Brookmans Park & Dovers Poor Wx
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Can't see why this isn't a 7700 cert. As has been said, pilots are NOT going into the cell, therefore need priority handling, therefore can declare a Pan at least if not a Mayday for 'Priority Handling'.
I for one would certainly want to know if you are changing heading without my instruction ASAP, and if 7700 is the only attention getter then so be.
There may be a slight problem with this practice in the London TMA however. Down at sunny Swanwick, when a 77** code is selected, the callsign data is retained alongside the new squalk. I believe that in TC however, the callsign data is REPLACED, so by squalking 77** you can then possibly be asked, 'station squalking Mayday identify yourself'. I would imagine this could quite upset one or two of you, if not lead to a little confusion.
I for one would certainly want to know if you are changing heading without my instruction ASAP, and if 7700 is the only attention getter then so be.
There may be a slight problem with this practice in the London TMA however. Down at sunny Swanwick, when a 77** code is selected, the callsign data is retained alongside the new squalk. I believe that in TC however, the callsign data is REPLACED, so by squalking 77** you can then possibly be asked, 'station squalking Mayday identify yourself'. I would imagine this could quite upset one or two of you, if not lead to a little confusion.
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<<you can then possibly be asked, 'station squalking Mayday identify yourself'>>
Certainly solves the problem of getting the call in!
<<7700 is only to be used in emergency conditions and by putting it up when weather avoiding could serve to devalue the seriousness of its use>>
.7 - we're getting into circles here again... WMD is implying that any deviation from our assigned heading is likely to lead to an airprox - even Midair. If us putting ourselves in this situation is not an "emergency" I do not know what is....
To be frank, I do not know exactly what I am saying by squawking 7700?? Does it translate directly to "MAYDAY" - I've just found a website that says it does...
"Mayday" does not imply directly the seriousness of the emergency - what it does imply is the immediacy of the requested assistance. So I cannot think of a better use for it than here - I have been trying to get a word in, I cannot, I am now heading off somewhere else, I need your IMMEDIATE assistance to ensure my safety....
<<BOAC's WMD - I take it you would prefer us to fly into the CB then?>>
Well that's 2 of us trying to get that answer!
NoD
Certainly solves the problem of getting the call in!
<<7700 is only to be used in emergency conditions and by putting it up when weather avoiding could serve to devalue the seriousness of its use>>
.7 - we're getting into circles here again... WMD is implying that any deviation from our assigned heading is likely to lead to an airprox - even Midair. If us putting ourselves in this situation is not an "emergency" I do not know what is....
To be frank, I do not know exactly what I am saying by squawking 7700?? Does it translate directly to "MAYDAY" - I've just found a website that says it does...
"Mayday" does not imply directly the seriousness of the emergency - what it does imply is the immediacy of the requested assistance. So I cannot think of a better use for it than here - I have been trying to get a word in, I cannot, I am now heading off somewhere else, I need your IMMEDIATE assistance to ensure my safety....
<<BOAC's WMD - I take it you would prefer us to fly into the CB then?>>
Well that's 2 of us trying to get that answer!
NoD
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Circles again.. I don't want anyone to endanger their aircraft or another aircraft - it's part of my job to keep you safe and apart.
1. If you can get the call in - no problem we'll sort you out to get around the CB's - it's what we do.
2. If you can't get the call in, you will avoid it anyway.
Should you put on 7600/7700? You could debate that for ages - if it's less than a 10 degree turn on your part we'll probably not notice for a few minutes (if at all). If it's a huge turn - you'll get our attention straight away without sqawking 7700.
However, by selecting 7700 everyone in the room (TC) will notice you and will most probably vector their traffic out of your way. Our displays now keep your callsign when you select 7700.
As you say, you're in danger if you go into the CB and from an air traffic point you're in danger if you come off the SID/track you're on in the TMA so a 7700 is prudent if not justified.
If my colleagues down at NERC can put on a 7700 for a sick pax who has flown across the pond and still wants to go to destination, I think this case for a 7700 is proven.
We'll worry about the paperwork later.
WMD
1. If you can get the call in - no problem we'll sort you out to get around the CB's - it's what we do.
2. If you can't get the call in, you will avoid it anyway.
Should you put on 7600/7700? You could debate that for ages - if it's less than a 10 degree turn on your part we'll probably not notice for a few minutes (if at all). If it's a huge turn - you'll get our attention straight away without sqawking 7700.
However, by selecting 7700 everyone in the room (TC) will notice you and will most probably vector their traffic out of your way. Our displays now keep your callsign when you select 7700.
As you say, you're in danger if you go into the CB and from an air traffic point you're in danger if you come off the SID/track you're on in the TMA so a 7700 is prudent if not justified.
If my colleagues down at NERC can put on a 7700 for a sick pax who has flown across the pond and still wants to go to destination, I think this case for a 7700 is proven.
We'll worry about the paperwork later.
WMD
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well said WMD
the only thing I would reiterate is to give us as much info and warning asap.
as I said earlier, I appreciate you may not know where your next heading will be - but if you are on a STAR you will have a rough idea of yr track so tell us please.
What range do you fly with yr wx radar on so that it can give usable details of the cells?
the only thing I would reiterate is to give us as much info and warning asap.
as I said earlier, I appreciate you may not know where your next heading will be - but if you are on a STAR you will have a rough idea of yr track so tell us please.
What range do you fly with yr wx radar on so that it can give usable details of the cells?
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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but if you are on a STAR you will have a rough idea of yr track so tell us please.
The radar only looks certain angles left and right, so sometimes the cells can 'pop up' into view fairly unexpectedly.
Radar ranges used vary according to the route and weather.
So, 7700 is the favourite then? It WILL generate safety paperwork on both sides, which SHOULD have the beneficial effect of re-inforcing to management and the system the problems ATC have in manning/sector levels.
I'd like to 'echo' that working London ATC in bad weather is a most impressive experience - keep up the excellent work guys and girls.
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It's the usual story: Ask 6 ATCOs / Pliots a question and you will get 60 different answers!
Here's my tuppenceworth:
1) Plan ahead: If on the flight deck your weather radar shows that your present track (if on a heading) or intended track (on own nav) shows that you will need to avoid, then ask earlier rather than later. That can be as suggested so far: "I will need to turn L or R in 15/20 etc miles" or "I need to stay high to get over the top" (not always feasible).
Down on the ground, if I really need someone to stay on a heading for a climb through or whatever and I know there is wx about, I will check with them first that they are able to continue on the heading for x miles before committing myself. I will also suggest early on that if they are planning weather avoidance the direction in which they should plan to go which will help me out. That might mean a bigger detour but it's better than a late turn directly into other traffic.
2) Modify your plan: If there is wx about, don't commit to large amounts of radar headings: use stepped climbs and descents so that you can accommodate changes of heading. If asked, I am usually able to say, don't turn yet, but on passing X you can avoid as you wish.
I appreciate that we can't cover every eventuality here, but I suggest that it should be an uncommon occurrence (even in the LTMA in my experience) that the situation is so desperate that you are thinking of 7700 and a TCAS-based separation. If the weather is that bad then in the TMA you should be stopping departures or putting MDIs on and getting flow involved to reduce the inbound load. In en-route then the flow measures or splitting should help. But it can all be reduced by using different techniques than the usual. If the delays build, then that's preferable to a new pair of underpants or worse due to frequency loading.
Short answer for BOAC's question: Do what you have to do, but if you have left it that late to make the decision then you are in the sh1t anyway and we will have to cope. Certainly don't squawk 7700 or 7600: it just adds to the uncertainty and hassle.
Another tip I perhaps shouldn't let on is that if you REALLY need to talk then if you key the mike and make the message quite long, the chances are that the end of your message will come after the end of the ATCO's or the other a/c, and you will get a "Station asking for wx avoidance, say again" and you are in!!
PS : I'm also strongly against the wholesale use of 7700 as taught in TRUCE. Unless the aircraft itself is in trouble or is going to descend rapidly into unsuspecting airspace, why the f*** should you put 7700 on for a 747 from HKG who has a heart attack patient on board and has just flown past Frankfurt, Brussels, Amsterdam and Stansted? All the necessary expedition can be arranged by phone without waking up every radar unit in the country including D&D!
PPS: Don't forget to ask the SOB at the same time as putting on 7700!!
"err 375 SOB London. Oh, sorry, make that 374 and we'd like to cancel the Pan"
Here's my tuppenceworth:
1) Plan ahead: If on the flight deck your weather radar shows that your present track (if on a heading) or intended track (on own nav) shows that you will need to avoid, then ask earlier rather than later. That can be as suggested so far: "I will need to turn L or R in 15/20 etc miles" or "I need to stay high to get over the top" (not always feasible).
Down on the ground, if I really need someone to stay on a heading for a climb through or whatever and I know there is wx about, I will check with them first that they are able to continue on the heading for x miles before committing myself. I will also suggest early on that if they are planning weather avoidance the direction in which they should plan to go which will help me out. That might mean a bigger detour but it's better than a late turn directly into other traffic.
2) Modify your plan: If there is wx about, don't commit to large amounts of radar headings: use stepped climbs and descents so that you can accommodate changes of heading. If asked, I am usually able to say, don't turn yet, but on passing X you can avoid as you wish.
I appreciate that we can't cover every eventuality here, but I suggest that it should be an uncommon occurrence (even in the LTMA in my experience) that the situation is so desperate that you are thinking of 7700 and a TCAS-based separation. If the weather is that bad then in the TMA you should be stopping departures or putting MDIs on and getting flow involved to reduce the inbound load. In en-route then the flow measures or splitting should help. But it can all be reduced by using different techniques than the usual. If the delays build, then that's preferable to a new pair of underpants or worse due to frequency loading.
Short answer for BOAC's question: Do what you have to do, but if you have left it that late to make the decision then you are in the sh1t anyway and we will have to cope. Certainly don't squawk 7700 or 7600: it just adds to the uncertainty and hassle.
Another tip I perhaps shouldn't let on is that if you REALLY need to talk then if you key the mike and make the message quite long, the chances are that the end of your message will come after the end of the ATCO's or the other a/c, and you will get a "Station asking for wx avoidance, say again" and you are in!!
PS : I'm also strongly against the wholesale use of 7700 as taught in TRUCE. Unless the aircraft itself is in trouble or is going to descend rapidly into unsuspecting airspace, why the f*** should you put 7700 on for a 747 from HKG who has a heart attack patient on board and has just flown past Frankfurt, Brussels, Amsterdam and Stansted? All the necessary expedition can be arranged by phone without waking up every radar unit in the country including D&D!
PPS: Don't forget to ask the SOB at the same time as putting on 7700!!
"err 375 SOB London. Oh, sorry, make that 374 and we'd like to cancel the Pan"
Morning Calm
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Late arrival in this long thread, but here goes. "Station asking for weather avoidance.........." Well I fly a subsonic jet, not a station, and that is the point! Usually doing 250 IAS, maybe 280-300 TAS in the sky, and the blobs aren't static either, they are blowing in the wind and can grow at a good rate too. If the frequency is too busy to get a foot in the door, then I will avoid first and ask second, preferring to take the outside chance of a TCAS to the certainty of a battering in the red stuff.
As for an unannounced A7700, no way! In the USA you'd have an F16 escort in seconds......but then the USA controllers seem to be (have to be) more aware of the cb's, and are more sympathetic about keeping everyone in the clear as much as possible. On the odd occasion in the UK when the clouds get really ugly, I have found the LHR controllers to be very flexible, but I understand them getting weary of planes dodging 'fair weather Cu'............
So, as usual, some pilots & controllers good, some not so good, but every pilot owes it to his plane and passengers to avoid real Cb's.
As for an unannounced A7700, no way! In the USA you'd have an F16 escort in seconds......but then the USA controllers seem to be (have to be) more aware of the cb's, and are more sympathetic about keeping everyone in the clear as much as possible. On the odd occasion in the UK when the clouds get really ugly, I have found the LHR controllers to be very flexible, but I understand them getting weary of planes dodging 'fair weather Cu'............
So, as usual, some pilots & controllers good, some not so good, but every pilot owes it to his plane and passengers to avoid real Cb's.
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I'm a mere pax observer here, privileged to experience such a professional exchange of views on an amazingly complex topic whose resolution to me seems often to require superhuman skills and stamina both from those in the air and those on the ground.
A couple of linked facts bother me though.
A respected UN organisation has just, unusually, pronounced that the world's weather is now undoubtedly changing fast due to global warming. One of the implications is that the UK's weather will get not just warmer, but more extreme. This means a more energetic heat engine driving more CBs and more situations like those of the 2nd July around London.
Against this fact I think I recall reading in one of the responses on this thread that London ATC no longer has access to wx radar. If this is true, is it not indeed something approaching madness? Surely with modern technology the ATCers should have as complete an access to relevant data as mankind can devise?
A couple of linked facts bother me though.
A respected UN organisation has just, unusually, pronounced that the world's weather is now undoubtedly changing fast due to global warming. One of the implications is that the UK's weather will get not just warmer, but more extreme. This means a more energetic heat engine driving more CBs and more situations like those of the 2nd July around London.
Against this fact I think I recall reading in one of the responses on this thread that London ATC no longer has access to wx radar. If this is true, is it not indeed something approaching madness? Surely with modern technology the ATCers should have as complete an access to relevant data as mankind can devise?
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Seloco,
The only thing in the ops room at TC showing any weather is the computer down the far end running a program called 'MIST'. It can show you the forcast weather (ie where the rain will most likely be) and the actual weather(rainfall) at half hourly intervals (I think). It can do a few other things too (lightning for eg) but it's a tool to help the traffic manager really. Rumour has it that there were/are plans to ditch it completely.
The radar displays have all the weather filtered out. It would be great to have a switch so we could flick it on and off again occasionally.
WMD
The only thing in the ops room at TC showing any weather is the computer down the far end running a program called 'MIST'. It can show you the forcast weather (ie where the rain will most likely be) and the actual weather(rainfall) at half hourly intervals (I think). It can do a few other things too (lightning for eg) but it's a tool to help the traffic manager really. Rumour has it that there were/are plans to ditch it completely.
The radar displays have all the weather filtered out. It would be great to have a switch so we could flick it on and off again occasionally.
WMD
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Thanks for the clarification, WMD.
I find it hard to believe that you guys are not given access to technology that could tell you when a blasted great cell is hovering over Ockham or wherever. It sounds rather like being asked to direct a group of people through a minefield, but perversely having to rely on them to tell you where the mines are!
I find it hard to believe that you guys are not given access to technology that could tell you when a blasted great cell is hovering over Ockham or wherever. It sounds rather like being asked to direct a group of people through a minefield, but perversely having to rely on them to tell you where the mines are!
