -200's from the fleet with immediate effect could also be a wind up. I wouldn't put anything past the MOL.

It is time to restart this thread. the old one was far too long

Thank you unnamed ceo of unnamed Irish airline

I am amazed by the lack of new post

KEEP THE FAITH

rumours from up top
 

Theres another thread, "Ryanair, more free publicity", where Sergeblanco has recently posted an interesting new rumour - again rumour alone and with anything on this forum who knows their origins...

Anyone who knows dub will tell you that the A pier which fr use is only capable of holding 5 800's at one time(stands 8,9,10,13 and either 19 or 20). If its true will this mean a big cutback on dub flights

I missed the beginnings of this fight but a couple of points that bear out for ALL union fights.

Whether or not you like Ryan Air, it is the duty of all pilots to support THEIR pilots, and its the duty of all crews to support their crews.. If you feel that they are a cancer on the industry, operate to fast or whatever other gripes you may have about them, the ONLY way the anything can be changed anything is via a strong union.

If you feel that Ryanair may be hurting your airline, supporting the PILOTS of Ryanair will help to level the playing field. (Upward pressure in one groups compensation always has a similar effect across the industry, just as downward compensation pressures have a like effect across the industry, just witness the current race to the bottom amongs the US majors in pay)

So no matter what Anyone thinks, the pilots and crews and employees of RYANAIR need to be supported and assisted in doing anything that can improve their terms.

If you aren'[t supporting the pilots of Ryanair then you either don't know which side your bread is really buttered on, or you aint an airline employee (you could of course be management, but generally those are a worthless lot anyway).

If there is union busting activity going on at RYanair, it needs to be trumpted far and wide, loud and clear and any pressure available needs to be brought to bear. If you happen to be pumping fuel on a Ryan air jet, Relax, step out for a fag, take your time. Pump that gas a little slower. Cleaning the plane? Make sure its very clean, infact you better go over it twice. Are you a contract ramp rat marshalling the plane in, Make sure the ramp is clear. Infact, hold that jet a sec, you better check for FOD... You can never be too safe.

Cheers
Wino

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We have no objection to any Ryanair pilot joining BALPA, the Taliban, the Monster Raving Loonies or indeed the Moonies. Each individual is perfectly free to join whatever organization he/she so chooses."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


But if they dare even consider it they can forget about any chance of promotion or base transfers!

What does European law on Employment or on Human Rights have to say about this? It cannot possibly be legal.

Danny,

1. Good luck.

2. Practically the first rule of bullying is, take your victim somewhere private to do the bullying. Don't do it in front of everyone. The bully who discovers that everyone is in fact watching is likely to desist.

I can only surmise from your post that some legal bullying of pprune is underway, from a quarter which I'm sure we can all guess at.

With point 2. above in mind, I humbly suggest and submit that any and all correspondance relating to this matter should be posted publically to this thread immediately.

Like vampires, bullys tend to shrivel when exposed to glaring light.

Nil Carborundum.

R1

Chickenscanfly:

Under UK employment law, Union recognition is possible when 50% plus one, of that group of workers join the Union .

The 75% figure may relate to the percentage of workers the Union would like to see as members before the recognition process is moved forward.

Southwest worked well with Union involvment. It can work if both parties take a mature approach to the "partnership".

Simple!

Drop the "idea" of I/BALPA untill June 2005 if the above is true, it's not that far away.

The article in the Travel section of the Sunday Times was not a glowing indicment of FR and proves that not all publicity is good and how far the majors have fought back. For about £1 extra you could fly to Milan on BA with 23kg of baggage from an airport which is much easier to get to to an airport much closer and get fed and watered on the way.

As opossed to flying from a remote airport which cost alot more to get to for most of the cathcment are of London to an airport 35kms away meaning an even more expensive journey into town plus around £15 for two sandwiches and a drink for a couple on holiday.

Years ago i remember seeing a programme on the B777 with Mullally talking to some of the workers in the canteen. He was chating about United airlines buying the 777 and the CEO being interested in the Price of the aircraft and not the Cost. He is not interested in how much it cost Boeing but only in what price he will pay.

More and more passengers are weighing up the total expenditure for a low cost flight and certainly in my experience it costs more to go low cost. When the SLF start adding up the extras maybe they might start thinking that "Ummm yes nice cheap flight but i've had to pay more than the cost of the flight for excess baggage or such like". The down side to this is that at some stage people are going to go back to the majors and the LCC boys will suffer and consequently so will jobs.

I have the greatest respect for the FR pilots because you work in a pressure cooker that most could not and though i hate unions i firmly believe you should join one as i have because this industry is up ****e creek without a paddle and we need some protection from predetary management who only believe in share price and therefore their share options.

Is it time for directors to be paid a wage based upon the profit of the company rather than what the city believes the company is worth and share the profits along with the workers.

That bloody nose that a certain CEO has taken may turn into a 10 second count but they cant see that even the best pugilists know to stay down when beat or at least throw the towel in and be big enough to admit defeat.

Stand your ground lads but continue with the dignity that so far you have displayed as opposed to others in some quarters.

Good luck

Well, that's why we have unions so why do you hate them...?? :confused:

IALPA/BALPA
 

Looks like they've reached the Rubicon at FR.

Good luck, you and your families have my full support.

To those who feel they are damned if they do, might I suggest you are doomed if you don't. You have no choice with that man.

Wonder if MOL will enjoy this:

http://www.ryan-be-fair.org/

Supposed to open for business tomorrow.

R1

Some more details on that web site from the BBC here. Seems whatever anti Union actions Ryanair is trying it is having the opposite effect to what they hoped.

Dear All,

I was employed by Ryanair in the 1980’s when SIPTU tried a similar method to get staff to join the union They placed flyers in staff files encouraging them to join the union as this would be a solution to all their problems. This generated a large amount of discussion amongst the staff however it was widely believed that this tactic was more to protect the working conditions of staff in the national airline than a concern over the working conditions in Ryanair. Now as an outside observer I wonder if similar tactics are behind the current campaign. Are trade organisations more concerned with upholding working practices in other airlines than their concern about an individual airline? Is the industry really going to benefit from this concerted campaign?

On this forum there appears to be a belief that the SLF do not know the full impact of choosing an LCC when they book their flight. This is a dangerous misconception. When I book a flight I look at all the options as do most of the people I know. Price, destination, baggage allowance, in-flight service, safety all comes in to play then my decision is made. All this is done from the comfort of my home through the Internet.

The staff in Ryanair and all airlines will make their decision based on personal circumstances not perceived working conditions and comments made by people who have never worked in their company. Many of my previous colleagues have gone on to have very successful careers both within Ryanair and more in other companies.

If this is a global fight to protect the conditions of all airline personnel then declare this as the objective. Do not treat your customers with contempt and believe that they do not make an informed choice when booking a flight. There may come a time when conditions imposed by an airline are unattractive that SLF will not use them. So far I do not believe that this watershed has been reached although it may be coming close.

Good luck to all, safe flying and my we the SLF of this world continue to have the ability to choose the carrier, type of service and destination that has opened up the world of travel.

good point
 

nighthopper,a few good points there.but as someone who now works in fr,we have now no choice left to us but to join and strive for union recognition,the reasons.

when we retire,we have no pension plan - what to live on then?

We will have no loss of licence.well you can say go get it somewhere else.it was part of our working agreement.

we pay for our uniforms - not my choice to wear the uniform,i would prefer slacks and a shirt,so why pay for it.

we pay for our transport to and from the sim. and accomodation while there.

we can be dismissed at the drop of a pin.

we cannot negotiate anything or even complain if hard done by.

we are threatened with paying for our sim recurrency,twice a year when the state requires but one check a year.

we pay for our own medical checks and do them on our day off.

all other conditions are gradually being eroded.


why do we do this to fund the low fares that people like your good self enjoy,might be a little unfair.i have no problem with cheap flights but not at the expense of my family.
should you have an alternative to the union,i am all ears.

There's an interesting article in today's Guardian.

That'd be this Guardian article.

Looks like the struggle are really taking off:

http://www.ryan-be-fair.org/

MOL often compares his airline to the original LCC, Southwest.

It may surpirise some to learn that Southwest is THE MOST UNIONISED airline in the US.

MOL will waste precious millions attempting to subtly deny the opportunity for his pilots to unionise.

Bullies only rule through fear. Once the fear is gone, so will he be.

THIS, IMO, is why he's so terrified of the FR pilots.

If you don't hang together you will surely be hung seperately (as a famous founding father once said).

dd

southwest
 

the comparison between ryanair and southwest is just that they are both lcc's.thats where it ends.

to quote dave o'brien from our recent management briefing sessions,"we are nothing like southwest,i have been over there on a few occasions and they are typical looney americans,having ticker tape parties through the office and hugging each other".

Edited in line with the above guidelines. Admin.

I wonder if anyone from Southwest has visited Ryanair to see how they have managed to achieve lower break even load factors and higher operating ratios? Maybe through using larger aircraft and with denser seating with less spent on selling tickets and more revenue through ancillary services? Mind you I'm not sure if M O'L's customer service ideas would go down well in the US!

on MOL...
 

customers would have sued MOL in the US ages ago...

I like how DOB called the southwest people raving looney americans...

sure, like in Dublin we tend to keep things to a hate-hate relationship, and feel this breeds better employee satisfaction and performance...

atl;east ahtas how things appear to come over at the receiving end of the stick.

With the ITF chasing up MOL's heels, one wonders how much longer he's going to last before he cracks and takes the next step

Not sure how the low fares airline can call itself that... !
I've just picked a sample flight from Ireland to Spain for 4 adults.
three carriers - 1 European 2 Irish.
1 Irish fare = €735 all in
1 low cost Irish fare = €1223 all in :{
1 European Major = £ 684 GBP all in

So who's kidding who ??? :rolleyes:

Pull together people you're being ripped off along with 'unassuming' SLF and piggy in th middle is laughing all the way to th bank !:uhoh:

thats just the point
 

TCS

Management in an airport will always try to cut back on things...the difference is in RYR if you dont like, leave.

someone got fired because they decided to question the new policy on no crew water onboard airplanes? too bad...take it or leave it.

If anyone mentions even considering blowing thigns at RYR out into the open they are shown the door. The company is know to even retrench cabin crew once they reach a certain service time because they then start costing the company too much.

this is not rumour. It is well known in the company as a fact.

Grant yourself lucky that in SWA you have the choice of going to union if you wish

I have followed this and the other anti-Ryanair threads with great interest and what I cannot work out is, if things are so bad why are all these posters still working with Ryanair?.

I would have thought that if things are so bad you would have left and went to one of the competing airlines offering better terms and conditions and working life that seems so elusive.

Would in not be best to leave and get the better terms and condition you desire than stay when you are obviously so unhappy?.

be a man
 

why not stay here and fight for the terms and conditions here.make a difference and not keep running.i think as pilots we have run away from the hard choices for too long now just to feather our own nests.this is the reason that we are in this mess now.do you think that all the other airlines are going to sit back and let fr be the only ones to ride roughshod over their staff.your turn will come in time if we don't fight your battle for you now.DO NOT BE UNDER ANY ILLUSIONS RUNWAY 31.YOUR DAY MAY COME AND IT IS NOT PLEASANTthis is not just about ryanair and balpa knows this,like we do here in the firing(pun) line.

Don't forget the important issue of training bonds which force you to pay a large amount of money if you decide to go and work for a better employer. There are far fewer market forces in this industry than most people think. Some of which are positively ANTI-competitive.

sergeblanco is spot on... Although other airlines may be construed by union forces at the moment, it may come to pass that they will soon realise that should ryanair be able to pull this off, they too can lower the bar...

if all the airlines offer the same low pay and conditions package where else can we possibly run to...

but it is definately not a bad question runway...and there are some guys who are packing up and jumping ship...

market forces are definately not as quick in aviation as people think they are with regards to staff...there are pilots in the market jumping for a job, there are others gladly looking around, but no one will take the risk of leaving a company in the hope of getting hired elsewhere. Seniority plays a big factor, as does the rate of hour building, possible future command opportunities...

and why should we be forced out by a bully from an airline we all effectively built for him. Sure he steered the ship, but we rowed the damned thing didnt we?

Greetings all.

I would like to make some points to all participating actively, and passively. We at Ryanair are at no illusion where we are. We have not just woken up to the success of the airline and desire more money, or more benefits. We all know we work for Ryanair, and not South West or BA, or Virgin, or any other airline in the world. Each has its unique issues and pros and cons.
We all were happy to join Ryanair, and work hard for a living ( 4sectors in and out of London, daily, training cadets is very tiring when you have to give a quality product to the customers, do a 25 minute turnaround, and train to the highest standard the new guys.) What we achieve at work goes above and beyond what MOL and his team gives us tools and policy for. I am not going to argue about underpayment, or not being valued enough, etc.
We pilots at Ryanair are fighting to keep our present terms and conditions from erroding. Everything around the world is becoming more expensive, and our salaries are going the wrong way.
I do not want to leave Ryanair because management are unable to find long term solutions to their cost model, and are destroying our tcs because that is all they can do. When the times were tough many years ago, we all agreed to a paycut when management told us we might have to see some of our colleagues go, but that was when we were fighting for survival.
Ryanair makes millions of Euros in cash every year, 250 millions last year, and about the same this year, and this is after tax. We have over 1 billion in cash which is airline wealth and not cash in hand for day to day operations. No one in Management has given anything back from their high salaries, or their high bonuses to say, look guys we are participating in a difficult period of cutbacks, and here is what we are also giving back. Ryanair does not need to cut back costs further to compete, they are already extremely low. They need to become more service oriented. In the mean time they are squeezing everyone out of the market, with artificial cost reductions, taking away things from its employees which are not priviledges, or benefits but the mere necesities. Having water onboard an aircraft is not an unnecessary cost, it is a legal requirement. Taking away our loss of licence, is not a benefit, it is a necessity. Our job has a six month validation period, and some of us have needed this money to help us fund something to do in between jobs when we have lost our licence thus our income generating capability.
We do not want to leave the airline just because the bosses cannot make their ambitious plans work. They are the ones buying 300 airplanes like as if they were coffee table. If their plans had worked, they would be billioners, but we would still be getting the same salaries. It was their choice to be where they are, so if they cannot make things work, and fill up airplanes with high yield pax, then they should reap the consequences of their missmanagement and close the door on the way out.

When someone resigns from RYR they are forced to sign a declaration stating they will never attempt to sue RYR for anything after leaving. If it's not signed, the chances are, you won't get paid..... bully tactics ???

Runway31,

Chickens and serge are spot on. There is no point in jumping out of the frying pan, and into the fire.

The appalling antics of MOL are being imitaded daily by his competitors, and it's only the union which will prevent the whole industry (LCCs) ending up the same.

It's not just FR that's at stake here. Go for it.

Just finished reading the "Ryanair" book by the Irish Times journalist. In it our CEO is quoted as saying that safety is the only thing that keeps him awake at night. Well , at Buzz Stansted what keeps a lot of us awake at night, is wondering whether we will have a job or not after you close us down !

Since February 2003, the Buzz pilots have faced over 18 months of threats and uncertainty over their future, Many times recently I have gone to work on an early after a sleepless night worrying about my family's financial security etc , coupled on occasions with the discovery in my pigeon hole of yet another letter from a certain manager at Stansted, containing material that is upsetting to say the least !


At present there are a lot of tired, unhappy and stressed pilots like myself at Buzz Stansted (and I suspect Ryanair too) When we joined, we were all put on one year's probation, during which time we could be given one week's notice. We have been told that "if" we are sucessful with our applications to Ryanair (after paying our £50 of course !) we will be on one year's probation again ! Thats two years of living under the threat of bieng shown the door with only a week's notice, additional stress we could all do without I'm sure.


PS

Two Captains at Buzz Stansted have had minor heart attacks in the last 12 months, *this is a fact *. Fortunately they have both made full recoveries and were not at work at the time.


Sweet dreams .......................

2infinity, you're absolutely right. Squeezing and squeezing will only bring defeat to MOL and his band just because there's a point below which you fight for your life and your family's life and you want the other side to pass away before you do yourself.
There used to be a time, in some -European-countries, when the richest who used to make even more and more money on their servants' backs got their heads chopped off for that. In public. This is to show, in general terms, how a tense situation cannot naturally go on for ever.

For a situation to go on for ever, you need equilibrium, win-win and desire from all to keep going.

That is absolutely not the case at FR at the moment !!!

FRying....
 

Its interesting...

As is common belief, MOL thinks he can pull these antics and get away with it, anticipating scores of pilots to leave only to be replaced with cheaper, less experienced crew who are willing to take the brunt, in some cases perhaps because they can't get in anywhere else.

but this cant keep going on forever...the point of scarcity is near, and soon the company will find themselves, as will many others, with expansion plans unable to be met by the lack in supply of crews.

the market will show recessive growth again, and those companies with the most eggs in their baskets will falter.

its not that hard to forsee

if anyone in the airline business is reading this (and most of us can already guess one individual), wake up and use the brains that got you your job...

stability in this market is of utmost importance...lack of it leads to iincidents and, heavan forbid, accidents...

stability includes proper workforce conditions...