Funchal wind limits
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 58
Likes: 1
From: UK
I am grateful to DontSink for answering my original query. It seems that local pilots know there is no retribution for operating when the wind is above limits, so they use their own judgement and experience. 
I don't think our CAA quite see it that way so, as quickturnaround says, we would be invited in for a "chat". Not so much of El Peligroso's "Big Balls", more a case of no balls by the time you came out!
I don't think our CAA quite see it that way so, as quickturnaround says, we would be invited in for a "chat". Not so much of El Peligroso's "Big Balls", more a case of no balls by the time you came out!
Scalextric for Men
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 277
Likes: 0
From: Southern England outside the M25
I'm self loading freight
Herself want's to go to Maderia.
Have you graphs/statistics for diversion rates.
She is not the most happy of passengers: windy bumpy?
Where is PXO and how do find out the list of abbreviations of airfields.
Thank you for making interesting reading.
Have you graphs/statistics for diversion rates.
She is not the most happy of passengers: windy bumpy?
Where is PXO and how do find out the list of abbreviations of airfields.
Thank you for making interesting reading.
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: Now back in London
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: Not far from LPPT
Silvershadow,
Being SLF, Portuguese and a FNC native, i have often seen (both in the media and by myself)
the reverse:
The "foreign" carriers operating, and TAP (and other locals) refusing to even depart to or from LPMA.
I have had flights delayed for more than 24 hours. I saw the old terminal with a couple of
thounsand people wainting to get out. I have seen some very annoyed people asking the ground
crew why where "the others" taking off from LPMA and why was TAP refusing to send aircraft
to get them out (people get agitated when they have been wainting for a flight for 2 or 3
days). Sometimes these episodes degenerated into riot.
So, when you state that "It seems that local pilots know there is no retribution for operating
when the wind is above limits, so they use their own judgement and experience." You are beeing
unfair, both to pilots and local authorities. Although experience does help. When those situations
arise before departure, the pilots simply elect not to depart to LPMA, and avoid lengthy diversions
into a small island (PXO) which isn't really equipped to handle a big influx of unplanned "tourists".
In Trim,
The runway was re-aligned, the place where 05 ends had a high rise hotel and some holliday
villas on it. It was previously aligned a bit more to the east.
As for "challenge" i don't (and most probably will never) have an opinion (i'm just a microlight
student), but the local media talked about some unexpected phenomena that was noticed by
aircrew after the new platform was constructed.
Aparently (again reported by local media) a report was comissioned by the airport authority to
some large aviation entity (Airbus?), but i haven't read anything substantial about this.
(Note: "Local Media" as in "regular-non-aviation-press-and-tv")
Capn Notarious
The landings can be quite "interesting", even when the winds are calm. The bank angles on the turn
to final are a bit on the "unusual" side of comercial passenger flights.
Still, i think the scenery is worth those intense minutes.
If you get a diversion to PXO, assuming it's during the summer and you are allowed to leave the
airport, you could try the beach (it's excellent).
If i have got you too scared, you can always try to get a flight to PXO, and get on the ferry to
Funchal (about 2 hours travel). During summer the sea is mostly flat, and it is quite enjoyable.
Regards
CS-DNA
Being SLF, Portuguese and a FNC native, i have often seen (both in the media and by myself)
the reverse:
The "foreign" carriers operating, and TAP (and other locals) refusing to even depart to or from LPMA.
I have had flights delayed for more than 24 hours. I saw the old terminal with a couple of
thounsand people wainting to get out. I have seen some very annoyed people asking the ground
crew why where "the others" taking off from LPMA and why was TAP refusing to send aircraft
to get them out (people get agitated when they have been wainting for a flight for 2 or 3
days). Sometimes these episodes degenerated into riot.
So, when you state that "It seems that local pilots know there is no retribution for operating
when the wind is above limits, so they use their own judgement and experience." You are beeing
unfair, both to pilots and local authorities. Although experience does help. When those situations
arise before departure, the pilots simply elect not to depart to LPMA, and avoid lengthy diversions
into a small island (PXO) which isn't really equipped to handle a big influx of unplanned "tourists".
In Trim,
The runway was re-aligned, the place where 05 ends had a high rise hotel and some holliday
villas on it. It was previously aligned a bit more to the east.
As for "challenge" i don't (and most probably will never) have an opinion (i'm just a microlight
student), but the local media talked about some unexpected phenomena that was noticed by
aircrew after the new platform was constructed.
Aparently (again reported by local media) a report was comissioned by the airport authority to
some large aviation entity (Airbus?), but i haven't read anything substantial about this.
(Note: "Local Media" as in "regular-non-aviation-press-and-tv")
Capn Notarious
The landings can be quite "interesting", even when the winds are calm. The bank angles on the turn
to final are a bit on the "unusual" side of comercial passenger flights.
Still, i think the scenery is worth those intense minutes.
If you get a diversion to PXO, assuming it's during the summer and you are allowed to leave the
airport, you could try the beach (it's excellent).
If i have got you too scared, you can always try to get a flight to PXO, and get on the ferry to
Funchal (about 2 hours travel). During summer the sea is mostly flat, and it is quite enjoyable.
Regards
CS-DNA
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 108
Likes: 1
From: ATLANTIS
Indeed Madeira is NOT the only airport where wind plays a major role in the well-being of pilots and hundreds of pax. What do you think if Meltemi is blowing at Samos(LGSM) or the Mistral at the Corsican airports like Calvi and Ajaccio?
Perhaps the wind limitations are not as strict as on Madeira, but wind plays indeed a role with the high terrain as heavy Turbulance is generated in windy conditions. I have seen loads of pax waiting at Samos since Olympic was wise to cancel their flights to Samos with very windy conditions. Offcourse some manage to get in or out just when some better conditions were prevailing, which always leads to pax being pissed-off. But safety first I would say!
See U at Funchal, QTA.
Perhaps the wind limitations are not as strict as on Madeira, but wind plays indeed a role with the high terrain as heavy Turbulance is generated in windy conditions. I have seen loads of pax waiting at Samos since Olympic was wise to cancel their flights to Samos with very windy conditions. Offcourse some manage to get in or out just when some better conditions were prevailing, which always leads to pax being pissed-off. But safety first I would say!
See U at Funchal, QTA.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: EU
I've been operating into FNC for 10 years or so. The new runway has actually made the "straight in" on Rwy 23 more tricky than it was - a downward rotor often exists at 500-700ft on final. 05 is pretty much the same as before (when it was 06!). But I usually enjoy the chance to really fly the aircraft - let's face it how many childhood dreams center around neatly following an ILS???
When you complete a good approach at Funchal you remember why you wanted to be a pilot - n'est pas?
When you complete a good approach at Funchal you remember why you wanted to be a pilot - n'est pas?
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Europe
Indeed, each landing in FNC makes the adrenaline explode in my body!
Now the locals know a lot of tricks to land, with the wind just out of limits. As somebody mentioned already before, the tower always gives wind, based on a 2min mean value. Trick is to ask in final the instinaneous wind. Sometimes they even ask, "give me a wind that is within limits" to the control. But I am not sure they will do it when you ask it in English... You'd better start practising some Portugues!
Next you just fly it to final and see what happens, how bad the W/S is.
A good ref. is to see what TP and LK do. If TAP goes around, and Air Luxor lands, be sure that there will be an inquiery. (btw, has happened already, but LK landed just in limits)
Imagine what will happen when you are a foreign company.
But the best ref. is still pilots judgement. Know your own limits.
This is just my eye-witness report when I was flying LK.
Greetz,
PDV
Now the locals know a lot of tricks to land, with the wind just out of limits. As somebody mentioned already before, the tower always gives wind, based on a 2min mean value. Trick is to ask in final the instinaneous wind. Sometimes they even ask, "give me a wind that is within limits" to the control. But I am not sure they will do it when you ask it in English... You'd better start practising some Portugues!
Next you just fly it to final and see what happens, how bad the W/S is.
A good ref. is to see what TP and LK do. If TAP goes around, and Air Luxor lands, be sure that there will be an inquiery. (btw, has happened already, but LK landed just in limits)
Imagine what will happen when you are a foreign company.
But the best ref. is still pilots judgement. Know your own limits.
This is just my eye-witness report when I was flying LK.
Greetz,
PDV
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
From: Don`t know anymore.....
Lizbet,
you are right with the downdraft on finals 23. I was there on Thursday morning. Wind 220/4 kts, but on final it was still X-Wind over the mountains with 20kts and we ended up with 30 deg. bank left and right at 500ft, out of nothing.
That`s FNC !!!!!
Quicktournaround,
will see ya Monday morning at Samos !!!!!!
( Why is it always me going to those places?)
you are right with the downdraft on finals 23. I was there on Thursday morning. Wind 220/4 kts, but on final it was still X-Wind over the mountains with 20kts and we ended up with 30 deg. bank left and right at 500ft, out of nothing.
That`s FNC !!!!!
Quicktournaround,
will see ya Monday morning at Samos !!!!!!
( Why is it always me going to those places?)
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 108
Likes: 1
From: ATLANTIS
Lizbet is right, about final 24, if u ever bothered to look right about on 3 miles final u now why. There u will be passing a venturi like valley, which works like a chute for wind thus creating turbulance.
Sorry Angel, I will be at SMI on friday........Otherwise I could offer U a nice Frappé
KALO TAXIDI, QTA
Sorry Angel, I will be at SMI on friday........Otherwise I could offer U a nice Frappé
KALO TAXIDI, QTA
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 11
From: Down south, USA.
Do 757s land there?
Just curious. Over "here" in the colonies, one of our 757/744 Aircrew training Instructors (with 757 type rating) was on our jumpseat about three days ago, and he described a tailstrike incident at a regular US east coast airport. The crew accepted some crappy ATC vectors which left them not stabilized at all by 1,000' AGL. Weather was not a factor. The FO suggested that they make a go-around, but sometimes Captains either don't really hear the 'message', or need to show that they can stabilize an unstable situation (contrary to the FOM).
If you scrape the tail of a 757, or a wingtip on any airplane, this is major structural damage. Boeing never needed a tailskid (
) on it. I would shudder at the idea of instant media coverage. They are welcome to call me a wimp for a recent go-around in moderate turbulence on final (gusting to 35 knots in thick rainshowers; there were no braking action reports for these conditions). We did not fly needed troops or support to Iraq or Afghanistan etc, so where is the need to be macho, or strictly "mission-oriented"?
If some pilots create serious aircraft damage resulting in days or weeks of lost revenue, will the company sympathise whenever we disregarded published limitations? Do spoilers always extend quickly when the main wheels barely spin-up on a wet runway?
Just curious. Over "here" in the colonies, one of our 757/744 Aircrew training Instructors (with 757 type rating) was on our jumpseat about three days ago, and he described a tailstrike incident at a regular US east coast airport. The crew accepted some crappy ATC vectors which left them not stabilized at all by 1,000' AGL. Weather was not a factor. The FO suggested that they make a go-around, but sometimes Captains either don't really hear the 'message', or need to show that they can stabilize an unstable situation (contrary to the FOM).
If you scrape the tail of a 757, or a wingtip on any airplane, this is major structural damage. Boeing never needed a tailskid (
) on it. I would shudder at the idea of instant media coverage. They are welcome to call me a wimp for a recent go-around in moderate turbulence on final (gusting to 35 knots in thick rainshowers; there were no braking action reports for these conditions). We did not fly needed troops or support to Iraq or Afghanistan etc, so where is the need to be macho, or strictly "mission-oriented"?If some pilots create serious aircraft damage resulting in days or weeks of lost revenue, will the company sympathise whenever we disregarded published limitations? Do spoilers always extend quickly when the main wheels barely spin-up on a wet runway?
