American to lay off 2500 pilots
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767300er,
I've tried to use reasonable language when posting with you....
Your last sentence was completely out of order. At no time have I said "...I'm entitled to...", and I've NEVER objected to legal immigrants to my country, or Americans flying for carriers overseas.
I understand the difficult situation you are in, but I'm distressed that you would resort that kind of cheap shot, behind the anonimity of a keyboard. You intimate that any "entitlement" rights belong only to ex-TWA pilots of white, US, descent.
I immigrated to the US long before I joined AA - I flew for your Air Force on exchange. I know several US citizens flying for European carriers, and I've never even considered objecting to them, and yes, I've been furloughed in Europe - you get on with life and don't burn bridges or make incredibly pond-life remarks about others that you've never met.
The more I read your last paragraph, the more dissappointed I am; let's hope you don't come across to the many "foreigners" reading these forums that you represent the average American.
I know I would be ashamed to have written your words, no matter how unjust I thought my current situation to be.
I've tried to use reasonable language when posting with you....
Your last sentence was completely out of order. At no time have I said "...I'm entitled to...", and I've NEVER objected to legal immigrants to my country, or Americans flying for carriers overseas.
I understand the difficult situation you are in, but I'm distressed that you would resort that kind of cheap shot, behind the anonimity of a keyboard. You intimate that any "entitlement" rights belong only to ex-TWA pilots of white, US, descent.
I immigrated to the US long before I joined AA - I flew for your Air Force on exchange. I know several US citizens flying for European carriers, and I've never even considered objecting to them, and yes, I've been furloughed in Europe - you get on with life and don't burn bridges or make incredibly pond-life remarks about others that you've never met.
The more I read your last paragraph, the more dissappointed I am; let's hope you don't come across to the many "foreigners" reading these forums that you represent the average American.
I know I would be ashamed to have written your words, no matter how unjust I thought my current situation to be.
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>>Heard from an AA Pilot that AA are losing $30.00 for every seat booked!!
Yeah, but they make up for it with volume...
_______________________________________________
AIRLINES IN TURMOIL
Concessions Prove a Tough Sell
To American Airlines Workers
By SCOTT MCCARTNEY
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
The contract concessions that AMR Corp.'s American Airlines tentatively won from its unions have run into so much employee resistance that union leaders are coming back to management to ask for changes.
Leaders of American's three unions agreed last week to a package of hefty concessions that would save the airline a total of $1.8 billion a year. American, the world's largest airline, says if it doesn't get the concessions, it will file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy-court protection. Last week, the airline was within minutes of filing in New York before union leaders approved tentative agreements.
Voting on those agreements, which require majority approval, will be completed Monday with results to be announced a week from Tuesday.
Leaders of unions representing pilots, flight attendants and ground workers have all run into complaints over the length of the contracts -- six years -- and the minimal annual pay raises of 1.5% that begin next year. "The sense I am getting is that this [tentative agreement] will not pass unless the six-year duration is shortened" and a provision to revisit pay rates before the contract runs out is added, Capt. Tom Frazer, chairman of the Allied Pilots Association's Miami base, said in an e-mail to pilots Sunday. Miami has often been a hotbed of dissent for pilots at American in the past.
Presidents of the pilots, flight attendants and ground workers unions together relayed their members' concerns to management late last week. A spokesman for American said Monday the company was not "back at the negotiating table," but declined to comment on whether executives were entertaining informal talks. "We're not discussing at all where anything is in this process," the spokesman said.
The tentative contracts cut deeply. Pilots would see an initial 23% cut in pay, easing to 17% next year, plus work-rule changes that would result in American shedding about 2,500 cockpit jobs this year. Flight attendants would see pay cut 15.6% on May 1. Within the Transport Workers Union, mechanics would see pay cut 17.5% and baggage-handlers would take a 16% reduction in salary.
Management and nonunion employees also would take pay cuts totaling $180 million of the $1.8 billion in annual savings.
American, based in Fort Worth, Texas, contends the cuts are necessary to stem its huge losses, which totaled more than $5.2 billion over the past two years. The carrier is believed to be burning through more than $5 million a day in cash with the war in Iraq reducing passenger bookings. The airline has told workers it needs to restructure, just like US Airways Group Inc., which emerged from Chapter 11 last week, and UAL Corp.'s United Airlines, which continues to operate under bankruptcy-court protection. American also told its workers that bankruptcy would entail contract cuts that are at least $500 million deeper than the $1.8 billion voluntary agreements.
Faced with the option of bankruptcy, union leaders still believe members will ratify the concessions. Pension benefits would be relatively unscathed, and workers had told union leaders ahead of time they preferred to trade lower pay for preserving pensions, something that could be harder to do in bankruptcy.
"It's not pretty. But it does represent perhaps the best chance we have at this time for keeping American Airlines out of bankruptcy," John Ward, president of the Association of Professional Flight Attendants, told his members.
The contracts do offer some potential upside. The company is offering stock options to purchase 37.9 million AMR shares, which would be priced on the day after ratification, and profit-sharing that would allow workers to share 15% of AMR's pretax operating profits over $500 million.
Opponents, particularly in the pilot ranks, complain that some pay rates will be even lower than at United, and came about under heavy pressure from the company. A group of hard-liners called "Pilots Defending the Profession," or PDP, contends the tentative agreement gives the company too much and accuses AMR Chairman and Chief Executive Donald Carty of "extortion."
"We all know that bankruptcy will most likely be worse, but I will not demean this profession by allowing management to extract more than they have asked for under the threat of a gun," said Capt. Sam Mayer, chairman of American's New York union base and a PDP leader.
Pilot message boards have been filled with anger over cuts and the ultimatum from the company. Some even outlined the "six stages" of grief. Still, even some PDP supporters have urged ratification. "I don't see how bankruptcy is in our short- or long-term interests," First Officer Robert Reifsnyder, a PDP supporter and union negotiator, concluded in a bulletin board posting that was e-mailed by union leaders to pilots in many American domiciles Monday.
Updated April 8, 2003 12:08 a.m.
Yeah, but they make up for it with volume...
_______________________________________________
AIRLINES IN TURMOIL
Concessions Prove a Tough Sell
To American Airlines Workers
By SCOTT MCCARTNEY
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
The contract concessions that AMR Corp.'s American Airlines tentatively won from its unions have run into so much employee resistance that union leaders are coming back to management to ask for changes.
Leaders of American's three unions agreed last week to a package of hefty concessions that would save the airline a total of $1.8 billion a year. American, the world's largest airline, says if it doesn't get the concessions, it will file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy-court protection. Last week, the airline was within minutes of filing in New York before union leaders approved tentative agreements.
Voting on those agreements, which require majority approval, will be completed Monday with results to be announced a week from Tuesday.
Leaders of unions representing pilots, flight attendants and ground workers have all run into complaints over the length of the contracts -- six years -- and the minimal annual pay raises of 1.5% that begin next year. "The sense I am getting is that this [tentative agreement] will not pass unless the six-year duration is shortened" and a provision to revisit pay rates before the contract runs out is added, Capt. Tom Frazer, chairman of the Allied Pilots Association's Miami base, said in an e-mail to pilots Sunday. Miami has often been a hotbed of dissent for pilots at American in the past.
Presidents of the pilots, flight attendants and ground workers unions together relayed their members' concerns to management late last week. A spokesman for American said Monday the company was not "back at the negotiating table," but declined to comment on whether executives were entertaining informal talks. "We're not discussing at all where anything is in this process," the spokesman said.
The tentative contracts cut deeply. Pilots would see an initial 23% cut in pay, easing to 17% next year, plus work-rule changes that would result in American shedding about 2,500 cockpit jobs this year. Flight attendants would see pay cut 15.6% on May 1. Within the Transport Workers Union, mechanics would see pay cut 17.5% and baggage-handlers would take a 16% reduction in salary.
Management and nonunion employees also would take pay cuts totaling $180 million of the $1.8 billion in annual savings.
American, based in Fort Worth, Texas, contends the cuts are necessary to stem its huge losses, which totaled more than $5.2 billion over the past two years. The carrier is believed to be burning through more than $5 million a day in cash with the war in Iraq reducing passenger bookings. The airline has told workers it needs to restructure, just like US Airways Group Inc., which emerged from Chapter 11 last week, and UAL Corp.'s United Airlines, which continues to operate under bankruptcy-court protection. American also told its workers that bankruptcy would entail contract cuts that are at least $500 million deeper than the $1.8 billion voluntary agreements.
Faced with the option of bankruptcy, union leaders still believe members will ratify the concessions. Pension benefits would be relatively unscathed, and workers had told union leaders ahead of time they preferred to trade lower pay for preserving pensions, something that could be harder to do in bankruptcy.
"It's not pretty. But it does represent perhaps the best chance we have at this time for keeping American Airlines out of bankruptcy," John Ward, president of the Association of Professional Flight Attendants, told his members.
The contracts do offer some potential upside. The company is offering stock options to purchase 37.9 million AMR shares, which would be priced on the day after ratification, and profit-sharing that would allow workers to share 15% of AMR's pretax operating profits over $500 million.
Opponents, particularly in the pilot ranks, complain that some pay rates will be even lower than at United, and came about under heavy pressure from the company. A group of hard-liners called "Pilots Defending the Profession," or PDP, contends the tentative agreement gives the company too much and accuses AMR Chairman and Chief Executive Donald Carty of "extortion."
"We all know that bankruptcy will most likely be worse, but I will not demean this profession by allowing management to extract more than they have asked for under the threat of a gun," said Capt. Sam Mayer, chairman of American's New York union base and a PDP leader.
Pilot message boards have been filled with anger over cuts and the ultimatum from the company. Some even outlined the "six stages" of grief. Still, even some PDP supporters have urged ratification. "I don't see how bankruptcy is in our short- or long-term interests," First Officer Robert Reifsnyder, a PDP supporter and union negotiator, concluded in a bulletin board posting that was e-mailed by union leaders to pilots in many American domiciles Monday.
Updated April 8, 2003 12:08 a.m.
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'Your Air Force' ?
Raamjet, let me give you an example of how I feel, in the hopes you'll understand.
Say I work for BA, as a Yank who married a lovely English girl and got UK citizenship, and live in the beautiful countryside south of Gatwick, say in Brighton or the Hove coast area. I fly wide-bodies at BA, and you are a fairly senior, experienced pilot at British Midland, flying the Airbus 330. Say for example, BA buys BMI, and integrates them the way AA did with TWA, putting 75% of their total workforce at the bottom of BA's seniority lists. Say you lose your wide-body seat, then go to the 737, or even worse, the ERJ. Then, because of your lack of seniority in the unfair integration, you get furloughed/laid-off, then essentially replaced by junior, newly-hired BA pilots much younger and less experienced than yourself. Then I meet you in a pub, or here on PPRune, and tell you it was 'fair and equitable' and 'BMI was a small airline' or 'BMI would have been bankrupt soon anyway'; I frequently justify, or try to justify, my position as a naturalized UK citizen flying for Britain's largest flag carrier, while UK-born-and-bred pilots at BMI, with many more years of seniority/service, get furloughed/laid-off.
How would you feel?
PS I do think you meant "OUR Air Force", right? By the way, I love, and always have loved, the RAF. Just picked up a book passing thru LHR entitled "The Battle" by Richard Overy, about their finest hour in WWII. "Evening Standard" gives it a thumbs up! Send me a PM with your number, if you wish to chat.
Say I work for BA, as a Yank who married a lovely English girl and got UK citizenship, and live in the beautiful countryside south of Gatwick, say in Brighton or the Hove coast area. I fly wide-bodies at BA, and you are a fairly senior, experienced pilot at British Midland, flying the Airbus 330. Say for example, BA buys BMI, and integrates them the way AA did with TWA, putting 75% of their total workforce at the bottom of BA's seniority lists. Say you lose your wide-body seat, then go to the 737, or even worse, the ERJ. Then, because of your lack of seniority in the unfair integration, you get furloughed/laid-off, then essentially replaced by junior, newly-hired BA pilots much younger and less experienced than yourself. Then I meet you in a pub, or here on PPRune, and tell you it was 'fair and equitable' and 'BMI was a small airline' or 'BMI would have been bankrupt soon anyway'; I frequently justify, or try to justify, my position as a naturalized UK citizen flying for Britain's largest flag carrier, while UK-born-and-bred pilots at BMI, with many more years of seniority/service, get furloughed/laid-off.
How would you feel?
PS I do think you meant "OUR Air Force", right? By the way, I love, and always have loved, the RAF. Just picked up a book passing thru LHR entitled "The Battle" by Richard Overy, about their finest hour in WWII. "Evening Standard" gives it a thumbs up! Send me a PM with your number, if you wish to chat.
WhatsaLizad?
You were asked before by another member on this august forum with regards to your background, but notice that you fail to reply....those who live in glass houses should throw no stones...so as you seem to have all the answers, let's hear some.
411A
411A,
I thought I had made myself clear in several previous posts to you that I was a pilot for AA. Most of my responses to you have dealt with your inaccurate, uninformed, petty, and vindictive generalizations about AA and other major US pilot groups. As for my comments on the SEA landing or our A300 loss, my background is irrelevant. Anyone in aviation knows that making statements about incidents or accidents on level that you have is unforgivable, especially with the A300 crash where there are many issues unresolved at the moment.
As for my profile, I've had the mains of the B757 rolling down the runway at 190+ Kts more than enough times to be "qualified" enough to comment on your mindless attacks on others.
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190+ kts???
Lizad, thats awful fast for a B-757 on the ground. I don't recall ever going that fast, either landing or taking off. I recently did a sim check and landed with less than 5 degrees flap and an assymetry condition, and the Vref speed was only 177 with all that.
Seriously: Do you think the TA will pass? I hear its 50/50 yes/no from my colleagues. What do you think?
Seriously: Do you think the TA will pass? I hear its 50/50 yes/no from my colleagues. What do you think?
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190 kts?
190 kts is not that unusal when you fly into La Paz, Bolivia (SLLP).
Elevation 13313'.
I've been there numerous times myself and it's not unusual to
exceed max tire speed (195 kts) during the T/O roll.
The good old 757 performs like a dream there.
I'm talking ground speed here and when one exceeds max tire
speed all maintenance has to do is an inspection at the next station. I haven't seen any tread seperation or damage yet.
Corner speed--for some reason the post showed as a double-posting with some strange characters- hence the minor edit.
Elevation 13313'.
I've been there numerous times myself and it's not unusual to
exceed max tire speed (195 kts) during the T/O roll.
The good old 757 performs like a dream there.
I'm talking ground speed here and when one exceeds max tire
speed all maintenance has to do is an inspection at the next station. I haven't seen any tread seperation or damage yet.
Corner speed--for some reason the post showed as a double-posting with some strange characters- hence the minor edit.
Last edited by McD; 9th Apr 2003 at 07:45.
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as for the so call junior people that AA are getting rid of they are actualy the people that came to AA from TWA,many of which have many more years senority in the airline but lost it in the transfer
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Nitro, that would be all of about 25 pilots.
There were 2400 pilots at TWA, and speaking for myself, I did'nt apply to AA.
Just because people make lateral moves does'nt give them the right to take someone else's job, nor the right to keep working while more senior, more experienced pilots get furloughed.
Realistically, this entire career is a gamble, and noone knows how it will end up until they hit 60 (or 55 in some cases).
Noone out there is better or more entitled than another; they're just luckier.
There were 2400 pilots at TWA, and speaking for myself, I did'nt apply to AA.
Just because people make lateral moves does'nt give them the right to take someone else's job, nor the right to keep working while more senior, more experienced pilots get furloughed.
Realistically, this entire career is a gamble, and noone knows how it will end up until they hit 60 (or 55 in some cases).
Noone out there is better or more entitled than another; they're just luckier.
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Hmmm, well I guess that the very excessive wages demanded by the APA has nothing to do with this.
Certainly would not agree.
411A, Ok, I will bite. What do you consider excessive wages. What does an AA pilot earn a year compared to a Delta, or a Southwest Pilot on the B737? Are Southwest pilots earning excessive wages, do Delta pilots earn excessive wages. I am trying to use companies that are not in BK to compare. That is getting harder and harder. I still maintain that in all industries, management controls the destiny of the corporation, the employees are only along for the ride no matter what they may think.
"Just because people make lateral moves does'nt give them the right to take someone else\s job, nor the right to keep working while more senior, more experienced pilots get furloughed"
B767300ER, Do you consider someone more senior to be more experienced? I was a military aviator, mostly single engine single seat. It was always the most capable person that led the flights. When it got down to the short hairs, rank (seniority) had little to do with the capabilities of the individuals concerned. I suppose the airline community only has seniority to base experience on. But age, in my opinion, has rarely meant anything when it comes to raw ability. just one persons perspective. Heres hoping this whole nightmare of recession, 911, war, sars, and whatever is next passes quickly and all have their jobs back. Good luck.
Certainly would not agree.
411A, Ok, I will bite. What do you consider excessive wages. What does an AA pilot earn a year compared to a Delta, or a Southwest Pilot on the B737? Are Southwest pilots earning excessive wages, do Delta pilots earn excessive wages. I am trying to use companies that are not in BK to compare. That is getting harder and harder. I still maintain that in all industries, management controls the destiny of the corporation, the employees are only along for the ride no matter what they may think.
"Just because people make lateral moves does'nt give them the right to take someone else\s job, nor the right to keep working while more senior, more experienced pilots get furloughed"
B767300ER, Do you consider someone more senior to be more experienced? I was a military aviator, mostly single engine single seat. It was always the most capable person that led the flights. When it got down to the short hairs, rank (seniority) had little to do with the capabilities of the individuals concerned. I suppose the airline community only has seniority to base experience on. But age, in my opinion, has rarely meant anything when it comes to raw ability. just one persons perspective. Heres hoping this whole nightmare of recession, 911, war, sars, and whatever is next passes quickly and all have their jobs back. Good luck.
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B767300ER,
It would have been correct to place 100% of TWA below AA pilots. Did you happen to get seniority at your new job? I didn't think so.
This is old news but TWA was acquired not merged. The acquisition of TWA was not the downfall of AA, but it certainly didn't help the financial situation. The mangement at AA and APA is the main culprit and TWA was just one of many mistakes.
Remember, Seniorty is time spent at a SPECIFIC company not just any company.
It would have been correct to place 100% of TWA below AA pilots. Did you happen to get seniority at your new job? I didn't think so.
This is old news but TWA was acquired not merged. The acquisition of TWA was not the downfall of AA, but it certainly didn't help the financial situation. The mangement at AA and APA is the main culprit and TWA was just one of many mistakes.
Remember, Seniorty is time spent at a SPECIFIC company not just any company.
Last edited by Blue & White; 10th Apr 2003 at 01:30.
Blue and White,
Your post probably deserves an edit, and you a reprimand for posting it. But to be fair, you're not the only one in this thread who is guilty of attacking the person rather than the issue.
So, to make it perfectly clear to all contributors - remember to attack the issue, not the individual. If you can't play by the rules of this forum, you (and by this, I mean all of you who refuse to do this) will not be permitted to post any longer.
I'm leaving Blue and White's post in here to serve as an example (among others in this thread) on how NOT to debate an issue. I do hope this is perfectly clear.
Any questions? Don't clog up this thread - PM or e-mail me instead.
Now, back to the issue of the furloughs at AA, please.
Your post probably deserves an edit, and you a reprimand for posting it. But to be fair, you're not the only one in this thread who is guilty of attacking the person rather than the issue.
So, to make it perfectly clear to all contributors - remember to attack the issue, not the individual. If you can't play by the rules of this forum, you (and by this, I mean all of you who refuse to do this) will not be permitted to post any longer.
I'm leaving Blue and White's post in here to serve as an example (among others in this thread) on how NOT to debate an issue. I do hope this is perfectly clear.
Any questions? Don't clog up this thread - PM or e-mail me instead.
Now, back to the issue of the furloughs at AA, please.
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since you asked...
dudly,
The following should be considered as maximum for wide-body crew with major aircarriers.
Captains $12,000/mo
F/O's $ 8,000/mo
F/E's $ 7,000/mo (if required on the equipment)
These rates reflect what is available in the marketplace today, and for the near-mid term.
Smaller carriers (offering tax-free salaries+housing) would be,
Captains $8,000/mo
F/O's $5,500/mo
F/E's $5,500/mo (with A&P, $6,000)
These are achieveable rates and we have over a hundred CV's on file, from (experienced on type) folks that would be available with two weeks notice.
Alternately, TCN's are available (with experience on type) for,
Captains $4,500
F/O's $3,000
F/E's $3,000
Plenty of folks in the available pool as well.
Supply...not a problem.
The following should be considered as maximum for wide-body crew with major aircarriers.
Captains $12,000/mo
F/O's $ 8,000/mo
F/E's $ 7,000/mo (if required on the equipment)
These rates reflect what is available in the marketplace today, and for the near-mid term.
Smaller carriers (offering tax-free salaries+housing) would be,
Captains $8,000/mo
F/O's $5,500/mo
F/E's $5,500/mo (with A&P, $6,000)
These are achieveable rates and we have over a hundred CV's on file, from (experienced on type) folks that would be available with two weeks notice.
Alternately, TCN's are available (with experience on type) for,
Captains $4,500
F/O's $3,000
F/E's $3,000
Plenty of folks in the available pool as well.
Supply...not a problem.
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Blue&White, your attitude and enormous sense of entitlement (like the world or this industry owes you a living) is completely predictable, typical and understandable. I'd expect nothing less from a dyed-in-the-wool, hardline AA/APA radical who thinks TWA pilots much more experienced and skilled than himself deserve NOTHING.
Now that AA is headed for chapter 11 (don't look now but the TWU is going to vote NO), we'll see how long YOU last after 3000+ more pilot furloughs, 30% paycuts and the gutting of APA's CBA.
Then again, with the US Congress deciding this week to hold hearings into the TWA/AA seniority 'integration' debacle, we'll see who has the last laugh. Careful, you just might get punished---with something fair like neutral, third-party ARBITRATION.
Cheers.
Now that AA is headed for chapter 11 (don't look now but the TWU is going to vote NO), we'll see how long YOU last after 3000+ more pilot furloughs, 30% paycuts and the gutting of APA's CBA.
Then again, with the US Congress deciding this week to hold hearings into the TWA/AA seniority 'integration' debacle, we'll see who has the last laugh. Careful, you just might get punished---with something fair like neutral, third-party ARBITRATION.
Cheers.
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It's an unfortunate situation at AA with the furloughs of 2000+ pilots. I'm sure most are great people and excellent pilots.
There are a few though who were turned down for employment at AA in an earlier life and never got over it. These same pilots also were turned down at UAL, DAL, NWA, and CAL. They should thank their lucky stars they have a seniority number at AA. Nobody wants to see anyone in our profession out of a job or going through hard times, although there are some who should not be in this profession.
There are a few though who were turned down for employment at AA in an earlier life and never got over it. These same pilots also were turned down at UAL, DAL, NWA, and CAL. They should thank their lucky stars they have a seniority number at AA. Nobody wants to see anyone in our profession out of a job or going through hard times, although there are some who should not be in this profession.
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B767300ER, Actually I voted "NO" on the TA at American. The junior guys will eventually fall off the list. However, I figured there must be some kind of pilot shortage that we don't know about. After all, you found employment. How do you like flying that twin-engine prop commuter? 
Chef 411A, upset that his restaurant in the U.S.A attracts no one but the homeless indigents, moves to Somalia where thousands throng daily to eat.
Chef 411A is quoted to say, "In the U.S.A, they wouldn't eat my food due to the vermin, maggots and cholera in my culinary creations. Here in Somalia, they have learned to overlook these things and see my true talent in cooking".
It's all about timing 411A. Your "maximum pay chart" levels are just your babblings. They can go higher in better times, or lower in worse times.
Chef 411A is quoted to say, "In the U.S.A, they wouldn't eat my food due to the vermin, maggots and cholera in my culinary creations. Here in Somalia, they have learned to overlook these things and see my true talent in cooking".
It's all about timing 411A. Your "maximum pay chart" levels are just your babblings. They can go higher in better times, or lower in worse times.
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"No" ?
Blue&White, once again you've shown your true colors. That's the spirit! Pull up the ladder with the attitude of "I got mine---you get yours", and forget about those pilots less fortunate who may be laid-off, right? Your arrogance, ignorance and isolationism from reality have'nt dissapointed me.
About the commuter job, never flew in the commuters, and currently I'm staring at 4 job offers, a B-747 contract, L-1011 contract, B-747 freight airline and a B-757 charter airline. Nice to have a choice. I'll stack up my logbook, type-ratings and jet experience to yours any day.
About the "NO" vote, no suprise there, coming from you.
I'll bet you're one of those misinformed and sorely misguided souls who participated in that illegal sick-out in early '99, right?
I'm sure you're the pride of American Airlines and the Al-Qaeda Pilots Association!
About the commuter job, never flew in the commuters, and currently I'm staring at 4 job offers, a B-747 contract, L-1011 contract, B-747 freight airline and a B-757 charter airline. Nice to have a choice. I'll stack up my logbook, type-ratings and jet experience to yours any day.
About the "NO" vote, no suprise there, coming from you.
I'll bet you're one of those misinformed and sorely misguided souls who participated in that illegal sick-out in early '99, right?
I'm sure you're the pride of American Airlines and the Al-Qaeda Pilots Association!
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767300ER
Pilots clearly work under controlled circumstances, i.e. it is not a free market in that one cannot carry one's seniority along when they change.
I follow a simple rule- don't get too friendly with people at work, because they are not really your friends. Most of the same people you drink beer with will cut you off or "pull up the ladder" when their job is in jeopardy or they have a better opportunity. It's an unfortunate fact of work and business. I have several tales of employment woe of my own- you can let it go and move on or get an ulcer. Frankly, they've all helped me move ahead. So much for me.
You chose to fly for TWA for reasons of your own and made that choice freely- now unfortunately, and possibly unfairly, it is coming to light that it may not have been the best choice- but please stop slagging American and its' pilots (BTW, I really don't prefer them from my perspective either).
Pilots clearly work under controlled circumstances, i.e. it is not a free market in that one cannot carry one's seniority along when they change.
I follow a simple rule- don't get too friendly with people at work, because they are not really your friends. Most of the same people you drink beer with will cut you off or "pull up the ladder" when their job is in jeopardy or they have a better opportunity. It's an unfortunate fact of work and business. I have several tales of employment woe of my own- you can let it go and move on or get an ulcer. Frankly, they've all helped me move ahead. So much for me.
You chose to fly for TWA for reasons of your own and made that choice freely- now unfortunately, and possibly unfairly, it is coming to light that it may not have been the best choice- but please stop slagging American and its' pilots (BTW, I really don't prefer them from my perspective either).
Join Date: May 1999
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411A
You normally talk some good sense in your numerous posts, even though most pilots find your views quite outrageous and that's why I smile
.
However, I question your pay rates and their acceptability in the market place. You reckon an experienced Capt can earn $12,000 per month in the contract market and an F/O $8,000?
In some inhospitable parts of the world, maybe, but get real in Europe at least, these are not the going rates. Why do you think the American Aviation sector is in the doldrums? You guys priced yourself out of the market place! You will have plenty of guys on your books at those rates!
Jack
Oops 411A
I meant to say, you will have plenty on your books, but that is where they will stay...on the ground, not in the air!
Jack
You normally talk some good sense in your numerous posts, even though most pilots find your views quite outrageous and that's why I smile
.However, I question your pay rates and their acceptability in the market place. You reckon an experienced Capt can earn $12,000 per month in the contract market and an F/O $8,000?
In some inhospitable parts of the world, maybe, but get real in Europe at least, these are not the going rates. Why do you think the American Aviation sector is in the doldrums? You guys priced yourself out of the market place! You will have plenty of guys on your books at those rates!
Jack
Oops 411A
I meant to say, you will have plenty on your books, but that is where they will stay...on the ground, not in the air!
Jack
Jack The Lad,
I'm not an economist but there are a few things to keep in mind in the debate here on AA pilot salaries.
Here are some facts;
In constant 1982 dollars, AA pilot salaries are down something like 22% for equal aircraft type, excluding FE's who aren't around any more.
Considering job growth, I've read where Europe has had near zero total job growth while the US has had millions (year period unknown).
Europe has behind the US with the deregulation game. US salaries stagnated for years after deregulation.
AA pilot pay costs could never keep pace with the tidal wave of cash wasted in my 13+ years at AA. 132 million for a failed car rental computer system, 600 million on Canadian airlines, a very bad call on a Flight attendant strike (500 million?), a unnecessary family feud with pilots (400+ million), $1.8 Billion dollars in Fokkers thrown away, A fleet of SF340's and ATR's thrown away, millions each year for sports arena naming rights, two 120flt/day hubs thrown away (still paying rent), millions on Reno Air and total route elimination, Billions on TWA at the height of the business cycle (The CFO against the move is gone),and my favorite, $2.6 Billion in stock buybacks when the market was at it's highest just to bump up the price (AMR management is the biggest single shareholder). There is more I'm sure.
We will end up paying the price, but we aren't the ones who put the gun to the airline's head.
I'm not an economist but there are a few things to keep in mind in the debate here on AA pilot salaries.
Here are some facts;
In constant 1982 dollars, AA pilot salaries are down something like 22% for equal aircraft type, excluding FE's who aren't around any more.
Considering job growth, I've read where Europe has had near zero total job growth while the US has had millions (year period unknown).
Europe has behind the US with the deregulation game. US salaries stagnated for years after deregulation.
AA pilot pay costs could never keep pace with the tidal wave of cash wasted in my 13+ years at AA. 132 million for a failed car rental computer system, 600 million on Canadian airlines, a very bad call on a Flight attendant strike (500 million?), a unnecessary family feud with pilots (400+ million), $1.8 Billion dollars in Fokkers thrown away, A fleet of SF340's and ATR's thrown away, millions each year for sports arena naming rights, two 120flt/day hubs thrown away (still paying rent), millions on Reno Air and total route elimination, Billions on TWA at the height of the business cycle (The CFO against the move is gone),and my favorite, $2.6 Billion in stock buybacks when the market was at it's highest just to bump up the price (AMR management is the biggest single shareholder). There is more I'm sure.
We will end up paying the price, but we aren't the ones who put the gun to the airline's head.