Upset on AA Flight
Join Date: May 2003
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Now west coast the way to spot PPLs over ATPL is we know how to use that steering wheel type thing/stick type thing in front of us 
No scratching our @rses and reading a book when we fly our aircraft! although you're probably a better computer programmer than i am!
No scratching our @rses and reading a book when we fly our aircraft! although you're probably a better computer programmer than i am!
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"Having said that, it is somewhat rare that the 'skygods' show themselves to the great unwashed these days..."
As a general rule nowadays, I require plebe passengers to go through one of my three intermediaries. If they pass the test (adequate dress, hygiene, social status, etc.), I will consider meeting with them if their case is worthy of my highly valuable time. (NOT!):0
I try to get in back and say good-bye to as many PAX as possible. (Unless of course I am running for more "brain-food." SAFETY FIRST!!!)
PT
As a general rule nowadays, I require plebe passengers to go through one of my three intermediaries. If they pass the test (adequate dress, hygiene, social status, etc.), I will consider meeting with them if their case is worthy of my highly valuable time. (NOT!):0
I try to get in back and say good-bye to as many PAX as possible. (Unless of course I am running for more "brain-food." SAFETY FIRST!!!)
PT
Invariably when I've flown BA, one of the Sky Gods from the pointy end has stood by the front door with the Purser to say goodbye to pax. It's a simple but nice gesture.
Of course thy're probably just checking we're not taking the seats with us!
Of course thy're probably just checking we're not taking the seats with us!
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As a general rule nowadays, I require plebe passengers to go through one of my three intermediaries. If they pass the test (adequate dress, hygiene, social status, etc.), I will consider meeting with them if their case is worthy of my highly valuable time
bat fastard
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As a general rule nowadays, I require plebe passengers to go through one of my three intermediaries. If they pass the test (adequate dress, hygiene, social status, etc.), I will consider meeting with them if their case is worthy of my highly valuable time
The poor guy just wanted to get home to his £14M estate and gorgeous supermodel wife 
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Planetruth beamed
"From early on, we have established a historical reputation for doing the "near impossible" as viewed through the eyes of the controller within the context of what other airlines offer to do."
You guys must truely be legends in your own minds. If only the rest of us could be such sky studs.
"From early on, we have established a historical reputation for doing the "near impossible" as viewed through the eyes of the controller within the context of what other airlines offer to do."
You guys must truely be legends in your own minds. If only the rest of us could be such sky studs.
Thread Starter
Danny, thanks for the support.
WideBodiedEng, as I have said before I have just quoted what my friend said to me. I have refrained from adding any interpretation or personal comments, other than there may be significant errors in the data posted (see my first reply).
Wino, thank you - that was the sort of reply that I was looking for. If I can confirm for my friend that there was not an incident despite his perceptions of this manoeuvre, then I can help to restore some of the confidence that he has lost in the safety of air travel. It is difficult for me to contact him openly as he is afraid to tell his wife of what happened as he knows that it will worry her!
I am still trying to find out the exact flight number so that we can be more precise. I am not trying to be alarmist over this, just to establish facts for a frightened customer.
WideBodiedEng, as I have said before I have just quoted what my friend said to me. I have refrained from adding any interpretation or personal comments, other than there may be significant errors in the data posted (see my first reply).
Wino, thank you - that was the sort of reply that I was looking for. If I can confirm for my friend that there was not an incident despite his perceptions of this manoeuvre, then I can help to restore some of the confidence that he has lost in the safety of air travel. It is difficult for me to contact him openly as he is afraid to tell his wife of what happened as he knows that it will worry her!
I am still trying to find out the exact flight number so that we can be more precise. I am not trying to be alarmist over this, just to establish facts for a frightened customer.
747FOCAL: Do your company criteria for a stable approach include no more than 1,000 fpm sink rate when withing 1,000' of the touchdown zone, etc? Or do the normal aproaches at San Jose violate those limitations?
Final, 3 green
A technical question, a comment, etc done for your own ediifcation is fine. Just as acceptable is as you say, a thanks and your gone is great. What I find annoying is a PPL who craves acknowledgement of being a pilot. Most of the time its no biggie, at times its a pain. "Why did we land downwind on such a short runway" We didn't but it was said as everyone was working their way off the plane at a level loud enough(intentional) to be heard by other pax. At other times its worse. Company provided an exampe of this not long ago in one of our training builletins. An aircraft was IMC being vectored into LAX. They got rocked a bit by a heavy ahead. Aircraft rolled some, nothing dramatic. A PPL on board took exception to the explanation on the ground from the Captain. He, a PPL without an instrument rating didn't believe the crew were following wake turbulence avoidance procedures he had been taught in his training. He wrote a scathing letter about how dangerous a situation he was put in by the crew not following procedures. He also took umbrage with the PA after landing because the Captain was lying about doing every thing properly and still encountering wake.(which is exactly correct) It was presented to us not because the crew did anything wrong but to underline differences in perception based on experience.
A technical question, a comment, etc done for your own ediifcation is fine. Just as acceptable is as you say, a thanks and your gone is great. What I find annoying is a PPL who craves acknowledgement of being a pilot. Most of the time its no biggie, at times its a pain. "Why did we land downwind on such a short runway" We didn't but it was said as everyone was working their way off the plane at a level loud enough(intentional) to be heard by other pax. At other times its worse. Company provided an exampe of this not long ago in one of our training builletins. An aircraft was IMC being vectored into LAX. They got rocked a bit by a heavy ahead. Aircraft rolled some, nothing dramatic. A PPL on board took exception to the explanation on the ground from the Captain. He, a PPL without an instrument rating didn't believe the crew were following wake turbulence avoidance procedures he had been taught in his training. He wrote a scathing letter about how dangerous a situation he was put in by the crew not following procedures. He also took umbrage with the PA after landing because the Captain was lying about doing every thing properly and still encountering wake.(which is exactly correct) It was presented to us not because the crew did anything wrong but to underline differences in perception based on experience.
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West Coast
Sounds as if you are dealing with a few Monday morning quarterbacks, who just happen to hold PPLs
I understand the irritation caused, since I encounter similar people in my job most weeks, when I deliver project management training around the world and there are always 'experts' on the programmes who know more than I do.
My response is to remember that they pay my fees, smile and remember that only I can choose to be upset!
However, the vast majority of folks do not act this way and I suspect that most PPLs don't either, but then neither do the majority of white sharks attack people, it's only the few that do that generate the bad image for the rest.
Sounds as if you are dealing with a few Monday morning quarterbacks, who just happen to hold PPLs
I understand the irritation caused, since I encounter similar people in my job most weeks, when I deliver project management training around the world and there are always 'experts' on the programmes who know more than I do.
My response is to remember that they pay my fees, smile and remember that only I can choose to be upset!
However, the vast majority of folks do not act this way and I suspect that most PPLs don't either, but then neither do the majority of white sharks attack people, it's only the few that do that generate the bad image for the rest.
This sort of behaviour is not confined to PPL’s. I was strapping myself into the rear of a HS748 when the guy behind me asked, in a very loud voice, who the captain was. He then told the FA to inform the captain that he was a nervous passenger and that he didn’t like “things with fans on the front”. It then became clear that he was a BAC111 captain with the same airline.
When the FA asked him to keep his voice down in case he worried the other passengers, he said that they should realise how dangerous propeller driven aeroplanes were.
All through the flight, and especially the landing, he was telling the pilot what to do. I just looked round at him and yawned.
When the FA asked him to keep his voice down in case he worried the other passengers, he said that they should realise how dangerous propeller driven aeroplanes were.
All through the flight, and especially the landing, he was telling the pilot what to do. I just looked round at him and yawned.
Thread Starter
Back to the thread (interesting as the other discussions are), I can confirm that this occurred on flight AA709 on 13 July. My friend agrees that the bank excursions may not have been to 90 deg but that they were excessive compared to what he had ever seen before in a commercial aircraft. He also agrees that the aircraft may not have been at 20,000 ft as it appears that the aircraft was probably turning on to the approach when this happened. However, he and his companions were definitely concerned that the aircraft may crash!
I suspect that the incident was due to some aggressive handling for whatever reason, possibly due to atmospheric disturbance or an ATC input. However, the debate that has ensued has raised some lessons that everyone in the industry might like to consider.
1. An eyewitness's perception may be markedly different from reality due to the nature of visual and acceleration cues that they have received. They are just reporting an event as they perceived it. If they have been unsettled by an occurrence they need to be convinced of the reality so that their mental model can be refined. They then may have a more accurate perception if such an event occurs again.
2. Good use of the PA after an unusual event can allay many fears and uncertainties and restore passenger confidence. There are both humanitarian and commercial reasons to do this.
3. Scepticism of reported incidents such as this is healthy, cynicism is not so useful!
4. Thanks to Wino's reply, my friend is much happier as some of the uncertainties and questions that he had have been answered.
If anyone has any more details of this flight, I would still be interested to hear them.
I suspect that the incident was due to some aggressive handling for whatever reason, possibly due to atmospheric disturbance or an ATC input. However, the debate that has ensued has raised some lessons that everyone in the industry might like to consider.
1. An eyewitness's perception may be markedly different from reality due to the nature of visual and acceleration cues that they have received. They are just reporting an event as they perceived it. If they have been unsettled by an occurrence they need to be convinced of the reality so that their mental model can be refined. They then may have a more accurate perception if such an event occurs again.
2. Good use of the PA after an unusual event can allay many fears and uncertainties and restore passenger confidence. There are both humanitarian and commercial reasons to do this.
3. Scepticism of reported incidents such as this is healthy, cynicism is not so useful!
4. Thanks to Wino's reply, my friend is much happier as some of the uncertainties and questions that he had have been answered.
If anyone has any more details of this flight, I would still be interested to hear them.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
From your friend's account, LOMCEVAK, it might be indicative of an aircraft carrying out an S-turn (but banking >30 degrees to stay on the LLZ), with a steep nose down attitude to dive off height, then levelling off and chucking the gear out to slow down to flap extend speed, before catching the glide slope.
But just a guess.
Nothing wrong with going around these days is there?
But just a guess.
Nothing wrong with going around these days is there?
Union Goon
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Lomecevak,
I had to wait to answer this point till I went to work and asked an MD80 pilot about their EGPWS (enhanced Ground Proximity Warning sysyem) just to make sure I was right.
If your friend was close enough to the front of the cabin to hear cockpit crew talking (Put the gear down NOW!) he would have certainly heard the EGPWS saying "Bank Angle" in a VERY loud robotic voice every time bank exceded 60 degrees or so. Also, the terrain warning would have activated with high sink rates below 2000 feet. (The enhanced portion would not have the "Whoop Whoop" it would just say "pull up" or "terrain", if you ignored it and got into the old style envelope then you would get the "Whoop whoop" before the message) anytime the path of the aircraft gets within 60 seconds of the ground. Its suprisingly easy to get that portion of the EGPWS. 2000 feet a minute 2000 feet above the ground (not that high a sink rate) can get it in the right circumstances. Also don't forget the "sink rate" and "glideslope" calls that a severely unstable approach is likely to generate, but those are within the last 1000 feet or so (which is 1.3 minutes long btw)...
But basically anytime the sinkrate (in feet per minute) exceded the altitude of the aircraft he would have heard a LOUD computerized voice saying "pullup" or "terrain".
That being said, a likely scenario was the crew was descending far out on the localizer on the autopilot. Either they encountered the wake of the aircraft in front of them or the aircraft infront of them bent the localizer beam causing a rapid roll reversal as the autopilot tried to fly down a beam experiencing intereference from a preceding aircraft. As soon as that happened the crew would have disconnected the autopilot which will cause a loud non verbal alarm to ring in the cockpit. Furthermore if they were running into wake they might have climbed breifly above the glideslope (not really climbing, just slowing down the rate of descent untill they were a few hundred feet above the glidepath but you get the idea) and then slowed down as much as practical (hence "get the gear down now") to increase seperation with the aircraft infront of them.
When an autopilot attempts to track an interferred with localizer beam it can be quite ugly, though not dangerous. The autopilot has bank limitations that will prevent it from going past 35 degrees or so, but it might get there in a hurry, especially in localizer mode...
Cheers
Wino
I had to wait to answer this point till I went to work and asked an MD80 pilot about their EGPWS (enhanced Ground Proximity Warning sysyem) just to make sure I was right.
If your friend was close enough to the front of the cabin to hear cockpit crew talking (Put the gear down NOW!) he would have certainly heard the EGPWS saying "Bank Angle" in a VERY loud robotic voice every time bank exceded 60 degrees or so. Also, the terrain warning would have activated with high sink rates below 2000 feet. (The enhanced portion would not have the "Whoop Whoop" it would just say "pull up" or "terrain", if you ignored it and got into the old style envelope then you would get the "Whoop whoop" before the message) anytime the path of the aircraft gets within 60 seconds of the ground. Its suprisingly easy to get that portion of the EGPWS. 2000 feet a minute 2000 feet above the ground (not that high a sink rate) can get it in the right circumstances. Also don't forget the "sink rate" and "glideslope" calls that a severely unstable approach is likely to generate, but those are within the last 1000 feet or so (which is 1.3 minutes long btw)...
But basically anytime the sinkrate (in feet per minute) exceded the altitude of the aircraft he would have heard a LOUD computerized voice saying "pullup" or "terrain".
That being said, a likely scenario was the crew was descending far out on the localizer on the autopilot. Either they encountered the wake of the aircraft in front of them or the aircraft infront of them bent the localizer beam causing a rapid roll reversal as the autopilot tried to fly down a beam experiencing intereference from a preceding aircraft. As soon as that happened the crew would have disconnected the autopilot which will cause a loud non verbal alarm to ring in the cockpit. Furthermore if they were running into wake they might have climbed breifly above the glideslope (not really climbing, just slowing down the rate of descent untill they were a few hundred feet above the glidepath but you get the idea) and then slowed down as much as practical (hence "get the gear down now") to increase seperation with the aircraft infront of them.
When an autopilot attempts to track an interferred with localizer beam it can be quite ugly, though not dangerous. The autopilot has bank limitations that will prevent it from going past 35 degrees or so, but it might get there in a hurry, especially in localizer mode...
Cheers
Wino
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I’m sorry Lomecevak but the story keeps changing. It sounds like the cockpit crew did their jobs and got your friend to ABQ safe and sound just like they were paid to do. If the cockpit crew put the aircraft in any unusual attitude then I’m sure the Super 80 Fleet Supervisor has the crews report on his desk and he would be your friends contact. If your friend feels his life was in jeopardy then have your friend contact American Airlines and the FAA to report the incident. He just might have lost his life that day hadn’t been for those two underpaid pros up front. If the crew did save his bacon then your friend should be writing a thank you note to the crew.
http://www.aa.com
http://www.faa.gov
No one has anything to hide when you have 139 paying customers in the back watching your every move.
Wino: The autopilot does not give an oral warning on disconnect except when in the autoland mode then Betty will announce “AUTOPILOT”. Only warning you get when not in autoland is the quite “click” of the magnetic switch going to off and two flashing red lights, one each in front the Captain and the F/O.
http://www.aa.com
http://www.faa.gov
No one has anything to hide when you have 139 paying customers in the back watching your every move.
Wino: The autopilot does not give an oral warning on disconnect except when in the autoland mode then Betty will announce “AUTOPILOT”. Only warning you get when not in autoland is the quite “click” of the magnetic switch going to off and two flashing red lights, one each in front the Captain and the F/O.
Last edited by AAL_Silverbird; 30th Jul 2003 at 03:12.
Swounger
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Well put AAS. I know often as a pax it seems like we are really turning/banking/falling out of the sky when in fact it is just the normal approach to the airport. But if your friend is concerned, he definitely should contact the faa or ntsb, instead of looking to an internet gossip board for information.
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Yes, Lomcevak's for real. Some of his friends are a bit strange, though.... As for airliner landings, allow me to tell you the tale of his first 747 landing sometime! 
As Danny said, back to the subject.......
Scroggs
As for airliner landings, allow me to tell you the tale of his first 747 landing sometime! As Danny said, back to the subject.......
Scroggs
Thread Starter
Thanks, guys. I agree that all of the last few technical suggestions are possible. Interestingly, the report was of audio alarms only. I specifically asked about voice warnings and apparently none were remembered as being heard. Overall this is definitely an interesting example of observation and memory being, perhaps, inconsistent with reality; limitations of homo sapiens I am afraid. It was actually my idea to air this on PPRuNe not my friend's, and curiosity was the only motivation of both of us. No-one wants to start stirring it unnecessarily with AA or the FAA.
Scroggs, how are you? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone! Did you bid for/get the trip that we discussed next month?
Best regards and thanks to all.
L
Scroggs, how are you? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone! Did you bid for/get the trip that we discussed next month?
Best regards and thanks to all.
L
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L - hello, mate. All in jest, you understand (how many oxygen masks was it...?). No, I didn't get the trip - SEP, Sim, linecheck and a gutful of US stuff screwed me. Hope you both have a great time - let me know how it goes. You doing the Xmas Bash?
Apologies to all for hijacking the thread for social purposes!
Apologies to all for hijacking the thread for social purposes!