Brookmans Park & Dovers Poor Wx
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Notts & Derbyshire border
Posts: 465
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brookmans Park & Dovers Poor Wx
Last night loads of storms & CB activity both sides of LHR wreaking havoc.
Around 1730z London ATC not permitting anymore SIDs thru Dover or Brookmans Park due to high level of storm intensity and traffic volumes.
At one stage Epsom SIDs and STARS badly effected by storms.
Between 1730z and 1800z only aircraft heading on a straight track departure from LHR were allowed to depart, i.e. VS011 and BA001 OK. Storm was some 9 miles long at one stage and the cell was half a mile north of the threshold for 27R!
BA442 almost had to return to stand for more fuel as it sat awaiting a new departure track to avoid wx.
Around 1730z London ATC not permitting anymore SIDs thru Dover or Brookmans Park due to high level of storm intensity and traffic volumes.
At one stage Epsom SIDs and STARS badly effected by storms.
Between 1730z and 1800z only aircraft heading on a straight track departure from LHR were allowed to depart, i.e. VS011 and BA001 OK. Storm was some 9 miles long at one stage and the cell was half a mile north of the threshold for 27R!
BA442 almost had to return to stand for more fuel as it sat awaiting a new departure track to avoid wx.
Quite intersting to watch from my location (near Compton VOR), several aircraft weaving around the storm cells around 1630. This must have been the same one progressing east bound. BA 777 made one turn followed quickly by a rapid turn to the south just as the CB above me deposited a large bolt of lightning and heavy sounding thunder clap directly ahead of it's path. BA001 was unaffected. Very co-operative ATC it would seem for wx avoidance tracks.
PPRuNe Bashmeister
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Essex UK
Posts: 277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I played cricket yesterday at a ground 8 miles NW of BPK and the match was interrupted by light rain from about 17.20 for 10 mins (or about the time it took to sup a pint of Greene King IPA from the barrel in the pavilion).
The sky to the south was as black as pitch (geddit?) Seems we had a lucky escape from a drenching and an abandoned match.
The sky to the south was as black as pitch (geddit?) Seems we had a lucky escape from a drenching and an abandoned match.
Quote:
"BA442 almost had to return to stand for more fuel as it sat awaiting a new departure track to avoid wx."
Don't BA captains look at the met picture and/or sky and load extra fuel as a precaution any more? Or is it that safely-earthbound company beancounters do not allow such airmanship decisions these days?
"BA442 almost had to return to stand for more fuel as it sat awaiting a new departure track to avoid wx."
Don't BA captains look at the met picture and/or sky and load extra fuel as a precaution any more? Or is it that safely-earthbound company beancounters do not allow such airmanship decisions these days?
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Posts: 2,131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BEagle
The fact that he didn't have to return to stand means that he DID HAVE enough fuel.
You really should know better than this - it's like subscribing to the journalists panic 'almost crashed' sensationalism whenever an aircraft carries out a go-around.
Of course we look at the weather, but sometimes it can get worse than expected / sit over the airfield longer than usual / etc. In these circumstances you can occasionally get tight on fuel (even after loading some extra).
The fact that he didn't have to return to stand means that he DID HAVE enough fuel.
You really should know better than this - it's like subscribing to the journalists panic 'almost crashed' sensationalism whenever an aircraft carries out a go-around.
Of course we look at the weather, but sometimes it can get worse than expected / sit over the airfield longer than usual / etc. In these circumstances you can occasionally get tight on fuel (even after loading some extra).
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Overseas
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just beat me to the keyboard TB. For goodness sake Beagle - as you well know there could be any number of reasons why he made that (correct) fuel decision - MTOW just being one of them. In any case, would it be such a problem if he did taxi back in for another 1000kg? By my reckoning if 1% of +2hr flights did this the company would still save money.
Sorry - just cheekily doing some fishing, Top B and 52049er!
You have successfully made the point that reputable airline's Aircraft Commanders will load sufficient extra fuel to cater for such conditions! So no shock, horror, "Giant Jet In Near Disaster in Storm! We nearly didn't have enough fuel because it was raining" tales to keep any Daily Chipwrapper 'air correspondents' perusing this thread happy!
You have successfully made the point that reputable airline's Aircraft Commanders will load sufficient extra fuel to cater for such conditions! So no shock, horror, "Giant Jet In Near Disaster in Storm! We nearly didn't have enough fuel because it was raining" tales to keep any Daily Chipwrapper 'air correspondents' perusing this thread happy!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: England
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While we're on the subject - please, please ask us (ATC) first before you make a turn for wx. We try to be as helpful as possible and can nearly always give you the turn. A few aircraft recently have turned without asking and in a busy TMA you're going to end up hitting metal rather than a cloud.
Before the flames - it's only a FEW who turn before asking!
WMD
Before the flames - it's only a FEW who turn before asking!
WMD
Ohcirrej
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: This is the internet FFS.........
Posts: 2,921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with WMD on this one. I'll bust my b*lls to try and give you guys any weather avoiding vector you need, but I have seen several dummy-spits from the pram by TC guys who have had a jet turn for Wx themselves. More than once over the past couple of days I have heard "Where's he off to?". Can become a little frustrating (Although, no where near a frustrating as it is for you guys trying to dodge the bumps or other fluffy nasty things!!!)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Notts & Derbyshire border
Posts: 465
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA442
ref my comment on the BA442 he was sat ages and ages on the holding point(s) for a clearance to get out, the Wx just closed in and got worse. God only knows how much fuel was burnt as the little 319 sat there waiting,waiting,waiting.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WMD / Jerricho...
Most pilots will obviously try and ask before deviating for weather... as you say.
However, one of priciples of flying is:
Aviate Navigate Communicate
or its more "PC" version
Plane Path People!
UK ATC frequencies are the busiest I have met. It may not appear so to you, since you are working at 150%, but it can take a few minutes to get a call in sometimes. This is fairly unique to the UK, and IMHO is the most dangerous part of our ATC system. It is also not uncommon to try and make a call, say 4+ times, and each time get stepped on / not acknowledged.
As a general "rule", I will not take an aircraft into something painting "red" on the radar. If I have failed to get ATC clearance, either because I left it too late, or I could not get a word in, the sorry - it comes down to priorities. It comes down to the probablilites of a problem due to the weather, and red returns could mean loss of the aircraft and occupants, as could (would!) a mid air. And of course, CBs "develop", and what was green 2 minutes ago has just started painting red...
That said, 99% of the time we get in the call, you go out of your way to help (far more so than other ATC agencies), and god knows how you cope with 15 aircraft all wanting to deviate.
Keep up the good work!
NoD
Most pilots will obviously try and ask before deviating for weather... as you say.
However, one of priciples of flying is:
Aviate Navigate Communicate
or its more "PC" version
Plane Path People!
UK ATC frequencies are the busiest I have met. It may not appear so to you, since you are working at 150%, but it can take a few minutes to get a call in sometimes. This is fairly unique to the UK, and IMHO is the most dangerous part of our ATC system. It is also not uncommon to try and make a call, say 4+ times, and each time get stepped on / not acknowledged.
As a general "rule", I will not take an aircraft into something painting "red" on the radar. If I have failed to get ATC clearance, either because I left it too late, or I could not get a word in, the sorry - it comes down to priorities. It comes down to the probablilites of a problem due to the weather, and red returns could mean loss of the aircraft and occupants, as could (would!) a mid air. And of course, CBs "develop", and what was green 2 minutes ago has just started painting red...
That said, 99% of the time we get in the call, you go out of your way to help (far more so than other ATC agencies), and god knows how you cope with 15 aircraft all wanting to deviate.
Keep up the good work!
NoD
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: England
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NoD,
I'm very interested in your reply.
1. I'm thankful that incidents of pilots turning before asking is rare and hopefully less than the 1% you infer.
2. Agree with you that are frequencies in the London TMA (and, of course, enroute) are more often than not too busy. Alas the only ways of fixing that problem is to either :
a) have smaller sectors which means more controllers (which we don't have as we're already understaffed in a big way)
b) Put on some severe flow rates which means more delays for you and the pax. We often put on extra flow rates when there's bad wx as sector complexity at least triples when ac are avoiding clouds. Of course, we've to keep those delays to 1.2mins per flight I believe.
c) Make you stay on the ground until you can at least fly the SID or until the wx has gone.
3. Slightly horrified that you risk both your own aircraft and others in the sky to avoid the "red". Don't get me wrong, I understand the dangers of downdraughts, windsheer, turbulance, icing etc - but you're not the only plane in the sky (unless it's the middle of the night). I had a nasty scare a few years ago when I was controlling three abreast coming up into the BIG stack for EGLL. Without warning the middle a/c turned left across the nose of the a/c to his left. Other pilots were clogging the R/T trying to get their wx avoidance requests in and it was pure luck that I managed to get an "avoiding action" call in to the other a/c.
Just a thought!
WMD
I'm very interested in your reply.
1. I'm thankful that incidents of pilots turning before asking is rare and hopefully less than the 1% you infer.
2. Agree with you that are frequencies in the London TMA (and, of course, enroute) are more often than not too busy. Alas the only ways of fixing that problem is to either :
a) have smaller sectors which means more controllers (which we don't have as we're already understaffed in a big way)
b) Put on some severe flow rates which means more delays for you and the pax. We often put on extra flow rates when there's bad wx as sector complexity at least triples when ac are avoiding clouds. Of course, we've to keep those delays to 1.2mins per flight I believe.
c) Make you stay on the ground until you can at least fly the SID or until the wx has gone.
3. Slightly horrified that you risk both your own aircraft and others in the sky to avoid the "red". Don't get me wrong, I understand the dangers of downdraughts, windsheer, turbulance, icing etc - but you're not the only plane in the sky (unless it's the middle of the night). I had a nasty scare a few years ago when I was controlling three abreast coming up into the BIG stack for EGLL. Without warning the middle a/c turned left across the nose of the a/c to his left. Other pilots were clogging the R/T trying to get their wx avoidance requests in and it was pure luck that I managed to get an "avoiding action" call in to the other a/c.
Just a thought!
WMD
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Hants, UK
Posts: 1,064
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WMD: I fully concur with your request for a call BEFORE turning, but:
Quote
I had a nasty scare a few years ago when I was controlling three abreast coming up into the BIG stack for EGLL. Without warning the middle a/c turned left across the nose of the a/c to his left. Other pilots were clogging the R/T trying to get their wx avoidance requests in and it was pure luck that I managed to get an "avoiding action" call in to the other a/c.
Unquote
displays perhaps a lack of forethought on your part. Given that weather avoidance was already taking place, perhaps you should have considered modifying your technique and not committing yourself to radar headings. Give yourself some vertical separation room to cope with it rather than dropping them all at once. If they have to ladder down in the hold (wherever that may be if there is a storm over the VOR!) that is better than a TCAS RA or worse on the way in!!
Quote
I had a nasty scare a few years ago when I was controlling three abreast coming up into the BIG stack for EGLL. Without warning the middle a/c turned left across the nose of the a/c to his left. Other pilots were clogging the R/T trying to get their wx avoidance requests in and it was pure luck that I managed to get an "avoiding action" call in to the other a/c.
Unquote
displays perhaps a lack of forethought on your part. Given that weather avoidance was already taking place, perhaps you should have considered modifying your technique and not committing yourself to radar headings. Give yourself some vertical separation room to cope with it rather than dropping them all at once. If they have to ladder down in the hold (wherever that may be if there is a storm over the VOR!) that is better than a TCAS RA or worse on the way in!!
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Egcc
Posts: 1,695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's good to see the two sides to the problem;
A couple of years back we were heading towards LANAK on our way to EGPF. Over the top of LANAK was a red paint on the wx radar. The Scottish controller was working at least at his peak, possibly just over the curve and getting overloaded. He was working lots of traffic with constant RT. We were told to hold at LANAK and requested holding over the GOW due wx. Refused. Couple of miles later and asked again, this time told (vehemently to hold at LANAK). Entered the hold in turbulence and was struck by lightening 3 times in the first hold. At that point we exited the hold towards the west and then told the controller that we were on a heading to avoid. So you can't win, just try what you can to comply. What we must all remember here is that the captain has the ultimate responsibility for the safety of his aircraft and when he deems it necessary he can make the decision not to follow an ATC instruction. It's all down to risk assessment and with TCAS the commander has a reasonable chance of disobeying an ATC instruction yet still keeping separation from other traffic. I felt the incident in question had a lot to do with the controller being overloaded and literally just trying to hold everything together as he did not have sufficient capacity left for 'alternatives.'
To close I would like to offer my thanks to all those ATCOs who do such a great job day in day out, especially London sector controllers who's capacity and professionalism often get the pair of us looking at each and remarking "they're busy!" when what we really mean is "how the hell do they cope with this workload?"
Thanks again
PP
A couple of years back we were heading towards LANAK on our way to EGPF. Over the top of LANAK was a red paint on the wx radar. The Scottish controller was working at least at his peak, possibly just over the curve and getting overloaded. He was working lots of traffic with constant RT. We were told to hold at LANAK and requested holding over the GOW due wx. Refused. Couple of miles later and asked again, this time told (vehemently to hold at LANAK). Entered the hold in turbulence and was struck by lightening 3 times in the first hold. At that point we exited the hold towards the west and then told the controller that we were on a heading to avoid. So you can't win, just try what you can to comply. What we must all remember here is that the captain has the ultimate responsibility for the safety of his aircraft and when he deems it necessary he can make the decision not to follow an ATC instruction. It's all down to risk assessment and with TCAS the commander has a reasonable chance of disobeying an ATC instruction yet still keeping separation from other traffic. I felt the incident in question had a lot to do with the controller being overloaded and literally just trying to hold everything together as he did not have sufficient capacity left for 'alternatives.'
To close I would like to offer my thanks to all those ATCOs who do such a great job day in day out, especially London sector controllers who's capacity and professionalism often get the pair of us looking at each and remarking "they're busy!" when what we really mean is "how the hell do they cope with this workload?"
Thanks again
PP
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WMD...
Thanks for the reply...
Intrigued by your comment <<Slightly horrified that you risk both your own aircraft and others in the sky to avoid the "red".>>
Sorry - I'm not sure you understand. Avoiding going onto the "red" is not doing so to avoid a "few bumps" - it is to avoid risking the aircraft and occupants...
The following are potential consequences of going into red bits:
1. Aircraft falls apart = lots dead.
2. Aircraft loses control, and so takes up a random heading and altitude and climb / descent = ATC hacked off again!
3. Aircraft is badly damaged.
4. Aircraft occupants are killed or seriously injured in the turbulence encounter - even if aircraft only suffers minor damage.
These are relatively unlikely consequences, but the nature of the job is not to take the risk. Especially now with TCAS, if I have repeatedly tried to ask for avoiding action, and failed for whatever reason, I may judge the minimum overall risk is to take avoiding action without clearance from ATC first. That is what I am paid for...
I have to say, that if I took that course of action (and I haven't had to to date), then:
1. I would squawk 7700
2. I would make a Pan or Mayday call hoping I might actually get acknowledged.
3. The ASR / MOR paperwork would inevitably fly, and I would have to justify my actions.
<<which we don't have as we're already understaffed in a big way>>
<<Put on some severe flow rates which means more delays for you and the pax>>
<<Of course, we've to keep those delays to 1.2mins per flight I believe>>
Just puts the lie to my employers "Safety is our No. 1 Priority" - and presumably yours has something similar. They forget to add the small print - so long as it does not cost, and so long as it meets the bean counters' targets...
<<Make you stay on the ground until you can at least fly the SID or until the wx has gone>>
That's what you and I are paid for if an acceptable alternative cannot be found.
I was at LHR recently, and we had already incurred a significant (BA induced) delay. The the weather started... the Delivery controller kept us informed e.g. no aircraft has departed for 20 mins, massive problems flying the SIDs etc. etc. Very easy to take this info, pass it to the PAX, and hey presto - not a squeak! They'd also rather get to their dest late than not at all!
The RT loading problem around LHR is self perpetuating. Because of it, I now ask for avoiding action earlier and more often and more cautiously here than elsewhere, because I cannot rely on getting a call in when I will / may need it.
All the above said, 99% of the time it all works very well... I never cease to be amazed at how London area ATC copes with all the aircraft deviating with the same traffic levels as when we all fly where we're supposed to!
NoD
Thanks for the reply...
Intrigued by your comment <<Slightly horrified that you risk both your own aircraft and others in the sky to avoid the "red".>>
Sorry - I'm not sure you understand. Avoiding going onto the "red" is not doing so to avoid a "few bumps" - it is to avoid risking the aircraft and occupants...
The following are potential consequences of going into red bits:
1. Aircraft falls apart = lots dead.
2. Aircraft loses control, and so takes up a random heading and altitude and climb / descent = ATC hacked off again!
3. Aircraft is badly damaged.
4. Aircraft occupants are killed or seriously injured in the turbulence encounter - even if aircraft only suffers minor damage.
These are relatively unlikely consequences, but the nature of the job is not to take the risk. Especially now with TCAS, if I have repeatedly tried to ask for avoiding action, and failed for whatever reason, I may judge the minimum overall risk is to take avoiding action without clearance from ATC first. That is what I am paid for...
I have to say, that if I took that course of action (and I haven't had to to date), then:
1. I would squawk 7700
2. I would make a Pan or Mayday call hoping I might actually get acknowledged.
3. The ASR / MOR paperwork would inevitably fly, and I would have to justify my actions.
<<which we don't have as we're already understaffed in a big way>>
<<Put on some severe flow rates which means more delays for you and the pax>>
<<Of course, we've to keep those delays to 1.2mins per flight I believe>>
Just puts the lie to my employers "Safety is our No. 1 Priority" - and presumably yours has something similar. They forget to add the small print - so long as it does not cost, and so long as it meets the bean counters' targets...
<<Make you stay on the ground until you can at least fly the SID or until the wx has gone>>
That's what you and I are paid for if an acceptable alternative cannot be found.
I was at LHR recently, and we had already incurred a significant (BA induced) delay. The the weather started... the Delivery controller kept us informed e.g. no aircraft has departed for 20 mins, massive problems flying the SIDs etc. etc. Very easy to take this info, pass it to the PAX, and hey presto - not a squeak! They'd also rather get to their dest late than not at all!
The RT loading problem around LHR is self perpetuating. Because of it, I now ask for avoiding action earlier and more often and more cautiously here than elsewhere, because I cannot rely on getting a call in when I will / may need it.
All the above said, 99% of the time it all works very well... I never cease to be amazed at how London area ATC copes with all the aircraft deviating with the same traffic levels as when we all fly where we're supposed to!
NoD
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: England
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EyeintheSky
Silly me! I'd never have thought of going vertical when there's wx about OR maybe it was you operating as the LYDD controller who gave me the said 3 aircraft 5miles abreast all level at FL160 (as it was then)
I know that was the standing agreement at the time but there ain't much I can do with them when they've only just checked in and the centre one decides to take a 70degree turn to the left.. ah well...
Nod
Glad you mentioned good 'ole TCAS. There is an increasing number of pilots who seem to be fustrated controllers and use TCAS as a steering tool these days. I believe this to be a potentially dangerous development and have witnessed at least 3 airproxs over the past few years when pilots have used the TCAS for lateral separation.
As for delays, I hear today that you guys 'n' girls (or at least your companies) prefer to hold for 30 mins in the stack rather than take the delay on the ground?
WMD
Silly me! I'd never have thought of going vertical when there's wx about OR maybe it was you operating as the LYDD controller who gave me the said 3 aircraft 5miles abreast all level at FL160 (as it was then)
I know that was the standing agreement at the time but there ain't much I can do with them when they've only just checked in and the centre one decides to take a 70degree turn to the left.. ah well... Nod
Glad you mentioned good 'ole TCAS. There is an increasing number of pilots who seem to be fustrated controllers and use TCAS as a steering tool these days. I believe this to be a potentially dangerous development and have witnessed at least 3 airproxs over the past few years when pilots have used the TCAS for lateral separation.
As for delays, I hear today that you guys 'n' girls (or at least your companies) prefer to hold for 30 mins in the stack rather than take the delay on the ground?
WMD
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WMD...
I'm still not quite sure where your're coming from?
I am under your control. I have tried 4 times+ over a minute or 2 to get a Wx avoid call in. The frequency is very busy, each time I get stepped on or not acknowledged. There is a red painted area on the radar. I was unable to call earlier because a turn has only now made it visible, or it has only painted red more recently i.e. developing or was hidden etc.
What am I to do?
PS and the answer is not to fly into the red thing - I won't/don't!
I am not proposing to use TCAS to "self control". Just when (if) I am forced to deviate without clearance, it will help somewhat to determine which way I go.
Standing by!
NoD
I'm still not quite sure where your're coming from?
I am under your control. I have tried 4 times+ over a minute or 2 to get a Wx avoid call in. The frequency is very busy, each time I get stepped on or not acknowledged. There is a red painted area on the radar. I was unable to call earlier because a turn has only now made it visible, or it has only painted red more recently i.e. developing or was hidden etc.
What am I to do?
PS and the answer is not to fly into the red thing - I won't/don't!
I am not proposing to use TCAS to "self control". Just when (if) I am forced to deviate without clearance, it will help somewhat to determine which way I go.
Standing by!
NoD
Um!,
Think our friends in BMA have recently demonstrated interesting damage caused by hail. Also about a year back there were some very interesting pictures, posted on Pprune of the tristar at lyon that was written off. If anybody has a link to those pics maybe post them to WMD.
Think our friends in BMA have recently demonstrated interesting damage caused by hail. Also about a year back there were some very interesting pictures, posted on Pprune of the tristar at lyon that was written off. If anybody has a link to those pics maybe post them to WMD.