Funchal wind limits
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Funchal wind limits
Just got back from Funchal (Madeira) where the wind was in but mainly out of limits all day.
Why is it only the UK airlines that operate within these limits?
Two 757's on the ground unable to depart - numerous others diverted to PXO. At least 3 go-arounds, yet the Portuguese (Air Portugal, Luxor and Azores) just come and go with complete contempt for the limits. Gusts of 35kts at the Tower and Rosario - no problem, (the limit is 25kts), off they go.
ATC said all operations outside limits are reported to the authorities but that didn't stop them. Even Condor took-off with the gust given of 33kts.
These limits are presumably there for safety reasons, so what happens to the violators?
Why is it only the UK airlines that operate within these limits?
Two 757's on the ground unable to depart - numerous others diverted to PXO. At least 3 go-arounds, yet the Portuguese (Air Portugal, Luxor and Azores) just come and go with complete contempt for the limits. Gusts of 35kts at the Tower and Rosario - no problem, (the limit is 25kts), off they go.
ATC said all operations outside limits are reported to the authorities but that didn't stop them. Even Condor took-off with the gust given of 33kts.
These limits are presumably there for safety reasons, so what happens to the violators?
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Many,many times I have diverted to PXO,or LIS due to the strong winds in FNC,and still when I arrive there to my surprise,only the British Charters have operated normally(You can not say either the Portuguese or German Airlines are different!!!)
It is well known that sometimes there is a "calm" in the wind intensity that allows 1 or 2 planes to land or take-off...it has been so for years,and so it will continue.
Actually TAP Air Portugal is very critisised in Madeira for not operating many times while the Charters are landing and taking off as they please...please do not see this as a critic,as I quite know that in FNC is a "difficult" operation,and winds can be quite unpredictable.
It is well known that sometimes there is a "calm" in the wind intensity that allows 1 or 2 planes to land or take-off...it has been so for years,and so it will continue.
Actually TAP Air Portugal is very critisised in Madeira for not operating many times while the Charters are landing and taking off as they please...please do not see this as a critic,as I quite know that in FNC is a "difficult" operation,and winds can be quite unpredictable.
Silver,FYI I worked for one of the companies that you listed as ignoring the wind rules and I can put you straight on this matter Luxor operated to the letter of the rules and never and I repeat never went outside them when I was operating for them. Is this just another winge from someone that does not understand the rules, we did and operating into the place on an almost daily basis the crews were experienced and aware of the rules so I suggest you think again before opening your mouth and casting doubt on the integrity of other operators.
Join Date: Dec 2002
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I can agree with what Silvershadow is saying. After working at the airport in Funchal for 3 months, I have seen this kinda thing happen time after time.
I remember one day in particular where the British charters were diverting to TFN, TFS, LIS, FAO and PXO, but the TAP guys were just coming and going as normal. I will say tho that Luxor were one of the companies that were diverting.
Its just a normal day in Madeira!
I remember one day in particular where the British charters were diverting to TFN, TFS, LIS, FAO and PXO, but the TAP guys were just coming and going as normal. I will say tho that Luxor were one of the companies that were diverting.
Its just a normal day in Madeira!
short flights long nights
Thats interesting. I was never aware that it was a requirment to be over endowed in the testicle area to operate into FNC, I actually have always thoght that being careful and safe was the answer. Stupid me!!!!!
Join Date: Oct 2001
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What happens to the violators????????
Nothing!!!!!!!!
The question is, there as been for ever a great disagreement between the portuguese airline pilot association and the portuguese aviation authorities (INAC) about the wind limits.
Those limits have been imposed since the TAP accident there in 1974. There has never been a serious study about the wind limits and their effect... as there has been made in Gibraltar and Salzburg and Innsbruck. Also the INAC refuses to order the airport to be closed to all traffic, when winds are out of limit leaving that decision to the PIC. Also what you read from the AIP is ambiguous and doesn`t state minimus for dispatch, as all airports around the world subject to minimums higher than standard and non-normal operations!
Those who operate in Funchal for several years, know by their own experience, when a safe landing can be acomplished or not! indenpedently from winds!
So, if TAP, Luxor and SATA were landing on that day! So could you!
Once I went around TWR was reporting a 10Kt headwind and at 100ft we had 35 Kts tailwind.
Cheers!
Nothing!!!!!!!!
The question is, there as been for ever a great disagreement between the portuguese airline pilot association and the portuguese aviation authorities (INAC) about the wind limits.
Those limits have been imposed since the TAP accident there in 1974. There has never been a serious study about the wind limits and their effect... as there has been made in Gibraltar and Salzburg and Innsbruck. Also the INAC refuses to order the airport to be closed to all traffic, when winds are out of limit leaving that decision to the PIC. Also what you read from the AIP is ambiguous and doesn`t state minimus for dispatch, as all airports around the world subject to minimums higher than standard and non-normal operations!
Those who operate in Funchal for several years, know by their own experience, when a safe landing can be acomplished or not! indenpedently from winds!
So, if TAP, Luxor and SATA were landing on that day! So could you!
Once I went around TWR was reporting a 10Kt headwind and at 100ft we had 35 Kts tailwind.
Cheers!
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Folks,
I do fly into FNC as well, and as far as I am concerned, I do not bust wind limits and never heard someone from my company doing it as well. It is not a question of- " I am the hot shot and I ain`t no limits"!!- rather than, if you you wreck the damn thing and it was outside the limits- IT`S YOU hanging on your balls,bcause the insurance won`t pay,your licence will be suspended and so on...! That`s the point !
I do fly into FNC as well, and as far as I am concerned, I do not bust wind limits and never heard someone from my company doing it as well. It is not a question of- " I am the hot shot and I ain`t no limits"!!- rather than, if you you wreck the damn thing and it was outside the limits- IT`S YOU hanging on your balls,bcause the insurance won`t pay,your licence will be suspended and so on...! That`s the point !
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If in our airline you land beyond the wind limits at FNC you will be invited for Tea & Biscuits with the Chief Pilot, even when every other airline is landing.........
Why should you take the risk??? Just divert and have a happy day!
Why should you take the risk??? Just divert and have a happy day!
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I didn't think that the W/V ever exceeded the limits at FNC.
Every time I went in there the Windsocks were pointing at each other actually sticking straight OUT:
Component Zero!
Every time I went in there the Windsocks were pointing at each other actually sticking straight OUT:
Component Zero!
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I operate into FNC quite often and have seen plenty of good days, bad days, and diversions.
The control tower knows exactly what the limits are. I beleive they use averaged wind over two minutes rather than instantaneous readings in the tower. If the tower says the wind is xxx/xx it means that as far as he is concerned you can try a landing. If he says 'xxx/xx what are your intentions', it means that if you land you will be reported to Portuguese CAA.
On days when the wind is obviously way outside limits, like most others , I go immediately to the diversion (PXO) and wait for an improvement, or possibly stay in the Instrument Hold Pattern at medium altitude. If there might be a chance of getting in, I fly around the visual circuit for as long as it takes to get in to land or to drop to diversion fuel. If the warning phrase ( while down wind) is given ,ie 'what are your intentions' I either say that I am staying in the pattern until conditions improve, or I put the gear down, continue the approach and ask for a wind check again on finals. If it is still outside the airport limit he will say 'clear to land wind xxx/xx what are your intentions.' It would be wise to go around.
I agree with the others who say that it is the wind and weather that dictates who gets in. It is pure chance. Obviuosly, if some pilots choose to give up before others that is their problem. TAP are definately not cowboys, but they do have the advantage of knowing the airfield better than anyone else. Like others, I have chickened out on approach and diverted when the wind is quoted as being well below the quoted limits. I have landed on days when the wind was on maximum limits, expecting a really rough ride and not heard the windshear for even a brief second.
Also, may I add that I have never been reported bt the tower, or asked to explain my actions to the Chief Pilot ..... yet!
The control tower knows exactly what the limits are. I beleive they use averaged wind over two minutes rather than instantaneous readings in the tower. If the tower says the wind is xxx/xx it means that as far as he is concerned you can try a landing. If he says 'xxx/xx what are your intentions', it means that if you land you will be reported to Portuguese CAA.
On days when the wind is obviously way outside limits, like most others , I go immediately to the diversion (PXO) and wait for an improvement, or possibly stay in the Instrument Hold Pattern at medium altitude. If there might be a chance of getting in, I fly around the visual circuit for as long as it takes to get in to land or to drop to diversion fuel. If the warning phrase ( while down wind) is given ,ie 'what are your intentions' I either say that I am staying in the pattern until conditions improve, or I put the gear down, continue the approach and ask for a wind check again on finals. If it is still outside the airport limit he will say 'clear to land wind xxx/xx what are your intentions.' It would be wise to go around.
I agree with the others who say that it is the wind and weather that dictates who gets in. It is pure chance. Obviuosly, if some pilots choose to give up before others that is their problem. TAP are definately not cowboys, but they do have the advantage of knowing the airfield better than anyone else. Like others, I have chickened out on approach and diverted when the wind is quoted as being well below the quoted limits. I have landed on days when the wind was on maximum limits, expecting a really rough ride and not heard the windshear for even a brief second.
Also, may I add that I have never been reported bt the tower, or asked to explain my actions to the Chief Pilot ..... yet!
Join Date: Apr 1999
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Place scares me fartless on a calm cavok day, so defo would not want the skip to try his and my luck and go for it with wind on or beyond limits. Those unfamiliar I suggest taking a look at this picci !
Runway 23
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=250959
Runway 05
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=297683
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=330175
Runway 23
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=250959
Runway 05
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=297683
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=330175
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I have to go there again on Thursday moring (MAY 1) !
Shed ARR is 0940z - who else from the Pprunerworld will be there ?
We could meet on the ramp(or when it runs bad in PXO) for a coffee break!!!!!!!
See ya on Thursday !!!!!!!!
Shed ARR is 0940z - who else from the Pprunerworld will be there ?
We could meet on the ramp(or when it runs bad in PXO) for a coffee break!!!!!!!
See ya on Thursday !!!!!!!!
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Went down to Funchal today and had a very pleasant day out. Runway in use was 23 and the wind on touchdown was 180 at around 8/9. If you read the preamble in the Aerad pamphlet it actually states that if a landing is made outside of the stated wind limits then a report will be sent to the Portugese authorities. If indeed pilots from certain airlines continue to land in wind exceeding the max values then it is a wonder if a) these reports are made and b)if they are, then the airlines are allowed to continue flying there. These limits are there for a reason namely that Funchal is difficult and dangerous at the best of times. To land outside these limits is plain suicidal. I have had to divert to PXO before due to the wind. Didnt matter, I had a pleasant nightstop and aircraft and pax were safely delivered the following day.
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From an interested observer who has never been to FNC!
When the runway was "developed" recently, how was this done? I know about the platform built over the sea, but was this just a runway extension or was there a re-alignment and other changes at the same time?
Has this development changed any of the limits or made it less of a challenge?
When the runway was "developed" recently, how was this done? I know about the platform built over the sea, but was this just a runway extension or was there a re-alignment and other changes at the same time?
Has this development changed any of the limits or made it less of a challenge?