Iberia Flight Deck Security
Secret Squirrel ,
Don't be a twit! Max Tout is right and he hasn't suggested anything that a terrorist wouldn't have already learned before the lunch break on day 1 at Bin Liner's School of Terror. I'm sure they even know more ways that we could ever think of.
Don't be a twit! Max Tout is right and he hasn't suggested anything that a terrorist wouldn't have already learned before the lunch break on day 1 at Bin Liner's School of Terror. I'm sure they even know more ways that we could ever think of.
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Once upon a time folks were invited to have a look at what happens up front. Takes away the basic fear of flying. In todays world, come on, we might as well accept that no matter the safety measures, we all hang by a string...mathematical equations make it quite un-likely it could happen to me (or you) but then again, why not ?
Relax BA royalty, as Oscar Wilde said, " Liife is too serious to take too seriously."
Viva España and Peace on Earth
Relax BA royalty, as Oscar Wilde said, " Liife is too serious to take too seriously."
Viva España and Peace on Earth
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The last Iberia flight I was on (about 10mnths ago) from the USA to Madrid, the only time that the door actually got closed was about two minutes before a strong smell of cigarette smoke began to pervade the forward portion of the cabin.
Since this seemed to happen fairly frequently throughout the flight, I guess the security breach wasn't too serious overall.
Since this seemed to happen fairly frequently throughout the flight, I guess the security breach wasn't too serious overall.
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Just imagine
“I say Nigel, this locked door policy thingee is just top hole”
“Yes Timmy, I must agree. One feels so safe being locked-in behind it. That said, it’s a bit of a dry old job today isn’t it ?”
“Yes, I should cocoa”.
“Say what Timmy, rustle up a cup of something would you dear chap ?”
“No problem skipper........“
Sound of a ‘bing bong’ in the cabin… interphone starts being used…
“Hello Tracy here, did you ring oh lord and master ?”
“Yes, hello Tracey, Timmy here at the front, any chance of a cuppa ?”
“Well as it’s you Tim......... I’ll give you a call you on the interphone when it’s ready.”
A few moments later….. sound of a ‘Bong’ on the flightdeck.
“Hello, it’s Timmy here on the flightdeck”
“Hi Tim, it’s Tracey here at 1 left, can you unlock the door to let me in with your drinks.”
“Certainly dwarling”........ ‘click’ ( sound of electric lock being released ) “come on in.”
‘Clunk’ <- sound of door being unlocked…. Immediately followed by….’crash, bang wallop, kaplomb kapow’, plus women & pax screaming,......... etc
“I say, what the bloody hell. Who the hell are yougurglegushssshshhhh” <- sound of Timmy’s throat being slit, with Nigels soon to follow – of course the flightdeck door is now securely closed, locking-in both the pilots and assassins - preventing any assistance from the cabin !
So, I’m sure that you get my point in as much that the ‘so called’ locked flightdeck door policy is really nothing more than spin for the benefit of passengers !
And precisely why do I say that ?
Well, it’s because for all manner of ‘operational’ reasons we – the pilots - continue to keep opening it, and every time that we open it we’re vulnerable !
I.e. It doesn't take too much imagination to realise that some slip of a hostie / steward will not be any match against several highly trained ruthless people intent upon murder – should they ( the terrorists ) choose to attempt to storm the flight deck at the moment of the flightdeck door being opened.
And there's the rub, i.e. unless the flightdeck door is locked ALL of the time, we are just as vulnerable as the pilots on the 911 aircraft ( whose doors were mandated, under the FAR’s, to be locked ) on every occasion that we open the door to allow entry / egress the flightdeck.
Nb. I’ll admit that there are some exceptions to flightdeck door configurations which might alleviate this ‘risk’ ( e.g. what ElAl aircraft have fitted ) but the vast majority of airliners do not have such measures in place.
And why not ?
Well, because it’ll cost a LOT of money – so it’s hardly safety at any price, is it?!
Also, and w.r.t making the flightdeck door armoured to the extent that it can withstand a ballistic assault - what a crock of **** !
I.e. If JohnnyT managed to get a gun onboard and he/she wanted to ‘waste’ the Captain, they’d simply go in the forward toilet, point their piece forwards through the bulkhead ( remembering it’s made of thin aluminium ) and pull the trigger……. where the real point is that the areas either side the ‘armoured flightdeck door’ are NOT armoured.!
The analogy would be that it’s akin to wearing less than one third of a bulletproof vest.
So who still thinks that these ‘supposedly’ well thought through Government measures are designed to positively protect the flight crew at all cost, as opposed to being spin' aimed in the direction of passengers’ need to feel safe, to say nothing of any need to make it appear that certain Government mandarins are actually dealing with the situation ?!
All in all the response and measures that we’re seeing put in place onboard our aircraft are just as useless as the light tanks parked on the ‘perimeter road’ of LHR or LGW........ all whilst Johnny Terrorist is parked ( several miles away ) in the back of an open topped lorry directly under the departure / approach paths on the M25 / M23 and sporting a sophisticated shoulder launched SAM.
One feels duty bound to say that the ‘security’ measures we’re having imposed on us are really nothing more than ill-conceived Government b’locks. (imho)
“Yes Timmy, I must agree. One feels so safe being locked-in behind it. That said, it’s a bit of a dry old job today isn’t it ?”
“Yes, I should cocoa”.
“Say what Timmy, rustle up a cup of something would you dear chap ?”
“No problem skipper........“
Sound of a ‘bing bong’ in the cabin… interphone starts being used…
“Hello Tracy here, did you ring oh lord and master ?”
“Yes, hello Tracey, Timmy here at the front, any chance of a cuppa ?”
“Well as it’s you Tim......... I’ll give you a call you on the interphone when it’s ready.”
A few moments later….. sound of a ‘Bong’ on the flightdeck.
“Hello, it’s Timmy here on the flightdeck”
“Hi Tim, it’s Tracey here at 1 left, can you unlock the door to let me in with your drinks.”
“Certainly dwarling”........ ‘click’ ( sound of electric lock being released ) “come on in.”
‘Clunk’ <- sound of door being unlocked…. Immediately followed by….’crash, bang wallop, kaplomb kapow’, plus women & pax screaming,......... etc
“I say, what the bloody hell. Who the hell are yougurglegushssshshhhh” <- sound of Timmy’s throat being slit, with Nigels soon to follow – of course the flightdeck door is now securely closed, locking-in both the pilots and assassins - preventing any assistance from the cabin !
So, I’m sure that you get my point in as much that the ‘so called’ locked flightdeck door policy is really nothing more than spin for the benefit of passengers !
And precisely why do I say that ?
Well, it’s because for all manner of ‘operational’ reasons we – the pilots - continue to keep opening it, and every time that we open it we’re vulnerable !
I.e. It doesn't take too much imagination to realise that some slip of a hostie / steward will not be any match against several highly trained ruthless people intent upon murder – should they ( the terrorists ) choose to attempt to storm the flight deck at the moment of the flightdeck door being opened.
And there's the rub, i.e. unless the flightdeck door is locked ALL of the time, we are just as vulnerable as the pilots on the 911 aircraft ( whose doors were mandated, under the FAR’s, to be locked ) on every occasion that we open the door to allow entry / egress the flightdeck.
Nb. I’ll admit that there are some exceptions to flightdeck door configurations which might alleviate this ‘risk’ ( e.g. what ElAl aircraft have fitted ) but the vast majority of airliners do not have such measures in place.
And why not ?
Well, because it’ll cost a LOT of money – so it’s hardly safety at any price, is it?!
Also, and w.r.t making the flightdeck door armoured to the extent that it can withstand a ballistic assault - what a crock of **** !
I.e. If JohnnyT managed to get a gun onboard and he/she wanted to ‘waste’ the Captain, they’d simply go in the forward toilet, point their piece forwards through the bulkhead ( remembering it’s made of thin aluminium ) and pull the trigger……. where the real point is that the areas either side the ‘armoured flightdeck door’ are NOT armoured.!
The analogy would be that it’s akin to wearing less than one third of a bulletproof vest.
So who still thinks that these ‘supposedly’ well thought through Government measures are designed to positively protect the flight crew at all cost, as opposed to being spin' aimed in the direction of passengers’ need to feel safe, to say nothing of any need to make it appear that certain Government mandarins are actually dealing with the situation ?!
All in all the response and measures that we’re seeing put in place onboard our aircraft are just as useless as the light tanks parked on the ‘perimeter road’ of LHR or LGW........ all whilst Johnny Terrorist is parked ( several miles away ) in the back of an open topped lorry directly under the departure / approach paths on the M25 / M23 and sporting a sophisticated shoulder launched SAM.
One feels duty bound to say that the ‘security’ measures we’re having imposed on us are really nothing more than ill-conceived Government b’locks. (imho)
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Its quite simple . The brits love a rule, especially a pointless one.
flying in uk is 9 parts regulation ,one part aviation.I choose to operate here at the moment so i'll follow the rules. when i'm made redundant due to the cost of insalling type two doors then i''l foxtrot off and fly in the other countries where they didnt install the doors and just night stop in this country.
dont even get me started on the jar back door that belittles our hard won qualifications. ie if one regulation cant be enforced (as above), god knows whats going on in licencing.
A bit off topic but another example of nonsense.
1,third world licence obtained. (guess how)
2, forge logbook.
3, usa atp rating
4, cheap 2 week 737 course , in states.
5, re forge logbook.
6, either get validation in "europe" or join european airline with "contacts" with validation, sit around long enuff , sympathetic ear , and finally,
7 jar member state licence.
(substitute all of the above with the following<
1 agree to close/install doors as per joint regulation
2 dont do it
3 erm thats it
this route exists so as long as we cant audit our partners its all a bunch of b.s. whether licencing or security. personnal choice to stay or go, but if you stay do it properly.
I must get out more
flying in uk is 9 parts regulation ,one part aviation.I choose to operate here at the moment so i'll follow the rules. when i'm made redundant due to the cost of insalling type two doors then i''l foxtrot off and fly in the other countries where they didnt install the doors and just night stop in this country.
dont even get me started on the jar back door that belittles our hard won qualifications. ie if one regulation cant be enforced (as above), god knows whats going on in licencing.
A bit off topic but another example of nonsense.
1,third world licence obtained. (guess how)
2, forge logbook.
3, usa atp rating
4, cheap 2 week 737 course , in states.
5, re forge logbook.
6, either get validation in "europe" or join european airline with "contacts" with validation, sit around long enuff , sympathetic ear , and finally,
7 jar member state licence.
(substitute all of the above with the following<
1 agree to close/install doors as per joint regulation
2 dont do it
3 erm thats it
this route exists so as long as we cant audit our partners its all a bunch of b.s. whether licencing or security. personnal choice to stay or go, but if you stay do it properly.
I must get out more
Thread Starter
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Thanks for that, Devils Advocate. Actually I believe your user name is inappropriate here. Just about everybody agrees with you. (Standby for flood of protest!)
It sums up, in a somewhat humorous way, the way many of us (in UK) view the whole subject. The problem is that we heed our petty minded bureaucrats whilst others just shrug their shoulders and get on with the job.
It sums up, in a somewhat humorous way, the way many of us (in UK) view the whole subject. The problem is that we heed our petty minded bureaucrats whilst others just shrug their shoulders and get on with the job.
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Oh no Avman, I beg to differ! You see Bin Liner just tells them to read Pprune now, it's easier. There are so many idiots on it that they're actually doing his work for him. You see, why spend valuable time and money travelling the world's airlines to discover chinks in their armour when you have people who employ simple-minded logic like yours and give you all the information for free? And guess what? it also means that the thing doesn't really have to be planned because some have-a-go idiot hoping to ingratiate himself before the New Religious Nazi Party will probably do it anyway.
Great reasoning there, Avman: did you go to University to learn to be so ignorant? because you certainly demonstrate degree level. Are you seriously suggesting that it's OK to give specific details, with names, about security issues (or more to the point, lack thereof) on a public forum, citing the reasoning that it's only info they could gather anyway? If you can, just stop and think about how crass that is.
By the same token you could begin a thread about places to hide devices on different types of aircraft. Why not? We'd get to be more vigilant about our own aircraft and it doesn't really matter that a potential terrorist sees it because he or she could always have found out anyway.
Streuth, Avman, I didn't say that Max was wrong, I just said that publicising a particular airline's shortfalls in security on a public forum was not a very good idea. RTF Post!
Great reasoning there, Avman: did you go to University to learn to be so ignorant? because you certainly demonstrate degree level. Are you seriously suggesting that it's OK to give specific details, with names, about security issues (or more to the point, lack thereof) on a public forum, citing the reasoning that it's only info they could gather anyway? If you can, just stop and think about how crass that is.
By the same token you could begin a thread about places to hide devices on different types of aircraft. Why not? We'd get to be more vigilant about our own aircraft and it doesn't really matter that a potential terrorist sees it because he or she could always have found out anyway.
Streuth, Avman, I didn't say that Max was wrong, I just said that publicising a particular airline's shortfalls in security on a public forum was not a very good idea. RTF Post!
Last edited by Secret Squirrel; 16th Feb 2003 at 23:44.
Security by Obscurity
There's all sorts of hacked computer systems out there relying on Security by Obscurity that provide free practice to the script kiddies.
But given that bin Liner & Co showed enough brain cells to pull off 9/11 (locked cockpit door policy and all), it is safer to assume they can figure out the same holes we can.
If we keep these holes quiet, then one day some unlucky crew and pax will find out the hard way.
Jumping air crew on the way back in and locking yourself behind a "secure" door doesn't take much in the way of imagination.
What frightens me is the apparent willful blindness of the security establishment to this obvious scenario.
It's gotta be a double door, preferably before the live demonstration
But given that bin Liner & Co showed enough brain cells to pull off 9/11 (locked cockpit door policy and all), it is safer to assume they can figure out the same holes we can.
If we keep these holes quiet, then one day some unlucky crew and pax will find out the hard way.
Jumping air crew on the way back in and locking yourself behind a "secure" door doesn't take much in the way of imagination.
What frightens me is the apparent willful blindness of the security establishment to this obvious scenario.
It's gotta be a double door, preferably before the live demonstration
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Keeping reality in focus
No dispute with you MaxTout...but let´s not lose focus on the real problem at stake...Bush-Blair-Aznar, hungry hawks after fuel...locked doors ? Laughable...
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Taken from behind now!?!?
Oh, so now I'm expecting a bullet in the back of my head through the bog wall, how am I expected to sleep!
16mths now post 911 with many airlines just in the process of fitting new 'secure' doors....it only took weeks to announce redundancies. Thankfully they were sharp enough to take away our nail files and steel cutlery, leaving us our butane lighters.
But something surely has to be done. However unlikely, the bin bast**ds only have to be lucky once so why give them better odds. The door is flawed, but it must be better than the ones that sprung open on take off allowing the sandwiches, papers & water bottles to escape down the ailse?
All airlines are vunerable, not just the ones mentioned. In the twisted mind of bin whoeverhemaybe, the plane is the tool to get the target and a hit is a hit regardless of the tail paint.
Agreed, the new doors do present new CRM issues which have to be addressed. Just saying 'your not coming in, go away..I've got a phone and I know how to use it', probably won't help much.
Maybe the door is ill conceive and just a PR ex, but it could be made a more effective deterent if we try and make it work. It's probably all we'll get, you can forget getting our own galley and bogs..................
16mths now post 911 with many airlines just in the process of fitting new 'secure' doors....it only took weeks to announce redundancies. Thankfully they were sharp enough to take away our nail files and steel cutlery, leaving us our butane lighters.
But something surely has to be done. However unlikely, the bin bast**ds only have to be lucky once so why give them better odds. The door is flawed, but it must be better than the ones that sprung open on take off allowing the sandwiches, papers & water bottles to escape down the ailse?
All airlines are vunerable, not just the ones mentioned. In the twisted mind of bin whoeverhemaybe, the plane is the tool to get the target and a hit is a hit regardless of the tail paint.
Agreed, the new doors do present new CRM issues which have to be addressed. Just saying 'your not coming in, go away..I've got a phone and I know how to use it', probably won't help much.
Maybe the door is ill conceive and just a PR ex, but it could be made a more effective deterent if we try and make it work. It's probably all we'll get, you can forget getting our own galley and bogs..................
