Co-pilot saves the day!!!
You have various other crewmembers already on your plane. In an emergency situation (for the very sick person), you can and should do whatever you want, if necessary.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 8th May 2003 at 13:56.
Only half a speed-brake
Just arrived from SIM, guess what was the last task at hand. Sure you're right. Me sweating over ZRH while the skipper enjoyed outside view and loving care by CA. With skill check due tomorrow I do get this funny feeling that
a) he's gonna be there flying again the-day-after-stroke
b) he'll be forced to let me land her again.
I could use a buck for a mortgage, is there by any chance a decent tabloid still looking for Mondays headline? Live coverage available. And we communist folks do get around cheap, just like our airlines, you know.
Dear, what a story! 
Congratulations for a job well done and wishes for a speedy recovery form Prague!
a) he's gonna be there flying again the-day-after-stroke
b) he'll be forced to let me land her again.
I could use a buck for a mortgage, is there by any chance a decent tabloid still looking for Mondays headline? Live coverage available. And we communist folks do get around cheap, just like our airlines, you know.
Dear, what a story! Congratulations for a job well done and wishes for a speedy recovery form Prague!
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Was fortunate enough to take the jumpseat recently on what was a command training flight with training cpt in right seat and co-pilot in the left performing as captain.
Throughout the flight the training cpt made several intentional mistakes, and it was interesting to see just how much the stress level could rise, e.g flight director switched off just after take off, FMC "broken" at top of climb,(and u/s for remainder of flight) "autobrake set" (to "0" ) for landing....
On the return flight nothing "happened" until the landing checklist was called for, after calling for it twice the only response from the RHS was "I'm dead", all in all an interesting days flying.
Throughout the flight the training cpt made several intentional mistakes, and it was interesting to see just how much the stress level could rise, e.g flight director switched off just after take off, FMC "broken" at top of climb,(and u/s for remainder of flight) "autobrake set" (to "0" ) for landing....
On the return flight nothing "happened" until the landing checklist was called for, after calling for it twice the only response from the RHS was "I'm dead", all in all an interesting days flying.
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Frosty Hoar
Slightly surprised to see such training methods used on a revenue flight. In general a command course would be used to train a potential captain in the standard operation.
As any deviation from the standard operation has an adverse affect on safety, non standard operations normally take place in the simulator - that's what it is there for.
Slightly surprised to see such training methods used on a revenue flight. In general a command course would be used to train a potential captain in the standard operation.
As any deviation from the standard operation has an adverse affect on safety, non standard operations normally take place in the simulator - that's what it is there for.
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For all the non-pilots reading, hopefully of use........
There's and enourmous difference, in terms of skill and decision-making ability/experience, between the brand new F/O as opposed to the experienced F/O waiting for the next command vacancy.
There can be an enourmous difference between operating an aircraft with many carried-forward defects and operating one with no defects.
There's an enourmous difference between operating an aircraft into difficult airfields in bad weather and operating into easy airfields in good weather.
There's an enourmous difference in the workload between different aircraft types.
There's an enourmous difference in the cabin crew's ability from one to the next.
Starting with the assumption that the Captain is incapacitated, work out your own combination. You could, possibly, dream up a non-event or, alternatively, a script for an "interesting" movie !
If the F/O in question had the worst of all of the above, then I congratulate him/her.
(PS - I strongly agree with Budgie69's comments regarding line training flights, but that's just IMHO.)
There's and enourmous difference, in terms of skill and decision-making ability/experience, between the brand new F/O as opposed to the experienced F/O waiting for the next command vacancy.
There can be an enourmous difference between operating an aircraft with many carried-forward defects and operating one with no defects.
There's an enourmous difference between operating an aircraft into difficult airfields in bad weather and operating into easy airfields in good weather.
There's an enourmous difference in the workload between different aircraft types.
There's an enourmous difference in the cabin crew's ability from one to the next.
Starting with the assumption that the Captain is incapacitated, work out your own combination. You could, possibly, dream up a non-event or, alternatively, a script for an "interesting" movie !
If the F/O in question had the worst of all of the above, then I congratulate him/her.
(PS - I strongly agree with Budgie69's comments regarding line training flights, but that's just IMHO.)
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Revised version of the original story...
"...One passenger, when interviewed, stated that he heard muffled cries of anguish before the cockpit door opened. The co-pilot emerged imploring the cabin attendant to 'help me get this fat bastard out of my seat!' The door then closed and the rest is history..."
Actually, I really think co-pilots are a necessary evil(the ******s are always hogging the FA's!). I may change my mind on that after my displacement next week, however...
TC
Actually, I really think co-pilots are a necessary evil(the ******s are always hogging the FA's!). I may change my mind on that after my displacement next week, however...
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T-Richard
Don't fall for the 'co-pilot' label. We are all qualified with the same licence. How many bars you have on your shoulder is simply a matter of company seniority. I've changed companies a couple of times and am currently 'only' an FO (or co-pilot as the media would have it) yet I have flown with Captains who have fewer hours than I have, but have been with the company longer.
We generally refer to the 'pilot flying' and 'pilot not flying' when splitting duties on the flight deck, each has well-defined responsibilities, although on some aircraft only the left-hand seat occupant can steer the aircraft on the ground.
Don't fall for the 'co-pilot' label. We are all qualified with the same licence. How many bars you have on your shoulder is simply a matter of company seniority. I've changed companies a couple of times and am currently 'only' an FO (or co-pilot as the media would have it) yet I have flown with Captains who have fewer hours than I have, but have been with the company longer.
We generally refer to the 'pilot flying' and 'pilot not flying' when splitting duties on the flight deck, each has well-defined responsibilities, although on some aircraft only the left-hand seat occupant can steer the aircraft on the ground.
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Don't fall for the 'co-pilot' label. We are all qualified with the same licence. How many bars you have on your shoulder is simply a matter of company seniority.
It is a massive oversimplification.
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Thank you Hugofirst for clarifying the implied distinction for me. I was beginning to think I had asked a question on the order of...."We could tell you but then we'd have to kill you"..... I appreciate your kindness
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Anthony Carn
I don't see why you think it's a "massive oversimplification" I've got an ATPL with the required aircraft type rating, so has the other guy. Either one of us is capable of handling the aircraft.
I know of experienced captains who have left one airline to join another as an FO, for more money and better conditions. You don't suddenly lose your skills or experience just because you are sitting in the right hand seat.
Hugo
I don't see why you think it's a "massive oversimplification" I've got an ATPL with the required aircraft type rating, so has the other guy. Either one of us is capable of handling the aircraft.
I know of experienced captains who have left one airline to join another as an FO, for more money and better conditions. You don't suddenly lose your skills or experience just because you are sitting in the right hand seat.
Hugo
Well Hugo as a fairly experienced Captain who was once a fairly experienced F/O I have to agree with Mr Carn, you may be able to fly the aircraft as well as, perhaps better than, the other guy but there is a big difference between sitting in the left seat and the right.
It's not rocket science by any means but I am sure that any recently promoted Captain would confirm that the two jobs, whilst outwardly similar, make quite different demands on you. At the end of the day airlines don't pay skippers £20,000 a year more to do the same job.
Sounds like the Air2000 F/O did a good job, not as easy as it appears to be suddenly flying solo and in command of an airline jet with 200+ pax. and 7-8 crew on board. Don't think I would have come clean about the problem until we where on the ground but that's window dressing really.
It's not rocket science by any means but I am sure that any recently promoted Captain would confirm that the two jobs, whilst outwardly similar, make quite different demands on you. At the end of the day airlines don't pay skippers £20,000 a year more to do the same job.
Sounds like the Air2000 F/O did a good job, not as easy as it appears to be suddenly flying solo and in command of an airline jet with 200+ pax. and 7-8 crew on board. Don't think I would have come clean about the problem until we where on the ground but that's window dressing really.
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Tch planks!
In the rotary offshore(have to work for a living) the majority of the time there is no option as to who's landing it is. Imagine the joy of the line training Capt. who realises it's the brand new, just relased to the line Co's landing on a semi-sub(non-fixed platform) with full limits (3 degrees pitch and roll and 5 metre heave) let alone sixty knots with sleet. Passengers with prayers. Fixed wing
folk have it easy. Not that I'd change for anything. Fair play to the Co and all's well to the Capt.
folk have it easy. Not that I'd change for anything. Fair play to the Co and all's well to the Capt.
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HugoFirst
Are you seriously trying to suggest that competence in the basic flying of the aeroplane on which you are rated constitutes complete mastery of it's overall operation ?
The basic aircraft handling side of the job is a minor component of the entire task (at least, if you're trying to do it properly, it is !). It's taken as read that anyone in either seat can at least cope with basic aircraft handling !
When a Captain becomes incapacitated, it's correct decision making, thinking ahead, planning, communicating, monitoring etc. etc. etc. that "saves the day".
(but I always try to remember the priorities - Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, in order of decreasing importance).
Are you seriously trying to suggest that competence in the basic flying of the aeroplane on which you are rated constitutes complete mastery of it's overall operation ?
The basic aircraft handling side of the job is a minor component of the entire task (at least, if you're trying to do it properly, it is !). It's taken as read that anyone in either seat can at least cope with basic aircraft handling !
When a Captain becomes incapacitated, it's correct decision making, thinking ahead, planning, communicating, monitoring etc. etc. etc. that "saves the day".
(but I always try to remember the priorities - Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, in order of decreasing importance).
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Captain incapacitation is easily handled by using the appropriate checklist.
Look for credit cards and cash
Obtain pin numbers
Check seniority improvement
Tell the girls who is incharge now
Fly the airplane as it was always meant to be flown
easy, really
Look for credit cards and cash
Obtain pin numbers
Check seniority improvement
Tell the girls who is incharge now
Fly the airplane as it was always meant to be flown
easy, really
Mr. Carn: That was a good description of contrasting situations.
Does the familiar mantra of "automation, automation", seem to be, at least in the eyes of the media and naiive public, an adequate substitute for experience, judgement and years of training. In addition, hundreds of mainline jets here have almost no automation, which multiplies the workload, even in good weather.
Off the topic a bit, but was the Airbus concept of combining the highest levels of automation intended mostly to appeal to airlines which wanted to let certain extra functions compensate for limited levels of hands-on ("handling")experience?
We just came in from seeing a really good movie, "Bend it Like Beckham", and the British lingo is beginning to make more sense.
Does the familiar mantra of "automation, automation", seem to be, at least in the eyes of the media and naiive public, an adequate substitute for experience, judgement and years of training. In addition, hundreds of mainline jets here have almost no automation, which multiplies the workload, even in good weather.
Off the topic a bit, but was the Airbus concept of combining the highest levels of automation intended mostly to appeal to airlines which wanted to let certain extra functions compensate for limited levels of hands-on ("handling")experience?
We just came in from seeing a really good movie, "Bend it Like Beckham", and the British lingo is beginning to make more sense.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 29th Apr 2003 at 12:09.
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Not sure how much weight it carries with some operators these days but actually passing a Command Course identified one of the differences between Captain and First Officer.
Basic requirements for selection were, qualification, (licence and type rating), experience, (at least the minimum number of hours required for a Command on appropriate types and in appropriate areas of operation), and suitability, (considered by the company to be ready for promotion based on seniority, attitude and demonstrated competence).
I think that to suggest that the only difference between Captain and Co-Pilot is seniority is to gloss over some rather significant hurdles that have been the downfall of quite a few aspirants in the past. Anthony Carn and Max Angle have, I think, nailed it in one.
Basic requirements for selection were, qualification, (licence and type rating), experience, (at least the minimum number of hours required for a Command on appropriate types and in appropriate areas of operation), and suitability, (considered by the company to be ready for promotion based on seniority, attitude and demonstrated competence).
I think that to suggest that the only difference between Captain and Co-Pilot is seniority is to gloss over some rather significant hurdles that have been the downfall of quite a few aspirants in the past. Anthony Carn and Max Angle have, I think, nailed it in one.
As SLF, I'd be far more worried about how the poor guy who was sick was than the competence of the F/O - I take it for granted that the F/O has been trained to handle the situation.
Though I was told that the captain gets the credit for good landings and blames the F/O for the bouncy ones!
Though I was told that the captain gets the credit for good landings and blames the F/O for the bouncy ones!