Co-pilot saves the day!!!
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A Carn and Max Angle
The point I was making (and the question I was answering) is that in an incapacitated pilot scenario it is an aircraft handling problem. The original newspaper report implied that the FO somehow managed to get the thing on the ground in one piece through sheer luck.
This would also imply that if it had been the FO incapacitated, there wouldn't have been a problem. The days of the Captain being a demi-god and anyone else being a mere underling are long gone. You both know the workload on the flight deck - which is why MCC and CRM were developed.
That's also why we practise incapacitation drills in the sim, the workload doesn't decrease just because you're sitting on the left.
Hugo
. . . oh, and yes, I have done a command course and reached the dizzy heights of Captain with the last lot I was with, just happen to be working for a much more civilised bunch now . . . and in line for the next Captain's vacancy.
The point I was making (and the question I was answering) is that in an incapacitated pilot scenario it is an aircraft handling problem. The original newspaper report implied that the FO somehow managed to get the thing on the ground in one piece through sheer luck.
This would also imply that if it had been the FO incapacitated, there wouldn't have been a problem. The days of the Captain being a demi-god and anyone else being a mere underling are long gone. You both know the workload on the flight deck - which is why MCC and CRM were developed.
That's also why we practise incapacitation drills in the sim, the workload doesn't decrease just because you're sitting on the left.
Hugo
. . . oh, and yes, I have done a command course and reached the dizzy heights of Captain with the last lot I was with, just happen to be working for a much more civilised bunch now . . . and in line for the next Captain's vacancy.
I'matightbastard
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The dog thing was from an old joke
The co-pilot's there to make sure the pilot doesn't touch anything, the dog's there to make sure the co-pilot doesn't touch anything and the pilot's there to pet the dog...something like that anyway.
Anyone help me here?
The co-pilot's there to make sure the pilot doesn't touch anything, the dog's there to make sure the co-pilot doesn't touch anything and the pilot's there to pet the dog...something like that anyway.
Anyone help me here?
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As I remember, in my old days as an F/O, the dream of an F/O was that his captain gets sick and he becomes the pilot in command, having an F/E was helping, but not necessary, and having bad weather to "conquer", usually high crosswinds, and him, alone, to make the landing, without the gay in the left seat to tell him what exactly were the right moves!
But then again, that was the old days! I don’t suppose that the F/Os nowadays think this way, or aren’t they?
But then again, that was the old days! I don’t suppose that the F/Os nowadays think this way, or aren’t they?
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Max Angle,
When you say that you would keep quiet about your problem until you were on the ground, I can't help but feel disappointed with your attitude.Smells like a combination of "Press on-itus" and lack of trust in your colleagues ability. I hope to god I never fly with you as a pax or a crew member.
When you say that you would keep quiet about your problem until you were on the ground, I can't help but feel disappointed with your attitude.Smells like a combination of "Press on-itus" and lack of trust in your colleagues ability. I hope to god I never fly with you as a pax or a crew member.
I'matightbastard
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Pontius,
I was on a flight once when we did a go around. It turned out they hadn't got all three greens, so they did a wide circuit, came in and landed. Nothing major really, but you should have seen the commotion in the back. There was much wailing, gnashing of teeth and renting of garments (and the returning thereof to the store by Monday morning). It was a truly horrible sight and one I hope never to see again.
I thought the gear malfunction was no big deal, but the pax reaction scared the p1ss out of me.
It was possible equipment failure so they had to say something to get people in the mood for evac, but with a dead Captain, I'd really rather they didn't tell the pax if it would cause all that fuss.
I was on a flight once when we did a go around. It turned out they hadn't got all three greens, so they did a wide circuit, came in and landed. Nothing major really, but you should have seen the commotion in the back. There was much wailing, gnashing of teeth and renting of garments (and the returning thereof to the store by Monday morning). It was a truly horrible sight and one I hope never to see again.
I thought the gear malfunction was no big deal, but the pax reaction scared the p1ss out of me.
It was possible equipment failure so they had to say something to get people in the mood for evac, but with a dead Captain, I'd really rather they didn't tell the pax if it would cause all that fuss.
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A thought just occured to me - with this new locked cockpit door procedure, how does one go about letting the Dollies in to help your passed out partner in crime - presumably you just leave it on auto pilot, tell atc you'll be back in a minute having had a good look at the TCAS first and hope you don't incapacitate yourself climbing over the cheese tray?
What would happen these days if (god forbid) there was a similar incident to the BA 11-1 that lost its front windshield and the captain was sucked half out the cockpit, had the cabin crew not acted so quickly, he probably would have lost his life, but with the delay in getting things "sorted" enough so that you can let the cabin crew in, you might have a man overboard before help arrives (I know that procedures have changed etc, and the chance of something like this happening again is extremely remote, but what if?)???
BigAir
What would happen these days if (god forbid) there was a similar incident to the BA 11-1 that lost its front windshield and the captain was sucked half out the cockpit, had the cabin crew not acted so quickly, he probably would have lost his life, but with the delay in getting things "sorted" enough so that you can let the cabin crew in, you might have a man overboard before help arrives (I know that procedures have changed etc, and the chance of something like this happening again is extremely remote, but what if?)???
BigAir
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copilot saves the day
Onan,
I believe the joke goes that soon there will be just a pilot and a dog in the cockpit........ the pilot's job will be to monitor the automation and the dog's job will be to bite the pilot's hand should he touch anything..........
I believe the joke goes that soon there will be just a pilot and a dog in the cockpit........ the pilot's job will be to monitor the automation and the dog's job will be to bite the pilot's hand should he touch anything..........
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No joke
I was on a United Airbus jumpseat a few years ago and we were talking about the automation...
The Capt speculated that one day the FO (generally speaking) would be required to occupy his seat for the take off and landing but during cruise he'd have to go back and help the flight attendants with the beverage service...
He never mentioned dogs, but man those UAL FAs...
...let's just say they're pushy, pushy, pushy.
The Capt speculated that one day the FO (generally speaking) would be required to occupy his seat for the take off and landing but during cruise he'd have to go back and help the flight attendants with the beverage service...
He never mentioned dogs, but man those UAL FAs...
...let's just say they're pushy, pushy, pushy.
Pontious.
I think you have the wrong end of stick old chap.
What I mean't, as I am sure most people reading my post realised, was that had I been the F/O involved I would have been a little bit economical with the truth about what was going on until we had landed. That said, it's quite possible that the front 5-6 rows had seen the whole thing transpire in which case you have to say something that makes sense to them. You can't very well say that there is no problem when the skipper is flat out on the galley floor. If however he was still in his seat but just out of it I would have told the pax. nothing at all until after landing.
I think you have the wrong end of stick old chap.
What I mean't, as I am sure most people reading my post realised, was that had I been the F/O involved I would have been a little bit economical with the truth about what was going on until we had landed. That said, it's quite possible that the front 5-6 rows had seen the whole thing transpire in which case you have to say something that makes sense to them. You can't very well say that there is no problem when the skipper is flat out on the galley floor. If however he was still in his seat but just out of it I would have told the pax. nothing at all until after landing.
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Just my opinion.......FWIW..........
When/when not to make an address to the passengers and deciding upon the ammount of detail can be extremely difficult to decide upon.
Being brutally honest is the easiest option ; no brain needed, but may induce panic.
Being "economical" with the facts reduces the chances of panic, but may backfire if it's discovered that the "economy" is later interpreted as lying. At best, confusion will reign. At worst, panic may ensue, plus a distrust of any further statements or instructions from you.
The difficulty lies in striking a balance. If there was a problem and I felt it necessary to inform the passengers, then I always opted for "reassuring honesty", for want of a better phrase. I definitely never would lie.
Two additional problems ----
Trying to sound calm is essential, but if you're in a bit of a "tizz" yourself (pilots are human beings BTW), then it may be better to keep quiet or delegate. Delegate = to cabin crew, which, from experience, can lead to problems in the translation.
This may sound ridiculous, but it's a sweeping assumption that that the lone pilot has enough time and spare brain capacity to actually fit an announcement into the whole process. If you're a pilot, remember those simulator sessions and you'll maybe agree. If you're not, then I doubt that, with respect, you can appreciate the sheer workload in some situations. If nothing else in this ramble, I hope that I've conveyed an understanding of the potential for truly huge workload. That's when I remind myself of the phrase I used in an earlier post - Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. It reminds me of the priorities. Note how Communicate - radio calls (to ATC and Company and from weather/status broadcasts) and passenger address comes last !
Glad to hear from anyone who disagrees. Always keen to learn !
Sorry to ramble on, but this is interesting stuff, especially some of the comments from the non-pilots.
When/when not to make an address to the passengers and deciding upon the ammount of detail can be extremely difficult to decide upon.
Being brutally honest is the easiest option ; no brain needed, but may induce panic.
Being "economical" with the facts reduces the chances of panic, but may backfire if it's discovered that the "economy" is later interpreted as lying. At best, confusion will reign. At worst, panic may ensue, plus a distrust of any further statements or instructions from you.
The difficulty lies in striking a balance. If there was a problem and I felt it necessary to inform the passengers, then I always opted for "reassuring honesty", for want of a better phrase. I definitely never would lie.
Two additional problems ----
Trying to sound calm is essential, but if you're in a bit of a "tizz" yourself (pilots are human beings BTW), then it may be better to keep quiet or delegate. Delegate = to cabin crew, which, from experience, can lead to problems in the translation.
This may sound ridiculous, but it's a sweeping assumption that that the lone pilot has enough time and spare brain capacity to actually fit an announcement into the whole process. If you're a pilot, remember those simulator sessions and you'll maybe agree. If you're not, then I doubt that, with respect, you can appreciate the sheer workload in some situations. If nothing else in this ramble, I hope that I've conveyed an understanding of the potential for truly huge workload. That's when I remind myself of the phrase I used in an earlier post - Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. It reminds me of the priorities. Note how Communicate - radio calls (to ATC and Company and from weather/status broadcasts) and passenger address comes last !
Glad to hear from anyone who disagrees. Always keen to learn !
Sorry to ramble on, but this is interesting stuff, especially some of the comments from the non-pilots.
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Big Air - Its not an issue with Phase 2 doors. As far as a/c fitted with phase 1 and the bac1-11 incident, the CAA reckon its less likely than a cockpit incursion, so we're safer with the doors than without. Its all a balancing act, safety-wise.
As for telling the pax, if they didnt know or suspect, I probably wouldnt tell them. Why bother, it makes no difference to the outcome and after being fed on a diet of headlines like this one they might well feel unsafe. Having said that, I certainlly dont feel critical of the FO in this case - who it sounds like did a professional job.
As for telling the pax, if they didnt know or suspect, I probably wouldnt tell them. Why bother, it makes no difference to the outcome and after being fed on a diet of headlines like this one they might well feel unsafe. Having said that, I certainlly dont feel critical of the FO in this case - who it sounds like did a professional job.
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Many of the captains at my Major US carrier where my FO in another life. Some I checked out as captain...in another life.
Seven airlines under my belt with 20 thousand plus hours (mostly PIC) CO-PILOT.
I still get a kick out of captains trying to teach me to fly.
Seniority...it seems unfair to have a more experienced PILOT as SIC.
We in the airline business accept it but it burns me when the average bear thinks the FO is a rookie.
Seven airlines under my belt with 20 thousand plus hours (mostly PIC) CO-PILOT.
I still get a kick out of captains trying to teach me to fly.
Seniority...it seems unfair to have a more experienced PILOT as SIC.
We in the airline business accept it but it burns me when the average bear thinks the FO is a rookie.
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Bushpilot,
That's probably pretty irrelevant as this has gone so way off thread. We all know that co-pilots are trained to operate the aircraft single-handedly and there is no doubt he did that! (Though an experienced F/O will obviously be sweating a little less than a 'rookie' just off line training.)
He's probably had a good laugh at this thread!
That's probably pretty irrelevant as this has gone so way off thread. We all know that co-pilots are trained to operate the aircraft single-handedly and there is no doubt he did that! (Though an experienced F/O will obviously be sweating a little less than a 'rookie' just off line training.)
He's probably had a good laugh at this thread!