Whats happening at Cathay?

[SOPS]

According to a press realase on thier stite at www.cathaypacific.com/intl/aboutus/press
1400 pilots have signed the new pay offer.This was as of 17.30 local Hong Kong time, on the31/07/01. Iwas just wondring what was really going on? Anyone have any information?

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: SOPS ]

[mcdude]

"(the) lawyer's letters will have no impact on the introduction of the revised overtime scheme or Roster Practices." TT 28/07


http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/informa...%20Letters.pdf
http://hk-imail.singtao.com/inews/pu...644&intcatid=1

[SOPS]

Thanks Mcdude

[LoveGod]

According to the CX press release, 239 pilots will start on the new scheme immediately and the rest will take place on their birthday. Does it mean 239 pilots accepted the company's offer?

Tony Tyler claimed that over 1,400 pilots are already on the new pay scheme. Not a single one has rejected it. Nor has a single pilot rejected the improved benefits that they have implemented. Who is telling the truth? Him or the AOA?

Quote:
>>Cathay Pacific spokeswoman Lisa Wong said the difference between the former rostering practices and the new set related to a pilot's rest period after several days on duty; the use of a first-class seat instead of a bunk for rest on medium-haul flights; and three crew members instead of four for flights going to Auckland and Anchorage.<<

To those who didn't accept the offer, what are you going to do if you are rostered to fly with 3 pilots instead of the 4? Can you refuse to fly?

CX has now returned all the chartered aircraft and is back to full capacity flying its own aircraft. Does it mean they didn't need the aircraft in the first place? Or is it because the limited industrial action failed and caused no damage to the CX day to day operations?

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: LoveGod ]

[Airbubba]

As is the case with most expat jobs, you can be fired for any or no reason. The glory days of Cathay seem to be a fading memory.

>>"They couldn't get away with that in Australia or the States or the UK," he said, adding that the union was seeking further legal advice about its options.<<

_______________________________________


Thursday, August 2, 2001

Pilots denied appeal against sack
Cathay refuses to allow internal hearings over dismissals, sparking call for tougher laws


EXCLUSIVE by VICTORIA BUTTON

Cathay Pacific has written to pilots fired during the ongoing industrial dispute denying them internal appeals against their dismissals because the sackings were "not as a result of any particular offence".
The airline says in its letter it is not obliged to provide any reason for having exercised its power to end the pilots' employment.

"The company will vigorously defend any allegation that the termination of your employment was unlawful," said the letter, dated July 24 and signed by Captain Ken Barley, Cathay's director of flight operations.

The letter, sent to pilots who responded to their dismissal with a standard union reply, has sparked fresh calls from unionists for tougher employment laws.

SAR workers who can prove they have been "unreasonably" sacked can be granted only money they are owed, such as holiday pay - and cannot be reinstated without their employer's consent. Different rules apply to workers unlawfully dismissed - for example because they are pregnant.

In a May report, the United Nations expressed human rights concerns at Hong Kong's employment laws. However a Labour Department spokeswoman said the protection offered by current laws was reasonable.

Cathay's director of corporate development, Tony Tyler, yesterday refused to comment on why the pilots had been sacked. "We're legally entitled to do it and we have exercised our legal rights," he said. Asked whether it was fair, he said Cathay employees' contracts stated they could be terminated on payment of three months' salary. Similar conditions would apply to most Hong Kong workers, he added.

Previously, Cathay has publicly said the pilots were sacked after careful review because the company had "lost confidence" in them - although many claimed a spotless record. So far during the dispute, Cathay has sacked three pilots using standard disciplinary procedures and 49 en masse outside that system.

John Findlay, the general secretary of the pilots' union, the Aircrew Officers' Association, said Hong Kong would never become a leading city as long as employers could fire workers on a whim.

"They couldn't get away with that in Australia or the States or the UK," he said, adding that the union was seeking further legal advice about its options.

Stephen Smith, a senior associate at law firm Linklaters & Alliance, described Hong Kong's unreasonable-dismissal legislation as "fairly toothless". In the UK - where Cathay's major shareholder is based - companies can be forced to re-hire unfairly sacked employees and to pay compensation, he said.

More evidence was needed in the UK than in Hong Kong that a company had followed fair procedures before sacking employees, he said.

However, unreasonable-dismissal legislation could apply in Hong Kong even if employers had clauses stating they could terminate employees' contracts on payment of salary in lieu of notice, he noted, without referring specifically to the Cathay case.

Organising secretary for the Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions, Mak Tak-ching, said more than 70 per cent of the 100 to 200 calls to their hotline each day were from unfairly dismissed workers. He called for laws to better protect workers.

http://hongkong.scmp.com/ZZZO23B5RPC.html

[mcdude]

Lovegod this should answer most of your questions;

SCMP 2nd August by Victoria Button

No problem with new rosters: airline

Cathay yesterday claimed the introduction of its new roster practices had gone smoothly. However, while flights departed as normal, company data conspicuously failed to show large-scale acceptance by pilots of individual company offers on rostering.
More than 1,255 pilots returned standard union letters rejecting the offers on Tuesday.

Cathay refused to say how many pilots had filled in company forms asking them to nominate an overtime payment scheme, but provided other figures.

On the basis of these, fewer than 300 pilots had demonstrably filled in the company form - the 47 who chose to stay on the current overtime payment scheme and 239 who chose to start a new one immediately.

However, 1,275 pilots would start on the new payments next birthday, Cathay said.

Those who responded with union letters rejecting the deal were put in the birthday category - as were those who returned no preference.
http://hongkong.scmp.com/ZZZQVGB5RPC.html

[Turn and Burn]

The answer to the question posed by SOPS is "Nothing". The AOAs work to rule has no affect on departure times since crews suspect that if they pushback behind schedule without a valid (in the company's eyes)reason, they are liable to be sacked. Work related stress-induced sickness is also a non-starter, since anyone who cannot cope with stress would "lose the confidence" of the managers. It is a brave crew member who causes a delay by his work to rule. So life continues to grumble along at CX.
The rhetoric seen on this board is vacuous. 52 of the boys are on the beach and, if the resolve of the membership is any yardstick, they are likely to stay there. In the meantime, the company withdrew their final offer, having had it rejected by the AOA, and imposed an inferior offer on the crews. So now, instead of getting a new hourly rate for every hour spent positioning, we only get credited with half the positioning hours. Instead of getting the 3% restored to A-scale salaries, the cut remains in place. Instead of getting 3.5% of the monthly salary for working a G day, we now get 2.5%. So 52 pilots and a few improvements in our pay have been sacrificed.....and for what. A better overtime agreement, which we are not going to get anyway. Talk about lions led by donkeys.
So SOPS, nothing unusual is happening at Cathay. The aircraft depart on time, the passengers get carried safely to their destinations and the pilots beat their breasts and spout ineffective verbiage. Fairly normal really

[Kubota]

Departures 02 Aug
00:35 CX 255 Departed 00:40 5 min late
03:00 CX 2052 Departed 03:22 22 min late
03:00 CX 2073 Departed 02:54 6 min early
03:15 CX 2042 Departed 03:16 1 min late
07:45 CX 767 Departed 08:00 15 min late
07:50 CX 460 Departed 09:39 109 min late
07:55 CX 907 Departed 08:10 15 min late
07:55 CX 921 Departed 07:56 1 min late
08:55 CX 717 Departed 09:51 6 min late
09:00 CX 530 Departed 09:44 44 min late
09:00 CX 901 Departed 09:10 10 min late
09:05 CX 504 Departed 09:11 6 min late
09:20 CX 777 Departed 09:14 6 min late
09:55 CX 410 Departed 10:00 5 min late
10:00 CX 785 Departed 10:06 6 min late
10:05 CX 506 Departed 10:07 2 min late
10:05 CX 723 Departed 10:18 13 min late
10:10 CX 450 Departed 10:25 15 min late
11:30 CX 406 Departed 11:33 3 min late
13:10 CX 564 Departed 13:19 9 min late
13:50 CX 466 Departed 13:52 2 min late
14:20 CX 418 Departed 14:32 12 min late
14:20 CX 888 Departed 14:44 24 min late
14:25 CX 420 Departed 15:04 39 min late
14:25 CX 751 Departed 14:39 14 min late
14:25 CX 919 Departed 15:17 52 min late
14:55 CX 721 Departed 15:16 21 min late
15:00 CX 500 Departed 15:20 20 min late
15:00 CX 510 Departed 15:36 36 min late
15:10 CX 882 Departed 15:26 16 min late
15:50 CX 701 Departed 15:59 9 min late
15:55 CX 711 Departed 16:08 13 min late
16:00 CX 787 Departed 16:21 21 min late
16:05 CX 416 Departed 16:30 25 min late
16:05 CX 508 Departed 16:09 4 min late
16:10 CX 731 Departed 16:20 10 min late
16:10 CX 781 Departed 17:17 67 min late
16:10 CX 838 Departed 16:31 21 min late
16:15 CX 532 Departed 16:33 18 min late
16:20 CX 502 Departed 16:25 5 min late
16:20 CX 828 Departed 16:28 8 min late
16:30 CX 903 Departed 16:48 18 min late
16:35 CX 737 Departed 16:35 ON TIME
16:55 CX 400 Departed 17:01 6 min late
18:15 CX 402 Departed 18:34 19 min late
18:35 CX 703 Departed 18:45 10 min late
19:20 CX 111 Departed 19:39 19 min late

Normal?

[Turn and Burn]

How many of those late departing crews put the reason for the delay as adhering to the minutiae of company procedures? None I suspect.
More to the point, if someone is found to be causing an unnecessary delay and is therefore sacked, what will his erstwhile supine colleagues do? Why, nothing of course.
Apart from the bluff and bluster on this BB, the AOA action is finished. Best that the realisation strike home before more jobs are lost.

[cws]

Sorry, another long post and on the wrong topic as well, made a mistake. This here refers to the above articles and to the scab or not to scab topic. Sorry again for my spelling attack, but again I am just here in the cafe for a quick spilling of my thoughts that come up during the day in a lose order.

What gets me is the fact that the management is ignoring an long known fact on employee relations management.
If you lose the confidence and the loyalty of your employees your business will suffer. It cannot be pressed into numbers but we all know how unhappy pilots can make a flight a loss for the company, and still be on time!
Since our strike is officaly over the company is sending us blowjobletters (6 so far) telling us how they value us, how all the bad press was a mistake lalalalalalaaa. Why ? As stated above. They need us happy and loyal and not just ok and somewhat pissed because of the bad press during the strike. They are sweating it belive me, and all because they know this simple fact, btw you learn it in economics class (Leadership, employee relations managment) you spent half a year on the motivation thing at the university.
So what does the CX mgmt think?? Have they slept through that part? Do they know something my professor didnt? (like why double your fleet when a crisis is looming overhead! Maybe somebody can shine some light on THAT decision, a friend of mine has a theory which is hottly discussed in the upper ranks here, but he doesnt share it jet with me.)
What do they think will happen with a pilot, knowing 50 where sacked on no grounds. Will he step out the line to help out the company? Will he use his personal experience gained over the years to resolve a tricky situation and risk exposure? Sure as hell no. He will sit tight and stick to the book in fear. We all know where the book takes us in remote places and the assosiated problems which need an unconvetional solution. Me jumping around the plane trying to get the slot, bribing the deicing guy with a bottle of company wine to give me a quick spray? The hell no! And thats where we really could save big bucks, just as an example. This is deliberately given up by the cx mgmnt. Why? For those peanuts you guys want in comparison to the big picture in the long run? Makes no sense! They have shaken up EVERY employee since nobody can trust his contract given to him by the company. Maybe he is next to find out he mgmnt changed his conditions of service, because the ceo wants to paint the airplanes in a different color (ref. to the quote from one of your mgmnt). Where does it stop? Whose contract is next? Excellent motivation for all employed there, and will really pay of in the long run. A scared employee is not a productive one!
I live next to a 2end level mgmnt guy, veeeery important man. We are friends now for 6 years and were able to rescue that friendship through the strike, thank god.(Although he said the strike was basically a game of give a little take a little and keep a lot, just with higher stakes. Mngmt knew it has to pay since the company has promised it years ago, they just wanted to make the cake sweeter since we fought for it!) They have weekly stragety meetings with a global watch and guess what! The cx sackings was a topic. One thing I would have never expected happend. Our boys condemmed the mgmnt. Not because of the same reasons we all would but on the grounds of trust, reliability and stability. They discussed the sackings and stated - this is all not official of course- that that managment made a grave mistake, a mistake that should not have happend to them. They base their opinion on the loyality problem and longterm costs that this action will have many years the down the road. Matter of fact our guys where quite happy about that since cx is our "enemy". One also mentioned that sacking is the utmost panic thing to do and does not show a lot of belive in the mgmnts own capabilities. Was quite interesting to see things from the otherside and enemy standpoint.
Allscabed up (who is I thing from the panic brigade of cx mgmnt) mentioned contract pilots. There is no worldwide successful operating global player airline who acived its position on contract pilots. They stuffed holes maybe short term, but never long term. You need this stable loyal employee body to keep stability for strategy planning. No Lufthansa, United etc.. has contract pilots. The scenario you put up is dreamtime. Doesnt work with contractors. Not if you want to make money at least. But a nice try. So enough its late again, and I thing I wrote all I wanted to say on the pathetic mgmnt discussion.
GOOD NIGHT . And maybe somebody comes up with a little list of names....Had a cx jump request today, granted it since it was from the groundstaff in Fra.

[Kubota]

This one's for you, T&B...

Summary of all flights for 02 August

Delay (<15 mins) 45 Flights
Significant (15<60 mins) 28 Flights
Major (>60 mins) 8 Flights
Cancelled 10 Flights

I am sure every scheduled, established airline aspires to OTP like this.

[SOPS]

Hate to say it, but have to agree with Kubota, whish we could get all our flights out that close to schedule, (and we ARE trying to), for people trying not to, it doesnt seem really effective, or am I missing something?

[Wilfred]

The new contract has been imposed on the pilots, and I read that 3 out of a course of 4 have recently left Cx while still ground training. But what actually is happening out there? There seems to be little action on either side, or are they massing their forces for the Big Push? One can only hope that the AOA are working on a cunning plan, and that they haven't just run out of ideas.

[scanscanscan]

IMHO...All this sign a new contract,or be terminated stuff, is not new.
I saw it forced on the Gulf Air expat pilots in August 1976.
At the same time the Pilots Local Council (union) was also terminated, together with the provident fund and the companies contributions to it.
Then a memo was sent to all pilots by the British Ops manager Mr. xxxx which said "Pilot goodwill and cooperation was neither desirable nor required, Gulf Air was an Arab Airline and Arab pilots would be promoted if available, or short term type qualified contract Captains hired until they were."
Expat FO morale was lowered slightly,career goals adjusted!!
Mr xxx privately informed the ex RAF, Gulf Air VC10 fleet contract pilots, that there was to be a new seniority list created, and this would be in the order of the pilot "New Contract" signatures he received, this new list would control the sequence of pilots to be trained on the next lot of new L1011 due to arrive.
He joked to me, "I nearly died on day one in the RAF rats rush to be first to sign."
The lads were later, upset to find Mr xxx had not told the truth about this.
He also let it be known to all pilots that the security police had the names, passport numbers, and addresses of the pilot local council members, this was actually true,as they had this information on every employed expat on the island as SOP.
Needless to say, he was ordered to do these things or he would have lost his job, and importantly it was known he could not afford to let that happen.
His re employment chances were actually not that good in the UK, where we were told, he had last been employed as ops manager,where he lost a heavy 4 engine aircraft, loaded with pax in 1973.
He told me several years later "Ops. managers are also required to do things they do not wish to do, just like you pilots will."
Mrxxx was thus the ideal management candidate to be employed to sort the expat pilots union power, as he had no place left to go.
The seeds were thus sown for the future of Gulf Air airline management pilot relationships, and flowing from this not exactly text book HRM start,produced todays Gulf Air.
Present Cathay management IMHO will not be present to conduct their accident enquiry, and neither is the late Mr xxx.
As the bosses son said.....
"Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

[411A]

Oh, so very typical in the expat world, and the sooner the CX guys realise this, the better. Suspect they are...."babes in the woods".

[thegypsy]

What no one in Cathay seems to have realised is that Cathay is no longer a British Airline but a Chinese one and as in all ex-pat airlines and particularly Chinese one's one has no rights whatsoever. Did nobody not ever consider what the Pilot's reaction would be if say 52 Pilots had their contracts terminated??Those of us in SIA know all about rule by fear and intimidation as practiced by our Flight Management.
I might add that even in UK cases of unfair dismissal only attract minor rewards and in this case Cathay have obeyed the rules and at least have given 3 months salary in lieu. If this had been SIA you would have been out on your ear with nothing!!!

[Wilfred]

Beentheredonethat

Nice!

[St_Paul_Island]

"thegypsy" - CX has not paid three months salary in leiu; they have only said they did. It has not happened. This is illegal, of course; so was the sacking itself, the recent enforced contracts, the August roster, etc. CX don't obey the rules, not even well established flight time limitations; certainly not contracts.

If this had been SIA you would have been out on your ear with nothing!!!

52 are indeed in this very position.

BTW, I object to your innuendo that this is caused by Chinese management. This is a British run outfit, with British management. I don't know how the Chinese might run the show, but they couldn't possibly do worse. Your comments are racially offensive and irrelevant to boot.

[ 08 August 2001: Message edited by: St_Paul_Island ]

[John Barnes]

Gypsy has serious problems with reality, and a big axe to gring with SQ. He is your standard disgrunted employee profile,so everything he writes is biased and very one sided.

[RadioFlyer]

As of yesterday, Peter Sutch is no longer the Chairman of the Board, having reportedly tendered his resignation "for personal reasons."

What, indeed, is happening now?