Official : British Airways Retires Concorde (merged)
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Spoke to BA sales this afternoon. The upshot of that is that there are no £1999 deals available any more, they have all been sold out. There are however a few seats left at slightly higher prices.
The entire month of October is completely sold out,standard fares and offer fares.
To summarise, the girl at the sales office in Newcastle upon Tyne told me that for the next 6 months, there are now only a handful of seats left.
You've gotta do it!!
The entire month of October is completely sold out,standard fares and offer fares.
To summarise, the girl at the sales office in Newcastle upon Tyne told me that for the next 6 months, there are now only a handful of seats left.
You've gotta do it!!
Sir Richard Branson has told the BBC that Virgin Atlantic may seek government help if British Airways does not allow it to operate Concorde.
Source: BBC Online
Source: BBC Online
Last edited by NineEighteen; 17th Apr 2003 at 22:19.
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No surprise that the bearded cardigan would try to get max publicity from the demise of Concorde, but let's cut through the fog of PR here:
Virgin can't operate Concorde for several reasons:
1-To set up the maintenance and training operation would probably cost what V.At. is worth (and certainly RB's share)
2-Without AF running it the (unshared) cost of paying for manufacturer's support are impossibly high (one reason why BA couldn't go it alone).
3-Airbus (i.e. Aerospatiale and BAE) would not support any other airline operating it. They are on record as saying so. Quite simply the costs of setting up and the learning curve are impossibly steep.
Before the mudslinging starts: I would be delighted to see the old girl stay in the air, even in VS livery, but it just ain't ever gonna happen, and if Sir RB isn't careful someone will call his bluff and he will find himself in worlds of merde.
It's heartbreaking, but she's going.
PS - we keep seeing this drivel that BA paid £1 for them. It's rubbish. When BA took them on it paid the government many 10's of millions for the operation.
Virgin can't operate Concorde for several reasons:
1-To set up the maintenance and training operation would probably cost what V.At. is worth (and certainly RB's share)
2-Without AF running it the (unshared) cost of paying for manufacturer's support are impossibly high (one reason why BA couldn't go it alone).
3-Airbus (i.e. Aerospatiale and BAE) would not support any other airline operating it. They are on record as saying so. Quite simply the costs of setting up and the learning curve are impossibly steep.
Before the mudslinging starts: I would be delighted to see the old girl stay in the air, even in VS livery, but it just ain't ever gonna happen, and if Sir RB isn't careful someone will call his bluff and he will find himself in worlds of merde.
It's heartbreaking, but she's going.
PS - we keep seeing this drivel that BA paid £1 for them. It's rubbish. When BA took them on it paid the government many 10's of millions for the operation.
PPRuNe therapy...
Yes, I'm sorry for posting that WOK. The Virgin story is actually quite annoying now...I'm already struggling to come to terms with the retirement. This isn't helping.
I'm sure it would be easier to bare if I'd had the pleasure of flying on her but I missed out on the "cheap" seats and as an ATPL student I simply can't afford the full price!
I'm sure it would be easier to bare if I'd had the pleasure of flying on her but I missed out on the "cheap" seats and as an ATPL student I simply can't afford the full price!
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As many have said BA did not pay £1 for the aircraft: In 1972 they paid full market value for the aircraft (around 30% more than a new 747 at the time). The £164M price tag (for the 5 originally ordered aircraft) was funded out of public dividend capital, as the airline at the time was owned by the state and not a PLC.
This was later written off when the airline entered into an agreement to pay the government 80% of all future Concorde operating surpluses. British Airways and Air France only received the remaining 5 aircraft , 2 for BA and 3 for Air France, in 1980 when they were "placed" with the airlines as nobody else wanted them.
In 1982 the airlines were forced into negotiating a agreement where they would pick up all the support cost for the airframe and engine manufacturers, currently being met by the governments for Concorde. The governments would pull the plug and the only way for the aircraft to survive was for the airlines to take the risk and pay for it themselves.
Finally in March 1984, BA agreed to pay a sum of £16.5M, that would allow them to take on all the remaining UK assets and opt-out of the so called 80:20 agreement. Within this £16.5M was £2 (2 pounds) for G-BOAF and G-BOAG.
Stopping Concorde services is set to cost British Airways alone £84 Million. BA Finance director John Rishton, told the London Evening standard that part of this was made up for £47M for the cost of modifying the fleet to the new safety standards and upgrading the interior of the aircraft.
This entire sum will be written off as they airline now had no hope of making it back in returns. Many parts of this upgrade, although purchased, remaining un-fitted.
The remainder of the £84 Million would be made up by writing off the expensive stocks of spare parts and negotiating the early end of long term agreements with third parties, such as the aircraft manufacturers.
If Virgin Atlantic wanted to fly the BA aircraft they would have to find the majority of this £84 million and this is on-going cost associated with the aircraft.
This was later written off when the airline entered into an agreement to pay the government 80% of all future Concorde operating surpluses. British Airways and Air France only received the remaining 5 aircraft , 2 for BA and 3 for Air France, in 1980 when they were "placed" with the airlines as nobody else wanted them.
In 1982 the airlines were forced into negotiating a agreement where they would pick up all the support cost for the airframe and engine manufacturers, currently being met by the governments for Concorde. The governments would pull the plug and the only way for the aircraft to survive was for the airlines to take the risk and pay for it themselves.
Finally in March 1984, BA agreed to pay a sum of £16.5M, that would allow them to take on all the remaining UK assets and opt-out of the so called 80:20 agreement. Within this £16.5M was £2 (2 pounds) for G-BOAF and G-BOAG.
Stopping Concorde services is set to cost British Airways alone £84 Million. BA Finance director John Rishton, told the London Evening standard that part of this was made up for £47M for the cost of modifying the fleet to the new safety standards and upgrading the interior of the aircraft.
This entire sum will be written off as they airline now had no hope of making it back in returns. Many parts of this upgrade, although purchased, remaining un-fitted.
The remainder of the £84 Million would be made up by writing off the expensive stocks of spare parts and negotiating the early end of long term agreements with third parties, such as the aircraft manufacturers.
If Virgin Atlantic wanted to fly the BA aircraft they would have to find the majority of this £84 million and this is on-going cost associated with the aircraft.
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If she's full to October will she be retired? The aviation industry is a very fluid place!
Could they keep this going for a few years? i.e. in October say something along the lines of 'the take up of the seats on concorde has been so great she will keep flying for another three months' and keep that going for a while???
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Gusty was thinking of trying to book a Concorde trip via ebookers or one of the other discount travel agents who offer round trips for very reasonable prices.
Could anyone let me know if these are real deals on offer and any other relevant info.
A private mail (to avoid cluttering up the board) would be much appreciated from anyone in the know.
Cheers
Gusty
Could anyone let me know if these are real deals on offer and any other relevant info.
A private mail (to avoid cluttering up the board) would be much appreciated from anyone in the know.
Cheers
Gusty
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Heard the bearded wonder on the news today going on about Concorde.
Have BA considered Wet Leasing Concorde to him ??
I have seen on the thread about Airbus not continuing support and that would kill it, but maybe there are options if BA could bring themselves to do it.
It would have more than 1 potential upside.
a) Keep it in the sky and BA get it back when hopefully things improve.
b) If it is such a financial disaster, then BA have much to gain by shifting a whole load of debt Virgin's way.
I must say, Concorde in Virgin Colours does not look right but that's just my opinion.
Have BA considered Wet Leasing Concorde to him ??
I have seen on the thread about Airbus not continuing support and that would kill it, but maybe there are options if BA could bring themselves to do it.
It would have more than 1 potential upside.
a) Keep it in the sky and BA get it back when hopefully things improve.
b) If it is such a financial disaster, then BA have much to gain by shifting a whole load of debt Virgin's way.
I must say, Concorde in Virgin Colours does not look right but that's just my opinion.
Paxing All Over The World
I believe that Eddington has been heard to say the polite version of, "Branson get's Concorde only after George Bush wins the White House in a free and fair election."
He has ruled it out. I am sure that they would have sealed up plans to get them to museums, before making the announcement.
He has ruled it out. I am sure that they would have sealed up plans to get them to museums, before making the announcement.
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The best thing for the old bird now is to convert her to Coke Cans. Marvellous technical achievement though it was, the benefits were restricted to a small percentage of the flying public- who after all, guys, are our customers. The fact that she used three times as much fuel to carry a load of wealthies to the US in under half the time it takes for the (relatively) poorer majority shows that the thing was an irrelevance. I know it's not fashionable to say so, but look at how much of a difference the widebodies have made- I have no idea how many 747's, 340's etc are flying around the world these days, but I bet they have made more of a difference to people than 14 hideously subsidised (over 40-plus years I might add) technical marvels.
The level of debate in this forum leads me to think that many still cling to age-old ideals of Queen and Country and the Empire, and that the issue is one of the fact that a British achievement (conveniently downplaying the part played by the French) is now about to bite the dust. The simple fact is, the aircraft was never an economic success. Those of us who think that it should be kept flying at all costs ought to take a reality check. The airline business is a business, and it's the business end of it that keeps me flying, not ridiculous notions that we should be allowed to fly whatever we want, when we want and the way we want. We pilots should remember that, although important, we are just a part of the machine. And if I hear another colleague going on about the misdeeds of "Management".... if it's so easy to run a complex, multinational, fragile operation such as an airline... well, off you go, let's see you try. There seem to be so many business experts in the world, who seem to know the best thing to do after a decision has been made. Do me a favour. Keep flying the way you're paid to, and leave the business decisions to the business professionals.
It is a shame that Concorde is retiring, but I will be sadder to see the last 747, or the last Airbus fly. Flying boring aircraft is fine by me- at least they are more reliable and consume less of the Earth's dwindling resources. And in case you wondered, there is less time for unbridled emotional clap-trap in these straightened times...
The level of debate in this forum leads me to think that many still cling to age-old ideals of Queen and Country and the Empire, and that the issue is one of the fact that a British achievement (conveniently downplaying the part played by the French) is now about to bite the dust. The simple fact is, the aircraft was never an economic success. Those of us who think that it should be kept flying at all costs ought to take a reality check. The airline business is a business, and it's the business end of it that keeps me flying, not ridiculous notions that we should be allowed to fly whatever we want, when we want and the way we want. We pilots should remember that, although important, we are just a part of the machine. And if I hear another colleague going on about the misdeeds of "Management".... if it's so easy to run a complex, multinational, fragile operation such as an airline... well, off you go, let's see you try. There seem to be so many business experts in the world, who seem to know the best thing to do after a decision has been made. Do me a favour. Keep flying the way you're paid to, and leave the business decisions to the business professionals.
It is a shame that Concorde is retiring, but I will be sadder to see the last 747, or the last Airbus fly. Flying boring aircraft is fine by me- at least they are more reliable and consume less of the Earth's dwindling resources. And in case you wondered, there is less time for unbridled emotional clap-trap in these straightened times...
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Spot on....!
Denzilmatic is right on target with his comments, altho Coke cans is a bit harsh...but never mind.
One wonders just how many here who are wailing and moaning about Concordes' demise, have actually bought a ticket on Concorde, a full fare ticket, not an airline discounted one.
Not many i'll bet.
One wonders just how many here who are wailing and moaning about Concordes' demise, have actually bought a ticket on Concorde, a full fare ticket, not an airline discounted one.
Not many i'll bet.
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411, I have bought a full fare ticket, on more than one occasion.
Concorde was purely a business tool which allowed me to get home at 2225 rather than face the dull 747 ride from JFK.
Those who say they prefer First class must be joking on the JFK-LHR run. Normal flying time is about 6.30, so even allowing for time to get to sleep and wake up/land you don't get a good sleep.
Its a crying shame she cannot be kept flying and if only she did not have the very British disease of being too small with not enough range, I'm sure she would have kept flying.
Maybe we'll get lucky and BA will change their minds, otherwise my Son and Daughter have at least the next 20 years looking forward to flying subby all the time.
I will be on her before she retires, and if NW1 will talk with me, I still have not been on BOAF, is there anyway I can get a schedule of which aircraft is rostered when ???
Concorde was purely a business tool which allowed me to get home at 2225 rather than face the dull 747 ride from JFK.
Those who say they prefer First class must be joking on the JFK-LHR run. Normal flying time is about 6.30, so even allowing for time to get to sleep and wake up/land you don't get a good sleep.
Its a crying shame she cannot be kept flying and if only she did not have the very British disease of being too small with not enough range, I'm sure she would have kept flying.
Maybe we'll get lucky and BA will change their minds, otherwise my Son and Daughter have at least the next 20 years looking forward to flying subby all the time.
I will be on her before she retires, and if NW1 will talk with me, I still have not been on BOAF, is there anyway I can get a schedule of which aircraft is rostered when ???
Prince of Darkness
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Interesting use for Concord
Seems a Dr. Philip James of Dundee Uni, wants to offer GBP1.50 for a Concord so he can turn it into a hyperbaric chamber
I don't think he has much chance...
Concord the Hyperbaric
Ozzy
I don't think he has much chance...
Concord the Hyperbaric
Ozzy
Paxing All Over The World
BBC web news
Collectors bid for Concorde mementoes
Concorde's demise is blamed on poor passenger figures. It may be six months before Concorde makes its last flight, but already the bargain hunters are eyeing up "collectables" from the aircraft.
British Airways say hundreds of museum curators, collectors and bargain hunters have been in touch with requests to buy Concorde mementoes.
Article closes with:
Collectors bid for Concorde mementoes
Concorde's demise is blamed on poor passenger figures. It may be six months before Concorde makes its last flight, but already the bargain hunters are eyeing up "collectables" from the aircraft.
British Airways say hundreds of museum curators, collectors and bargain hunters have been in touch with requests to buy Concorde mementoes.
Article closes with:
BA has so far made no indication of how it will dispose of the magnificent flying machines, which took to the skies in 1969. One thing is for certain, the spokesman stressed: "They're not for sale for another airline to operate."
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norodnik:
OAF is currently awaiting an inter-check. This would take several months and allegedly £1.5m, so it clearly isn't going to happen.
Apparently BA Engineering are attempting to negotiate a reduced check with Airbus (on the basis that it won't be required to last for 2 years......) which would make OAF's return to flying duties economic.
As for which hull does which flight, this is often decided the night before or later, so it's hard to predict which it will be.
Personally, I hope accomodation can be reached with Airbus because, in my opinion, Fox is the nicest of the lot. (And they're all fantastic).
OAF is currently awaiting an inter-check. This would take several months and allegedly £1.5m, so it clearly isn't going to happen.
Apparently BA Engineering are attempting to negotiate a reduced check with Airbus (on the basis that it won't be required to last for 2 years......) which would make OAF's return to flying duties economic.
As for which hull does which flight, this is often decided the night before or later, so it's hard to predict which it will be.
Personally, I hope accomodation can be reached with Airbus because, in my opinion, Fox is the nicest of the lot. (And they're all fantastic).
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WOK, I would be grateful if you could let me know.
I know I'm being a bid of a sad'o but its odd how 60% of the Concorde pictures I have looked at seem to be OAF.
In my first 7 flights I managed to go on 5 out of the 7, finally got to go on OAB which was fun as a) We had a rejected takeoff from JFK, no drama as we were only going about 20kts, waited for the brakes to cool and went off on the next attempt and b) Whilst in flight the mach display went wrong and the speed we were going gradually crept up to 1990 mph. I caught it on video so perhaps I can claim to be one of the fastest Concorde passengers ever (even though we would have melted long before 1990!!!)
OAD,OAG seem to turn up the most for me but I must admit to noticing almost no difference between any of them except for the different color (yellow or green) on the speed/distance display.
Finally, had a few chats with some ex-Concorde pilot firends of mine who acknowledged absolutely that this is the end
interstingly they also had a few tales to tell about certain incidents that they had never told me before, I guess it doesn't matter so much anymore.
I know I'm being a bid of a sad'o but its odd how 60% of the Concorde pictures I have looked at seem to be OAF.
In my first 7 flights I managed to go on 5 out of the 7, finally got to go on OAB which was fun as a) We had a rejected takeoff from JFK, no drama as we were only going about 20kts, waited for the brakes to cool and went off on the next attempt and b) Whilst in flight the mach display went wrong and the speed we were going gradually crept up to 1990 mph. I caught it on video so perhaps I can claim to be one of the fastest Concorde passengers ever (even though we would have melted long before 1990!!!)
OAD,OAG seem to turn up the most for me but I must admit to noticing almost no difference between any of them except for the different color (yellow or green) on the speed/distance display.
Finally, had a few chats with some ex-Concorde pilot firends of mine who acknowledged absolutely that this is the end
interstingly they also had a few tales to tell about certain incidents that they had never told me before, I guess it doesn't matter so much anymore.
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I wonder when she retires and it is not as commercially sensitive to BA, we will hear all the stories of the close shaves that have gone on over the years.
"Close shave" is probably the wrong phase, but there are some great funnies around.
I've posted this one somewhere before, but it is still V funny.
It is an account from a traning day on what to do if the Concorde electric cockpit seats go wrong. It is taken from Ken Larsons' book which he wrote after flying the Braniff services
Runaway Electric Seat Procedure
1. Initial Action: Determine which seat is running away. During the stress of routine operations, it is possible to mistake which seat is running away. Example: if the captain's seat is out of control forward, it shall appear to the captain that the first officer's is running backwards. This is a common form of disorientation and will only last until the capt. is emasculated on the control column. Do not disengage the autopilot at this time as a violent pitch down will result. In order to determine which seat is the runaway, suggested procedure is to awaken the flight engineer for trouble shooting.
2. Silence Aural Warnings: With the advent of a runaway seat, crew members describe noises of a low rumbling nature followed by the words "Jesus, my seat is out of control," followed by a piercing scream of increasing intensity and pitch, especially in cases of forward runaways. As in all emergencies and in order to comply with regulations, the first officer will silence the aural warnings by clamping a hand over the captain's mouth and advise, "Captain's mouth - shut." From this point on, refer to the checklist located on the underside of the captain's seat cushion.
3. Jammed Balls: Should the seat runaway in the forward mode, the ball bearings will interlock and jam the seat when it is four inches from the control panel. The seat will then be stuck in the forward position and travel no further forward, but begin traveling up in a vertical mode. The captain will advise crew, " I have jammed ball," the flight engineer will immediately refer to the captain's Jammed Balls Checklist located in the aft lavatory. It is imperative that the crew check for the control column damage at this time. If the control column is broken, the crew will advise dispatch that the captain has a broken stick and jammed balls.
4. Circuit Breaker - Pull: The flight engineer at this time will pull the appropriate circuit breaker to prevent the seat from running up further in the vertical mode which could cause the bearings to overheat and possibly result in a ball burst. This would necessitate the use of the Broken Balls Checklist. Since the engineer can rarely find the correct CB, it is suggested that any CB be picked at random and pulled so as not to delay completion of the checklist. Example: Pull #1 CB; captaints position will prevent him from cross-checking this step.
5. Fire, Check: When the seat bearings jam and stop forward seat travel, the electric motor may short out and start a fire under the captain, resulting in a captain's lower aft body overbeat. The flight engineer will advise the captain of the fire, to which the captain will reply "Fire, my butt."
6. Seat Up - Up: Should the seat continue to run away in the vertical mode, the first officer will advise "Seat up," to which it is suggested to place a pillow on the captain's head and land at the nearest suitable Airport
"Close shave" is probably the wrong phase, but there are some great funnies around.
I've posted this one somewhere before, but it is still V funny.
It is an account from a traning day on what to do if the Concorde electric cockpit seats go wrong. It is taken from Ken Larsons' book which he wrote after flying the Braniff services
Runaway Electric Seat Procedure
1. Initial Action: Determine which seat is running away. During the stress of routine operations, it is possible to mistake which seat is running away. Example: if the captain's seat is out of control forward, it shall appear to the captain that the first officer's is running backwards. This is a common form of disorientation and will only last until the capt. is emasculated on the control column. Do not disengage the autopilot at this time as a violent pitch down will result. In order to determine which seat is the runaway, suggested procedure is to awaken the flight engineer for trouble shooting.
2. Silence Aural Warnings: With the advent of a runaway seat, crew members describe noises of a low rumbling nature followed by the words "Jesus, my seat is out of control," followed by a piercing scream of increasing intensity and pitch, especially in cases of forward runaways. As in all emergencies and in order to comply with regulations, the first officer will silence the aural warnings by clamping a hand over the captain's mouth and advise, "Captain's mouth - shut." From this point on, refer to the checklist located on the underside of the captain's seat cushion.
3. Jammed Balls: Should the seat runaway in the forward mode, the ball bearings will interlock and jam the seat when it is four inches from the control panel. The seat will then be stuck in the forward position and travel no further forward, but begin traveling up in a vertical mode. The captain will advise crew, " I have jammed ball," the flight engineer will immediately refer to the captain's Jammed Balls Checklist located in the aft lavatory. It is imperative that the crew check for the control column damage at this time. If the control column is broken, the crew will advise dispatch that the captain has a broken stick and jammed balls.
4. Circuit Breaker - Pull: The flight engineer at this time will pull the appropriate circuit breaker to prevent the seat from running up further in the vertical mode which could cause the bearings to overheat and possibly result in a ball burst. This would necessitate the use of the Broken Balls Checklist. Since the engineer can rarely find the correct CB, it is suggested that any CB be picked at random and pulled so as not to delay completion of the checklist. Example: Pull #1 CB; captaints position will prevent him from cross-checking this step.
5. Fire, Check: When the seat bearings jam and stop forward seat travel, the electric motor may short out and start a fire under the captain, resulting in a captain's lower aft body overbeat. The flight engineer will advise the captain of the fire, to which the captain will reply "Fire, my butt."
6. Seat Up - Up: Should the seat continue to run away in the vertical mode, the first officer will advise "Seat up," to which it is suggested to place a pillow on the captain's head and land at the nearest suitable Airport