To Go or Not to Go
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To Go or Not to Go
I was at Gatwick this afternoon on a social visit. As many of you know there were a fair few active Cbs in the vicinity. At one point there was a great big black one right off the end of 26L and it was raining cats and dogs with associated lightning.
I figured that there would now be a lull in the proceedings for 15 minutes or so while the thing drifted off to the south. To my surprise, a 773 set off down the runway like a submarine and vanished into the middle of it. He was followed by a 763 which got to about 1500 feet when a bolt of lightning came out of the cloud and I am 99% certain that he took a lightning strike.
Now I have been struck by lightning many times in the last 40 years or so and I realise that it seldom causes serious damage to the aircraft but it almost always causes a serious shortage of clean underwear in the passenger cabin! For the average punter this is not a good start to a flight.
I am fascinated to know why some people feel that they must get on with it come what may rather than wait a few minutes until the threat of microbursts, lightning strikes, severe turbulence and hail damage has moved away.
I can remember pulling my DC-10 into the layby on a Caribbean airfield for just this reason. It only took 10-15 minutes but during that time no less than 7 aircraft (including some brave bas**rd in a DC-3) went past me and vanished into the thing.
Is it commercial pressure or a lack of understanding of what can go wrong when you are at low level and heavy on take-off?
I am pleased to say that the next aircraft due for take-off was a Nigel 737 and he decided to wait. In my opinion he was a wise man.
I figured that there would now be a lull in the proceedings for 15 minutes or so while the thing drifted off to the south. To my surprise, a 773 set off down the runway like a submarine and vanished into the middle of it. He was followed by a 763 which got to about 1500 feet when a bolt of lightning came out of the cloud and I am 99% certain that he took a lightning strike.
Now I have been struck by lightning many times in the last 40 years or so and I realise that it seldom causes serious damage to the aircraft but it almost always causes a serious shortage of clean underwear in the passenger cabin! For the average punter this is not a good start to a flight.
I am fascinated to know why some people feel that they must get on with it come what may rather than wait a few minutes until the threat of microbursts, lightning strikes, severe turbulence and hail damage has moved away.
I can remember pulling my DC-10 into the layby on a Caribbean airfield for just this reason. It only took 10-15 minutes but during that time no less than 7 aircraft (including some brave bas**rd in a DC-3) went past me and vanished into the thing.
Is it commercial pressure or a lack of understanding of what can go wrong when you are at low level and heavy on take-off?
I am pleased to say that the next aircraft due for take-off was a Nigel 737 and he decided to wait. In my opinion he was a wise man.
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I flew back from HAV 2 weeks ago via KIN to LHR on Air Jamaica (A343).When we arrived at the airport,it looked very threatening weatherwise....in fact,only the night before I had remarked to my girlfriend that I was glad we weren't flying back then as there was a huge storm!
Anyway,storm kicked off fully just as we were about to board.Now speaking as a passenger and ex flight dispatcher (i.e I have some knowledege about wx conditions and flight ops,albeit limited!) I was pretty bloody glad our Capt.decided to wait......it was the folks on the AF 747 I felt for....you could see the staff trying to get everyone so they could get the hell out before the storm broke.It must have been scary stuff for them taking off in that.
As with previous post,just wondered what you drivers thought about this topic?
Anyway,storm kicked off fully just as we were about to board.Now speaking as a passenger and ex flight dispatcher (i.e I have some knowledege about wx conditions and flight ops,albeit limited!) I was pretty bloody glad our Capt.decided to wait......it was the folks on the AF 747 I felt for....you could see the staff trying to get everyone so they could get the hell out before the storm broke.It must have been scary stuff for them taking off in that.
As with previous post,just wondered what you drivers thought about this topic?
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Like most pilots I have taken both options in the past. Working in the Far East I became a little blase about taking off into Cb's but like you, I started to sit at the hold for a while and decline to get airborne as I got older.
Funnily enough, the first time was on a DC10 in the Caribbean. Perhaps we know each other!
Funnily enough, the first time was on a DC10 in the Caribbean. Perhaps we know each other!
JW411, I am with you on this one.
It's just so obvious - why take off into potentially hazadous conditions? Take off and immediate climb thereafter are one of the more critical phases of flight.
Also, we should not base our actions on what everyone else is doing - the majority are not always correct.
My father, a veteran light a/c instructor who was still flying when he was 81, always told me that you are much better off down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here and that if you had the slightest doubt then do not take off!
It's just so obvious - why take off into potentially hazadous conditions? Take off and immediate climb thereafter are one of the more critical phases of flight.
Also, we should not base our actions on what everyone else is doing - the majority are not always correct.
My father, a veteran light a/c instructor who was still flying when he was 81, always told me that you are much better off down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here and that if you had the slightest doubt then do not take off!
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FFB .... my father was a Spit pilot during you know what and after decommisioning never flew up front again ...... I suspect he had the latter view you mentioned ......
"up there wishing he was down here" .... lol
he never told us why !!!! ...... cheers .....
"up there wishing he was down here" .... lol
he never told us why !!!! ...... cheers .....
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As with Lou, I worked in SE Asia for some time and some of the people I flew with were very blase about flying right into the throat of the biggest darkest cells I've ever seen. In this regard, the Indonesian pilots I worked with were the worst, as though the weather posed an insult to one's manhood. I decided when I was a captain, I would never treat the weather (and my crew) with such total disregard. But, a few years ago down at Nice one evening you would have sworn it was a total eclipse, the sky went black and it started a very nasty storm with rain like golf balls on the windshield, so after giving it a bit of thought I pulled back on stand (much to the relief of my FO) and we waited it out for twenty minutes or so. BMI had started up before us and he did the same. A couple departed into it, and who knows what sort of thumping they got, but I remember it well and would do the same tomorrow!!
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Far better to be 30 minutes late departing the gate, than arriving even one minute early in the next life !
The people who blast off with Cb's sitting about the airfield, seemingly chuck common sense out of the window.
E.g. What if they suffer an engine failure or flameout just after lift off ? Now operating on a reduced number of donkeys, and with all of the potential for wind shear / hail / ice / flameout / etc - a time when you want everything going for you, and not for Mother Nature to be biting your sorry ass - but go figure ?!
So why not just wait it out - after all, the rest of your life as well as the priceless lives of your passengers sitting behind you are really not worth taking risks over - especially not for the sake of keeping to 'schedule' - and you can be certain that your pax will love you and your airline for not taking risks with their lives as, imho, nothing scares the crap out of pax more than you charging through a Cb in any stage of flight !
How about: “Ladies & gentlemen, boys & girls. We're just going to sit here for a few minutes whilst we wait for the thunderstorm(s) that are in the area to pass through. Once that has happened we'll be on our way and it shouldn’t inconvenience our timely arrival too much. That said, some of you might be able to see a few aircraft taking off into the storm but I trust that you’ll understand that, here at XYZ airline, we genuinely take the safety of our passengers very seriously – unlike some other airlines........ " aka. the ‘damned with faint praise’ approach.
The people who blast off with Cb's sitting about the airfield, seemingly chuck common sense out of the window.
E.g. What if they suffer an engine failure or flameout just after lift off ? Now operating on a reduced number of donkeys, and with all of the potential for wind shear / hail / ice / flameout / etc - a time when you want everything going for you, and not for Mother Nature to be biting your sorry ass - but go figure ?!
So why not just wait it out - after all, the rest of your life as well as the priceless lives of your passengers sitting behind you are really not worth taking risks over - especially not for the sake of keeping to 'schedule' - and you can be certain that your pax will love you and your airline for not taking risks with their lives as, imho, nothing scares the crap out of pax more than you charging through a Cb in any stage of flight !
How about: “Ladies & gentlemen, boys & girls. We're just going to sit here for a few minutes whilst we wait for the thunderstorm(s) that are in the area to pass through. Once that has happened we'll be on our way and it shouldn’t inconvenience our timely arrival too much. That said, some of you might be able to see a few aircraft taking off into the storm but I trust that you’ll understand that, here at XYZ airline, we genuinely take the safety of our passengers very seriously – unlike some other airlines........ " aka. the ‘damned with faint praise’ approach.
Last edited by Devils Advocate; 14th May 2003 at 05:41.
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Hmm I’m having a problem here. If the Captain of a flight decides to do a T/O on what he see’s and feels is safe operation, then what right do you have to armchair his decision? Were any of you in his seat? No, so please don’t second-guess the decisions of others.
It’s the same thing as arm chairing an incident or accident after the fact in my mind.
It’s the same thing as arm chairing an incident or accident after the fact in my mind.
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Tan, point taken, but this is a forum and we should be able to debate sensibly.
I don't follow this 'I was the captain on the day and we're still alive' logic, otherwise we learn nothing from our experiences.
I don't follow this 'I was the captain on the day and we're still alive' logic, otherwise we learn nothing from our experiences.
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This driver likes to stay as far as sensibly possible away from them darn storm clouds. 1. The Cabin crew get all upset, 2. The manufactuer has told us about double eng failures after a lightening stike and 3. its is very hard to do the crossword when your in them. I've seen just what 411 and Klink have seen, other crews blasting off into a storm and us sitting it out, I have no hesitation. Hell of a lot of energy in a full blown TS.
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Tan - evidently you do have a problem here. The captain's decision is not sacrosanct. It is most certainly open to question and scrutiny, not least if it is suspect or flawed.
The original post is not "arm-chairing" after sifting through an accident report with the advantage of an honours degree in hindsight. It is a legitimate question based on observation, personal experience and apparent incredulity at the decision made by some aircraft commanders.
As Lou Scannon said, in the past I have been taken there by others as well as myself. Having learnt through experience, now I'll sit at the holding point for the extra 10 or 15 minutes.
Just like the original post, I like many (albeit perhaps privately) will legitimately ask this very valid question in the same or similar circumstances.
The original post is not "arm-chairing" after sifting through an accident report with the advantage of an honours degree in hindsight. It is a legitimate question based on observation, personal experience and apparent incredulity at the decision made by some aircraft commanders.
As Lou Scannon said, in the past I have been taken there by others as well as myself. Having learnt through experience, now I'll sit at the holding point for the extra 10 or 15 minutes.
Just like the original post, I like many (albeit perhaps privately) will legitimately ask this very valid question in the same or similar circumstances.
Tan, I hope that in your airline you are allowed to voice an opinion.
I'm a pax, have many friends up front and have been through too many sweaty TCs in the upper Amazon and elsewhere, and lost too many other friends to them, to be blasé. I'm with anyone - and their airline - who says "let's give it another fifteen minutes" even if that means missing my connection or having to go back for more fuel/overnighting in cockroachville/whatever.
But.... it's always comforting for the pax to come through and say "we're going to wait some fifteen minutes for the thunderclouds in our takeoff path to move aside, blah blah....", and, when the cb activity has passed from your straight-ahead view and is now providing the pax with a full fireworks display on the port/stbd side, "well it's moved aside now and even if it looks fierce to your left/right we'll be skirting the worst etc. blah blah..."
Now let me get back to my grandmother and those eggs she's trying to suck....
I'm a pax, have many friends up front and have been through too many sweaty TCs in the upper Amazon and elsewhere, and lost too many other friends to them, to be blasé. I'm with anyone - and their airline - who says "let's give it another fifteen minutes" even if that means missing my connection or having to go back for more fuel/overnighting in cockroachville/whatever.
But.... it's always comforting for the pax to come through and say "we're going to wait some fifteen minutes for the thunderclouds in our takeoff path to move aside, blah blah....", and, when the cb activity has passed from your straight-ahead view and is now providing the pax with a full fireworks display on the port/stbd side, "well it's moved aside now and even if it looks fierce to your left/right we'll be skirting the worst etc. blah blah..."
Now let me get back to my grandmother and those eggs she's trying to suck....
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The view from the ground of an aircraft departing into weather can be quite misleading.
Its not many airfields that have weather radar that give a true picture of the magnitude and direction of storm cells. If you can line up or get into a layby and take up runway heading in order to have a look with your own radar, you might find that your departure will turn you well clear, whereas an observer would see you disappear into the black stuff.
Its not many airfields that have weather radar that give a true picture of the magnitude and direction of storm cells. If you can line up or get into a layby and take up runway heading in order to have a look with your own radar, you might find that your departure will turn you well clear, whereas an observer would see you disappear into the black stuff.
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JW411 mentions commercial pressure as a possible cause for this behaviour. Well I think peer pressure is a much more powerful factor - "if others are departing it must be alright, mustn't it?"
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and the other side of the coin....
In some cases, the Captain has decided that it is safe to go, whereas the First Officer, having looked at the radar (while in the hold position, or close thereby) and definately does not like what he sees....what is he to do?
The wise Captain would have a think (what if he is right, even if he has never been before...or, he's to young to know...or, so what, my minds made up, going anyway, etc).
Hard to explain those big dents in the leading edge you received from hail to the Chief Pilot....and having the F/O saying..."told you so."
Perhaps a slightly longer think may be required.
The wise Captain would have a think (what if he is right, even if he has never been before...or, he's to young to know...or, so what, my minds made up, going anyway, etc).
Hard to explain those big dents in the leading edge you received from hail to the Chief Pilot....and having the F/O saying..."told you so."
Perhaps a slightly longer think may be required.
It is very tempting to second-guess others' decisions if we were not there, but as 411A, JW411 and others put it, if someone voices a concern, no matter what the latest wind reports is, there might be something nasty enough to scare the passengers and FAs, even if it results in just moderate turbulence-or much worse. How about also asking Tower or Dep. Control to check with the previous crew about what it was like? If our decision is to takeoff or land no matter what anybody says or reports, then all the theory we learned about systems, second segment climbs etc does us no good at all. To hell with the phrase "female intuition": if we listen to ours and it keeps us out of trouble, then they can call it anything they want, whatever the soundbyte. Interesting studies began several years ago about cultural effects on decision-making in the cockpit and CRM-that is, whether CRM is possible in many areas of the world. CRM was invented by people in the US and western Europe, "inspired" partly by a DC-8 crash in Portland, OR.
No matter what our company limitations say, combining very gusty winds with a wet runway and/or a chance of a microburst can result in far more than what the engine/aircraft combination can handle. I recently broke off an approach in which the quartering headwind gusted to about 30 knots on a wet runway and fairly thick rain. No traffic was ahead to report anything, but on the next approach just a few minutes later, a corporate jet relayed info and the shower had passed. This is one thing that reserve/contingency fuel is for.
The inbound L-1011 which crashed years ago by the fuel storage tanks at DFW never received the latest wind/turbulence reports, due to a communication gap between approach controllers with a shift change. The CVR had a segment in which the FE stated that his knees were knocking together or legs were shaking, or some such strange confession (very rare for any pilot to admit to, except after landing on an aircraft carrier at night), while they were inbound to the blob on radar, and due to what, the rough ride, strong rain, hail or vertical gusts-more than one?! From what I remember, the cell on radar was either not very large or did not appear very strong, with clear contours. I've heard the tape in recurrent tng. In our US system, all of these guys were experienced pilots, even if one were fairly new. And did the pilots in front understand what he said? Last night, a CRJ made a "pirep" for severe turbulence during final approach less than two miles from a runway here , and maybe it was over before they decided that a go-around was needed (+ and - 25 kts airspeed!!). Luckily the tower controller quickly decided to "turn the airport around" and let traffic land to the north, with weather cells just to the north and west.
No matter what our company limitations say, combining very gusty winds with a wet runway and/or a chance of a microburst can result in far more than what the engine/aircraft combination can handle. I recently broke off an approach in which the quartering headwind gusted to about 30 knots on a wet runway and fairly thick rain. No traffic was ahead to report anything, but on the next approach just a few minutes later, a corporate jet relayed info and the shower had passed. This is one thing that reserve/contingency fuel is for.
The inbound L-1011 which crashed years ago by the fuel storage tanks at DFW never received the latest wind/turbulence reports, due to a communication gap between approach controllers with a shift change. The CVR had a segment in which the FE stated that his knees were knocking together or legs were shaking, or some such strange confession (very rare for any pilot to admit to, except after landing on an aircraft carrier at night), while they were inbound to the blob on radar, and due to what, the rough ride, strong rain, hail or vertical gusts-more than one?! From what I remember, the cell on radar was either not very large or did not appear very strong, with clear contours. I've heard the tape in recurrent tng. In our US system, all of these guys were experienced pilots, even if one were fairly new. And did the pilots in front understand what he said? Last night, a CRJ made a "pirep" for severe turbulence during final approach less than two miles from a runway here , and maybe it was over before they decided that a go-around was needed (+ and - 25 kts airspeed!!). Luckily the tower controller quickly decided to "turn the airport around" and let traffic land to the north, with weather cells just to the north and west.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 18th May 2003 at 12:43.
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fireflybob: My father ... always told me that you are much better off down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here ...
Thread Starter
Tan:
You are quite right, I was not on either of the flight decks. If I had been present then the parking brake would not have been released.
Perhaps I should explain that looking at what makes pilots tick is what I am paid for. I take pilots right through the simulator course from Ex.1 up to and including LST (Type Rating). I conduct Proficiency checks (OPC/LPC) and teach LOFT.
In the aircraft, I conduct Base Training, Line Training and Line Checks. I am constantly looking at the decision making process and trying to understand it and hopefully point pilots in the right direction.
There was no way that yesterday's Cb in question could have been avoided. It was right off the upwind end of the runway.
Now I have no responsibility for the crews concerned yesterday but we did have a very similar scenario at our base quite recently. Not one of our company pilots went flying and departures ceased for about 20 minutes. Had one of them done so, I would have been interested in hearing why taking on what I consider to be totally unquantifiable problems is better than being 20 minutes late.
You are quite right, I was not on either of the flight decks. If I had been present then the parking brake would not have been released.
Perhaps I should explain that looking at what makes pilots tick is what I am paid for. I take pilots right through the simulator course from Ex.1 up to and including LST (Type Rating). I conduct Proficiency checks (OPC/LPC) and teach LOFT.
In the aircraft, I conduct Base Training, Line Training and Line Checks. I am constantly looking at the decision making process and trying to understand it and hopefully point pilots in the right direction.
There was no way that yesterday's Cb in question could have been avoided. It was right off the upwind end of the runway.
Now I have no responsibility for the crews concerned yesterday but we did have a very similar scenario at our base quite recently. Not one of our company pilots went flying and departures ceased for about 20 minutes. Had one of them done so, I would have been interested in hearing why taking on what I consider to be totally unquantifiable problems is better than being 20 minutes late.
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Back in September 94 I was sitting on an MD90 at La Guardia for 2 hours whilst the airport was shutdown for storms to pass.
Seemed to me from what the FO was telling us was that the airfield was closed for Take Offs at least. Occasionally the runway would open and someone would depart, I guess as ATC saw fit.
Even if we chose to go I don't think ATC would have let us.
Seemed to me from what the FO was telling us was that the airfield was closed for Take Offs at least. Occasionally the runway would open and someone would depart, I guess as ATC saw fit.
Even if we chose to go I don't think ATC would have let us.
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As an ATCO, albeit a military one, I find it hard to believe that ATC would stop an aircraft from departing against the captain's wishes. We've had a fair amount of bad wx out here in the last few months, together with some fairly intensive ops. I've had no problem with aircraft lining up, taking a look at the storm ahead and saying "I think we'll just sit here for a bit". Ok so it totally knackers my carefully planned integration of deps and arr (Yes we do sometimes have a plan) but it's his decision. Likewise if the captain elects to depart, I would certainly pass on any relevant info from the metman or previous deps but I can't envisage a situation where I would not let him depart. Is it the case that in the civ world the airport operators can decide what's best for aircrew?