View Poll Results: At what age do you think airline pilots should forced to stop piloting?
No age limit subject to medicals and competency
752
54.22%
They should stop flying at 65
297
21.41%
They should stop flying at 60
317
22.86%
No opinion
21
1.51%
Voters: 1387. This poll is closed
The new law on "ageism" - where does it leave pilots and crew who want to carry on!?
Agree totally with Pirate as I am in a similar position. This legislation would be excellent news if applied to aviation and we should lobby our representative bodies to ensure that it is.
Older pilots also have a wealth of experience and wisdom which they can pass on and are often good mentors to the less experienced.
As an aside, my father was still examining instructors on light aircraft when he was 80 plus!
Older pilots also have a wealth of experience and wisdom which they can pass on and are often good mentors to the less experienced.
As an aside, my father was still examining instructors on light aircraft when he was 80 plus!
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Firefly Bob,
Was your dad Hector Taylor by any chance? He did my instructor rating test in 1979. It was quite a revelation to be sharing a cockpit with a man who learnt to fly on the Avro 504.
Was your dad Hector Taylor by any chance? He did my instructor rating test in 1979. It was quite a revelation to be sharing a cockpit with a man who learnt to fly on the Avro 504.
There is no reason whatsoever why anyone should feel the need to explain why they continue in work as long as they wish.
Those who feel that they can tell others how to run their lives should be treated with the contempt which such people deserve.
So there!
Those who feel that they can tell others how to run their lives should be treated with the contempt which such people deserve.
So there!
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HotDog
There is no retirement age for pilots in Canada. However the airlines or more accurately the unions insist upon the imfamous age 60 rule.
The pension plans are in flex at the present moment so I expect that we are going to see a change in the future. Some folks are old at age 60 some arn'nt.
There is no retirement age for pilots in Canada. However the airlines or more accurately the unions insist upon the imfamous age 60 rule.
The pension plans are in flex at the present moment so I expect that we are going to see a change in the future. Some folks are old at age 60 some arn'nt.
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Tan - you are absolutely right. Some people can perform safely for much longer into old age than others. I am also sure that most responsible airline captains recognise their limitations as they get to the point at which they should retire and do so. It is, however, a little worrying that some on this forum see the need to fly as long as possible regardless.
The problem is surely for the airline companies - if the government rules that they have to let these people continue to fly regardless, who is responsible when things fall apart because one of their old employees screwed up. Well, obviously the government, but who foots the bill?
There will have to be exceptions where the safety of the customer is involved.
The problem is surely for the airline companies - if the government rules that they have to let these people continue to fly regardless, who is responsible when things fall apart because one of their old employees screwed up. Well, obviously the government, but who foots the bill?
There will have to be exceptions where the safety of the customer is involved.
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There doesn't seem to be much of a relationship between numerical age and performance.... I can remember one of the ancestors, cattleman all his life, cutting out scrubbers in his eighties, tooling through the trees and over the rocks at a hundred miles an hour, horse full stretch, stockwhip cracking, sweat flying, dust and sparks, all action.... Some people, on the other hand, seem to start tripping over things when they hit fifity. Some don't get that far.
My impression, just looking at these older guys, is that if they are fit enough to want to go to work, then they very probably are fit enough to do it.
Seems the Australians and the New Zealanders, yet again, have got it right.
My impression, just looking at these older guys, is that if they are fit enough to want to go to work, then they very probably are fit enough to do it.
Seems the Australians and the New Zealanders, yet again, have got it right.
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Might be worth bearing in mind that if employers decide to pull you off the flight deck at 60 or 65 and allow you to stay on in another role, any final salary pension could be considerably reduced. After all, do you really think any beancounter worth his salt will pay the same salary for a ground bound old fogey to that of his marginally younger flying counterpart?
I can see the airlines falling over backwards to assist any way they can with this one - just imagine the savings!
I can see the airlines falling over backwards to assist any way they can with this one - just imagine the savings!
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Every final salary pension scheme I know of has provisions that adequately cover change of job and salary within the company. It is also normal for such schemes to allow early pensions for those who have to retire early due to company policy.
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I believe in many cases, at least to this point in time, pilot Union Contracts have prevailed in the establishment of a mandatory retirement age.
These unions fostered the idea of retirement at age 55/60/65 early on by writing that number into their contracts in a day and age vastly different from today. At a time when women on the flight deck would merely serve tea and leave. Not so nowadays my friend.
Pilots believed 'there came a time' when it was time to get out and that number seemed to fit rather nicely back then. Pilots bought it, companies bought it and so it went. Here we are today. Not only in conflict with ourselves but also with our past, our civil laws and our civil liberites. How things have changed? It's incredible.
Who's right?
What's right?
I'm not certain the Airlines and pilot unions generally (worldwide) have it right as far as retirement age goes, anyway? Certainly not in this day and age. After all, the reality is, we're living longer, we're in better health much longer in life and able to contribute longer. So why not stay on??? At least, let's make it more of a mutual decision but within reason.
The way this industry is going who in their right minds would wish to continue flying much beyond 60 anyway?
Some out there may have enjoyed a stable and successful flying career with an established carrier that has maintained reasonable financial health over the past 30-40 years. Others haven't been so fortunate and as a result might well wish to provide a better retirement for themselves by staying beyond age 55 or 60. Let's not forget that in the 60s and 70s the term Low Cost Carrier wasn't heard. Nor did there exist the number of IT carriers to the extent they do today. I see them popping up left, right, and centre these days and failing at a similar rate. So, why not let a bloke continue to fly for as long as he's able to maintain 'the standards' across the board??
I used to be a 24 year old CPL wishing the old fellas into retirement so I could have my crack at it. However, today at age 52....I've 'ad enuff Mate! Can't pack it in soon enuff!!!
AT some point though, surely to goodness, retirement MUST be mandatory.
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SCD are you for real? I fly with a "senior" flight engineer, who is by pilot terms way over the hill! Hs is also one of the sharpest weve got....lets leave the decision in the same place as it has been in the past........The medical and the CAA appointed examiners.Its hard in this day and age to get past the media, but the choice of the healthy individual must,providing all else is in good order,be allowed.
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Timeless age1
For those on JAA/JAR. 65yrs. It's what the local authority authorizes? If you are fit..then be my guest!
The problem, is what do you do about the limitations stipulated on the individual labour agreements, between union and company? That's, I m afraid, going to be a long discusssion...I know I am still fighting it!
The problem, is what do you do about the limitations stipulated on the individual labour agreements, between union and company? That's, I m afraid, going to be a long discusssion...I know I am still fighting it!
Just to add my threepenn'th.
I had to retire at 60 and, quite honestly, I'd had enough of the present Airline business by this time - well, certainly of operating out of LHR.
My gripe is they wouldn't even let me carry on flying a light twin for a living, - or rather a paying hobby.
Trouble is I'm fortunate enough to be as fit as a fiddle and I'm just not ready, mentally, to pack it up at an instant. I really hoped for a gentle reduction in the demands on me.
I actually fly because I always wanted to,because I actually enjoy it and because I'd probably go to an early grave if I was forced to stop flying altogether !
In the meantime I teach aerobatics.
Regards, Sleeve.
I had to retire at 60 and, quite honestly, I'd had enough of the present Airline business by this time - well, certainly of operating out of LHR.
My gripe is they wouldn't even let me carry on flying a light twin for a living, - or rather a paying hobby.
Trouble is I'm fortunate enough to be as fit as a fiddle and I'm just not ready, mentally, to pack it up at an instant. I really hoped for a gentle reduction in the demands on me.
I actually fly because I always wanted to,because I actually enjoy it and because I'd probably go to an early grave if I was forced to stop flying altogether !
In the meantime I teach aerobatics.
Regards, Sleeve.
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Last edited by fiftyfour; 7th Jul 2003 at 02:57.
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Taken to its logical conclusion the new law could mean that a lot of 87 year old pilots will be watching 97 year old lap dancers during their stopovers!!!
Yes, I know you wouldn't really do that, but if they can pass the medical and want to continue......(the pilots I mean, we all know that lap dancers are too old at 26).
My mind is beginning to boggle.
Yes, I know you wouldn't really do that, but if they can pass the medical and want to continue......(the pilots I mean, we all know that lap dancers are too old at 26).
My mind is beginning to boggle.
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Whilst there are undoubtedly those who become doddering old fogeys at the age of 55, many people these days are staying fitter, healthier and mentally younger than their predecessors in the 1950s and 1960s. My late uncle, at the age of 99 was not only still driving his car, but he also serviced it himself - in over 80 years of driving he never had an accident. There are many of us like that in aviation nowadays (not 99 year old pilots who service there own aircraft, he hastens to add!!). IMHO, if a pilot is able to pass the medical and the proficiency checks required for his/her licence, there is no good reason to stop him/her flying until at least 65. Aviation legislation (and ICAO) also need to keep up with the times and recognise that people in general are living longer, healthier lives.
SCD, you must also recognise that not old all airline pilots are highly paid Jumbo drivers. There are many of us flying helicopters, or flying as bush pilots in third world countries who earn very mediocre salaries who could not possible afford to retire at 50 or 55. We have one 65 year old pilot in my company who still flies a DHC6 in the bush for 6 or 7 hours a day and is very fit and sharp.
Surely, it's just the old 'horses for courses' thing. There are those who want to retire early and those who don't. There are those who are old at 50 and those who are young at 70 and the new proposals just seem to take these things into account (though it being the EU, one is never quite sure
SCD, you must also recognise that not old all airline pilots are highly paid Jumbo drivers. There are many of us flying helicopters, or flying as bush pilots in third world countries who earn very mediocre salaries who could not possible afford to retire at 50 or 55. We have one 65 year old pilot in my company who still flies a DHC6 in the bush for 6 or 7 hours a day and is very fit and sharp.
Surely, it's just the old 'horses for courses' thing. There are those who want to retire early and those who don't. There are those who are old at 50 and those who are young at 70 and the new proposals just seem to take these things into account (though it being the EU, one is never quite sure
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OK I agree not all people are over the hill at 60 or 65 but who then has to police the situation.To say if you can get a medical then you should be allowed to carry on is rubish as not all AME's are the same.I used to see one some years ago that if you could find his office you had passed.I am sure most people know of someone who they think I wonder how he carry's on or why do they let him carry on.The airline way these days is not what you know but who you know. The only way to police this is as we have now set rules that say when you are 60 you stop flying large a/c.OK this will stop some who are capable of carrying on but how else can you do it.How many people have sat at home and just watched the news and seen a judge let someone off for murder or given them 2 years and said these judges are not in touch they are over the hill. Well i'm sure if you asked them they too would say I'm ok to carry on ?
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Hi,
Just for info and to "level the playing field", here are the texts of ICAO Annex 1 and JAR-FCL 1 on max age:
ICAO Annex 1:
JAR-FCL 1:
This age limit in JAR-FCL applies only to commercial air transport, and not to aerial work, corporate aviation, instruction/training flights, testing, etc.
Cheers,
RedBar1
Just for info and to "level the playing field", here are the texts of ICAO Annex 1 and JAR-FCL 1 on max age:
ICAO Annex 1:
2.1.10.1 A Contracting State, having issued pilot licenses, shall not permit the holders thereof to act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft engaged in scheduled international air services or non-scheduled international air transport operations for remuneration or hire if the licence holders have attained their 60th birthday.
1.060 (a) Age 60–64. The holder of a pilot licence who has attained the age of 60 years shall not act as a pilot of an aircraft engaged in commercial air transport operations except:
(1) as a member of a multi-pilot crew and provided that,
(2) such holder is the only pilot in the flight crew who has attained age 60.
(b) Age 65. The holder of a pilot licence who has attained the age of 65 years shall not act as a pilot of an aircraft engaged in commercial air transport operations.
(1) as a member of a multi-pilot crew and provided that,
(2) such holder is the only pilot in the flight crew who has attained age 60.
(b) Age 65. The holder of a pilot licence who has attained the age of 65 years shall not act as a pilot of an aircraft engaged in commercial air transport operations.
Cheers,
RedBar1