North Sea Airspace Changes
Pardoned PPRuNer
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Ahhh Eyeinthesky dont worry bout the facts
Perhaps you might want to check with your own ops people as to why the FL290 Restriction is there. I think YOU will find YOU are the people that requested the traffic be transferred at FL290 not us, as far as I am concerned FL330 was (and is still) fine - send em over matey.
I accept you humble apology - in advance.
F300 x REFSO - no probs - at least then the sequnece would be good for the director.
I accept you humble apology - in advance.
F300 x REFSO - no probs - at least then the sequnece would be good for the director.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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I'm quite happy to offer humble apology if one is warranted, and I will check the situation when I get back to the Dome. We moaned like crazy about the FL 290 restriction during the NSea training, and were told that it was required by Maastricht Ops!!! Chinese whispers, one suspects.
My point about all on top of each other is that many times we watch you vectoring traffic approaching COA or GORLO to get one through the other, and then you let them all converge again before giving them to us, only for us to have to split them up again!!
As is usual, it's all about communiaction, and sometimes a lack of understanding of each other's problems. By the way, the 'you' above is a generic not specific term!
Ref the new Clacton sector, I look forward to hours of fun watching Lon Mil try to thread military traffic through the gap against NSea and CLN traffic!! The funny thing is that much of that traffic has come across the Pond on the civil airways, only to leave at DOLAS and then the military bother us for a crossing clearance. Why doesn't it just stay in the civil system??!
My point about all on top of each other is that many times we watch you vectoring traffic approaching COA or GORLO to get one through the other, and then you let them all converge again before giving them to us, only for us to have to split them up again!!
As is usual, it's all about communiaction, and sometimes a lack of understanding of each other's problems. By the way, the 'you' above is a generic not specific term!
Ref the new Clacton sector, I look forward to hours of fun watching Lon Mil try to thread military traffic through the gap against NSea and CLN traffic!! The funny thing is that much of that traffic has come across the Pond on the civil airways, only to leave at DOLAS and then the military bother us for a crossing clearance. Why doesn't it just stay in the civil system??!
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The funny thing is that much of that traffic has come across the Pond on the civil airways, only to leave at DOLAS and then the military bother us for a crossing clearance. Why doesn't it just stay in the civil system??!
Hippy.
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I just finished a flight to BRU from the US, and noticed radical airway/intersection changes in the hi-level Jepp chart for UK/North Sea. New airways, like UP59, and names of coast-in points, like "Balix" instead of 59N10W.
The revised chart had only come ut the day before my flight!
The revised chart had only come ut the day before my flight!
Join Date: Nov 2001
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The airspace south of Aberdeen is an accident waiting to happen.There are numerous agencies working in there, Aberdeen having to work the inbounds/outbounds ,Scatcc working some of the inbounds/outbounds on a RIS,Scatcc Mil working some others that have a special deal,and Leuchars working the ins and outs to them.Throw in Buchan and even Neatishead and their war games then you can see the muddle.The current system for FIR departures and arrivals to Aberdeen will end up with a dangerous airprox at the least and god forbid anything more serious.
The Airspace is Class G or open bundoo and the North Sea changes have just made it worse with the routes to Nexus and Madad.The notices given by Scot mil on inbounds is often next to nothing and as the aircraft have often started descent.Be prepared for some very high levels inbound to Aberdeen just to build in some form of safety.How about FL 240 at 30 miles for starters.
Part of the problem is Scatcc civil refusing to give RAS to traffic .This has forced some operators to go to Scot Mil for a RAS and the rest chance it on a RIS.Unfortunately the Atco 3 at Aberdeen working his butt off takes the brunt of our Atco2 cousins at Scatcc earning 11 grand more who refuse to provide a decent service to aircraft.We HAVE to give a RAS to get them on the ILS and sort out all the mess created by Scatcc civil/mil.
Our notification of airspace changes came the day before implementation .Our video maps don't show the new danger areas and the shop floor controllers had no notification that this would affect us.Simulation exercises?? What's the hell's that.
The Airspace is Class G or open bundoo and the North Sea changes have just made it worse with the routes to Nexus and Madad.The notices given by Scot mil on inbounds is often next to nothing and as the aircraft have often started descent.Be prepared for some very high levels inbound to Aberdeen just to build in some form of safety.How about FL 240 at 30 miles for starters.
Part of the problem is Scatcc civil refusing to give RAS to traffic .This has forced some operators to go to Scot Mil for a RAS and the rest chance it on a RIS.Unfortunately the Atco 3 at Aberdeen working his butt off takes the brunt of our Atco2 cousins at Scatcc earning 11 grand more who refuse to provide a decent service to aircraft.We HAVE to give a RAS to get them on the ILS and sort out all the mess created by Scatcc civil/mil.
Our notification of airspace changes came the day before implementation .Our video maps don't show the new danger areas and the shop floor controllers had no notification that this would affect us.Simulation exercises?? What's the hell's that.
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Eastern Airways! Here we go again, and as ever putting the record straight
jocko0102 We have other bases dear than HUY, and we happen to like our Jetstreams...at least our pilots can spell
skianyn vannin
What an odious toad you are...... as previously posted, FIS is not an option (look it up dear) We are extremely commercially minded (remember what business we are in sonny?) so time / fuel are very uppermost in our minds, but never at the expense of safety. Who won the award at EGCC as the most efficient airline? Yup, good old Eastern <hurrah!> Perhaps if your company thought a bit more about efficiency it wouldn't be in the position of being sold off as it is. Sitting around on your @r*+$ all day flying 300 hrs pa doesn't take much of a brain to work the sums out, does it? And negotiating a pay rise too? <chortle> Wake up. Perhaps if you worked a bit harder you would have less time to slag off colleagues of mine so irreverently. It's unprofessional, uncalled for and, frankly my dear, only exposes your own shortcomings. Eastern pilots have the highest credentials in training and / or experience and are very proud of it. You should have more respect. It's a small world. Perhaps you should be banished to fraggle rock. Serves you right.
ATC Sorry for returning to earlier comments so late but rather busy (unlike some!) Sorry that Pennine is less busy and therefore less challenging, but we all appreciate you guys heaps. It has been quite busy at times with the military. I remember one night there were 30 traffic alerts, all fighters.......... ATC were brilliant. Anyway the new routings are not too odious for us, but fine tuning needed I guess.
jocko0102 We have other bases dear than HUY, and we happen to like our Jetstreams...at least our pilots can spell
skianyn vannin
What an odious toad you are...... as previously posted, FIS is not an option (look it up dear) We are extremely commercially minded (remember what business we are in sonny?) so time / fuel are very uppermost in our minds, but never at the expense of safety. Who won the award at EGCC as the most efficient airline? Yup, good old Eastern <hurrah!> Perhaps if your company thought a bit more about efficiency it wouldn't be in the position of being sold off as it is. Sitting around on your @r*+$ all day flying 300 hrs pa doesn't take much of a brain to work the sums out, does it? And negotiating a pay rise too? <chortle> Wake up. Perhaps if you worked a bit harder you would have less time to slag off colleagues of mine so irreverently. It's unprofessional, uncalled for and, frankly my dear, only exposes your own shortcomings. Eastern pilots have the highest credentials in training and / or experience and are very proud of it. You should have more respect. It's a small world. Perhaps you should be banished to fraggle rock. Serves you right.
ATC Sorry for returning to earlier comments so late but rather busy (unlike some!) Sorry that Pennine is less busy and therefore less challenging, but we all appreciate you guys heaps. It has been quite busy at times with the military. I remember one night there were 30 traffic alerts, all fighters.......... ATC were brilliant. Anyway the new routings are not too odious for us, but fine tuning needed I guess.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Throw a Dyce
ScACC controllers are not allowed to give a RAS. There were too many incidents outside CAS and ScACC management decided that the maximum service available to traffic outside CAS was a RIS.
With the extra traffic that has been generated for the Tay sector flying inside CAS, and they are our primary task, there may be times of the day when the service given to aircraft outside the safety of an airway will be a FLIGHT INFORMATION SERVICE.
Will EZE and other airlines accept that level of service?
TUTH
ScACC controllers are not allowed to give a RAS. There were too many incidents outside CAS and ScACC management decided that the maximum service available to traffic outside CAS was a RIS.
With the extra traffic that has been generated for the Tay sector flying inside CAS, and they are our primary task, there may be times of the day when the service given to aircraft outside the safety of an airway will be a FLIGHT INFORMATION SERVICE.
Will EZE and other airlines accept that level of service?
TUTH
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Thanks to all for your replies.
It may be of interest to note that despite there being a reduced sector capacity for the first couple of weeks, the new sectors are not generating any delays.
We still have some operators filing some strange routes, but the recent NOTAM detailing which routes are preferred for the particular Oceanic entry points should soon sort that.
As for the problems at Aberdeen, where do I start ?
Firstly this project has been "on-the-go" for several years, and there is absolutely no excuse for your management not to have provided you with documentation well ahead of implimentation, the final draft of routes and procedures was available in January when our simulation started in Bournemouth.
The RIS/RAS situation has been explained regarding the constaints we are working under at ScACC, and now that we are working the Manchester TMA ins and outs at NEW, the Scottish TMA ins and outs at the same place, along with the traffic in P600 and on W3D, I would counter that the TAY sector is providing an excellent service to IFR aircraft in those areas, and those airlines that elect to fly in Class G airspace have to accept that we may not be able to provide ANY radar service at times.
Finally regarding the arrivals from Scottish Mil, nothing has changed regarding our notification of traffic to them, so it would appear that your gripe should be with their supervisor if you are continually receiving late estimates.
It may be of interest to note that despite there being a reduced sector capacity for the first couple of weeks, the new sectors are not generating any delays.
We still have some operators filing some strange routes, but the recent NOTAM detailing which routes are preferred for the particular Oceanic entry points should soon sort that.
As for the problems at Aberdeen, where do I start ?
Firstly this project has been "on-the-go" for several years, and there is absolutely no excuse for your management not to have provided you with documentation well ahead of implimentation, the final draft of routes and procedures was available in January when our simulation started in Bournemouth.
The RIS/RAS situation has been explained regarding the constaints we are working under at ScACC, and now that we are working the Manchester TMA ins and outs at NEW, the Scottish TMA ins and outs at the same place, along with the traffic in P600 and on W3D, I would counter that the TAY sector is providing an excellent service to IFR aircraft in those areas, and those airlines that elect to fly in Class G airspace have to accept that we may not be able to provide ANY radar service at times.
Finally regarding the arrivals from Scottish Mil, nothing has changed regarding our notification of traffic to them, so it would appear that your gripe should be with their supervisor if you are continually receiving late estimates.
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Plane*Jane-Don't worry about Jocko 0102 the guy is a half wit and not really worthy of reply.
Back to the subject matter- does this mean the end of VORs like OTR I can't see much use for it on the upper airspace routes?What else is it used for?
Back to the subject matter- does this mean the end of VORs like OTR I can't see much use for it on the upper airspace routes?What else is it used for?
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Back to the subject matter- does this mean the end of VORs like OTR I can't see much use for it on the upper airspace routes?What else is it used for?
You can't take OTR away! It's the only place I know on the East.
"There's only two points you ever need to know - OTR & BCN"
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Don't forget that BRNAV (and later PRNAV) requires the use of land based navaids to check accuracy, so we will continue to need VOR/DMEs for some time. So OTR is safe, if a little misplaced, at least until the CAA/JAA decide to go for 100pct GPS-based routes or approaches...
Watchdog Delta Hotel
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otr remains
the reason being ul602 is realigned new otr to stop you getting involved with the airforce involved in high energy tasks within the new danger area over the north sea which comes very close to the east coast
fambo remains for jane and her pals so that pennine don't have to force them on the white knuckle ride through the vale of york
the reason being ul602 is realigned new otr to stop you getting involved with the airforce involved in high energy tasks within the new danger area over the north sea which comes very close to the east coast
fambo remains for jane and her pals so that pennine don't have to force them on the white knuckle ride through the vale of york
