The "In Charge"
Thread Starter
Uncle Pete
Joined: Jul 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 915
Likes: 0
From: Frodsham Cheshire
The "In Charge"
An intersting article in CHIRPs describes the chain of command as perceived by the cabin crew.
The "In Charge" rules aft of the flight-deck door. The pilots are merely there to get the aircraft from A to B. This is not an isolated incident.
A very experienced senior cabin crew member grudgingly admitted that the Captain may be in command, followed by the "In Charge" and lastly the two First Officers (a long haul flight) "just learning".
I've come across this culture in the 80s but not recently and am intrigued to learn why this perception has resurrected itself? A knock-on from the locked flight-deck door perhaps?
For the uninitiated the "In Charge" is the Senior Cabin Attendant
MP
The "In Charge" rules aft of the flight-deck door. The pilots are merely there to get the aircraft from A to B. This is not an isolated incident.
A very experienced senior cabin crew member grudgingly admitted that the Captain may be in command, followed by the "In Charge" and lastly the two First Officers (a long haul flight) "just learning".
I've come across this culture in the 80s but not recently and am intrigued to learn why this perception has resurrected itself? A knock-on from the locked flight-deck door perhaps?
For the uninitiated the "In Charge" is the Senior Cabin Attendant
MP
Last edited by MaximumPete; 5th February 2003 at 17:13.
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
For those of you who may not see the CHIRP publication the article ended with the story of the First Officer transfering any airworthy defects from the Cabin Defect Log to the Aircraft Tech Log.
There was a defect raised by "In Charge" in the Cabin Defect Log.......
Two BCF fire extinguisers used at the rear of the aircraft.
On enquiring he discovered that there had been an oven fire but the "In Charge" decided it was not necessary to inform the flight crew!!
There was a defect raised by "In Charge" in the Cabin Defect Log.......
Two BCF fire extinguisers used at the rear of the aircraft.
On enquiring he discovered that there had been an oven fire but the "In Charge" decided it was not necessary to inform the flight crew!!
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 248
Likes: 28
From: care home for redundant has beens
Anyone with knowledge of the company will of course realise that the incident refers to British Airways. Its not uncommon for Cabin Service Directors/ Pursurs to think they have more power than the Captain.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yep,
Read it this morning and couldn't believe my eyes.
In my humble opinion sacking the 'In charge' in question will not solve the problem. This looks like it stems from the top and a change of cabin crew training + top cabin crew management is what's needed.
Then again I don't work for BA so have no first hand experience of this - after reading this I don't think I want to either.
Read it this morning and couldn't believe my eyes.
In my humble opinion sacking the 'In charge' in question will not solve the problem. This looks like it stems from the top and a change of cabin crew training + top cabin crew management is what's needed.
Then again I don't work for BA so have no first hand experience of this - after reading this I don't think I want to either.
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
I remember sitting behind two females in the crew transport, a Purser and newly promoted CSD. The CSD was explaining the step from Purser to CSD. "The difference from being a Purser is at the end of the day any problem on the aircraft is your problem, there is nobody else on the aircraft to turn to. It’s your problem and you have to sort it"
What example does this set for junior cabin crew when some CSD's put themselves on such a pedestal?
On a similar vein of setting a good example, new cabin crew entrants during their training are encouraged to remember the location of fire extinguishers in the 757 flight deck by the following.....
"The water is behind the w**ker and the BCF is behind the b**tard".
Alas it will NEVER change.
What example does this set for junior cabin crew when some CSD's put themselves on such a pedestal?
On a similar vein of setting a good example, new cabin crew entrants during their training are encouraged to remember the location of fire extinguishers in the 757 flight deck by the following.....
"The water is behind the w**ker and the BCF is behind the b**tard".
Alas it will NEVER change.
Eight Gun Fighter
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
From: Western Approaches
Got to admit I've never seen this attitude on the flights I've flown. Admittedly mostly with my own mob(s). Sure, have run into the king of the cabin once or twice but Captain rules. Next are First and Second officers to avoid annoying anyone.
Cabin staff get the emergency training - get to use it very, very rarely. Know the safety speil backwards. Most of the work is feeding and thinking about how to spend the lay-over. Most are not familiar with the concept of conducting a complex event in a dangerous environment, or even how machines can fly. Most, I say, for there are some top notch FAs.
Cabin staff get the emergency training - get to use it very, very rarely. Know the safety speil backwards. Most of the work is feeding and thinking about how to spend the lay-over. Most are not familiar with the concept of conducting a complex event in a dangerous environment, or even how machines can fly. Most, I say, for there are some top notch FAs.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
Should be handled accordingly...
While deadheading on a Continental flight (B707, long ago), one of the pax came up for a visit (told you it was long ago...) and informed the Captain that the InFlight Supervisor had told him that HE was in charge of the flight.
The Captain summoned the chap and asked him (yes, a boy) if he knew where the nose of the aeroplane was.
The fellow says..."well, yes Captain".
Captain says..."just to be sure, look down, way down over the glareshield to be sure.
IFS does so and says he sees the nose of the aeroplane.
Captain mentions...."do you KNOW where the white light at the tail is?"
IFS replies in the affirmative.
Captain says...."in between those two places, it belongs to ME, every thing else is yours...now get your skinny @ss back in the cabin and keep your mouth SHUT".
IFS retreats...without a word.
Worked like a charm.
While deadheading on a Continental flight (B707, long ago), one of the pax came up for a visit (told you it was long ago...) and informed the Captain that the InFlight Supervisor had told him that HE was in charge of the flight.
The Captain summoned the chap and asked him (yes, a boy) if he knew where the nose of the aeroplane was.
The fellow says..."well, yes Captain".
Captain says..."just to be sure, look down, way down over the glareshield to be sure.
IFS does so and says he sees the nose of the aeroplane.
Captain mentions...."do you KNOW where the white light at the tail is?"
IFS replies in the affirmative.
Captain says...."in between those two places, it belongs to ME, every thing else is yours...now get your skinny @ss back in the cabin and keep your mouth SHUT".
IFS retreats...without a word.
Worked like a charm.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
From: Europe
All of the above clearly shows that CRM is just a buzz-word.
Every year at the refresher we pay lip service to it. In some enlightened companies the course combines F/D and F/A members. We answer all the questions and do our group exercises. Thereafter it's a free for all.
Of course the Ops Manual Part A clearly states the chain of command on board an aircraft. Obviously many Cabin Crew members do not even read it. (or perhaps do not have access to it?)
I think it is about time that airline managements and regulatory bodies tackle the issues raised, especially cases like the cabin fire mentioned.
Having said all that, I have flown with many good No1's whom I would like to have with me if something was to go wrong. The lives of the pax, the crew and indeed myself might depend on it.
Hopefully we can shift that 'Them and Us' attitude. Let's do it!!
Every year at the refresher we pay lip service to it. In some enlightened companies the course combines F/D and F/A members. We answer all the questions and do our group exercises. Thereafter it's a free for all.
Of course the Ops Manual Part A clearly states the chain of command on board an aircraft. Obviously many Cabin Crew members do not even read it. (or perhaps do not have access to it?)
I think it is about time that airline managements and regulatory bodies tackle the issues raised, especially cases like the cabin fire mentioned.
Having said all that, I have flown with many good No1's whom I would like to have with me if something was to go wrong. The lives of the pax, the crew and indeed myself might depend on it.
Hopefully we can shift that 'Them and Us' attitude. Let's do it!!
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 3,585
Likes: 0
From: UK
I'm a male "In charge" but for another UK airline (charter with a big grin!).
I have no illusions about the chain of command - nor does any other "In charge" that I have met: Commander, F/O, then us. I only mention this because I have a suspicion that this problem is one that is specific to a particular large British airline, rather than a widespread one amongst the industry. At least that's my perception.
That said, I do have a concern about the volume, and quality, of communications thru a locked flight deck door: I'm not suggesting that we don't lock the door, but I believe that more concentration by the legislative authorities needs to be applied to the communications issues that arise as a result.
I have no illusions about the chain of command - nor does any other "In charge" that I have met: Commander, F/O, then us. I only mention this because I have a suspicion that this problem is one that is specific to a particular large British airline, rather than a widespread one amongst the industry. At least that's my perception.
That said, I do have a concern about the volume, and quality, of communications thru a locked flight deck door: I'm not suggesting that we don't lock the door, but I believe that more concentration by the legislative authorities needs to be applied to the communications issues that arise as a result.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
From: A Travelling Man
If two BCFs can be fired off down the back then it is my guess that long before it was time to fill out the tech log most of the CC would have known. The fact that no one saw fit to tell the captain, particularly the CSD, indicates to me that a serious cancer has set in to the lines of communication and the chain of command in that company and urgently needs to be sorted.
One CC not knowing the form is possible but an entire crew is unacceptable, in my opinion.
One CC not knowing the form is possible but an entire crew is unacceptable, in my opinion.
Thread Starter
Uncle Pete
Joined: Jul 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 915
Likes: 0
From: Frodsham Cheshire
woodpecker
Why do you say the culture will never change?
My late employers spent a lot of time, money and expertise to eradicate the problems thay had in the 80s. It can be done!!
If there is a will within the management structure, and I'm assuming we are talking about BA, something must be done. Under JAR-Ops the responsibility must rest with the CEO or responsible person.
I remember an Air Canada DC9 with a toilet fire when the flight-deck were blissfully unaware of the severity of the fire until it's too late.
Let's hope history does not repeat itself with regards to the CRM issues.
MP
Why do you say the culture will never change?
My late employers spent a lot of time, money and expertise to eradicate the problems thay had in the 80s. It can be done!!
If there is a will within the management structure, and I'm assuming we are talking about BA, something must be done. Under JAR-Ops the responsibility must rest with the CEO or responsible person.
I remember an Air Canada DC9 with a toilet fire when the flight-deck were blissfully unaware of the severity of the fire until it's too late.
Let's hope history does not repeat itself with regards to the CRM issues.
MP
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
From: venus
Pete
Was it not your late employers who set up a system of negative checks from Cabin Crew?
For the understanding of others, there was NO landing check, for instance, given to Flight Deck as long as all was well in the cabin. This procedure was introduced at a time when Ops management was particularly cavalier and was only rescinded as an SOP under extreme pressure from the CAA.
Whilst not liking it, the Pilots meekly accepted this state of affairs!
oscar
Was it not your late employers who set up a system of negative checks from Cabin Crew?
For the understanding of others, there was NO landing check, for instance, given to Flight Deck as long as all was well in the cabin. This procedure was introduced at a time when Ops management was particularly cavalier and was only rescinded as an SOP under extreme pressure from the CAA.
Whilst not liking it, the Pilots meekly accepted this state of affairs!
oscar
Thread Starter
Uncle Pete
Joined: Jul 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 915
Likes: 0
From: Frodsham Cheshire
oscar,
As far as I can recall, and in some people's eyes I'm only one step from my basket, we used to have an indicator on the pedestal.
This was an aide memoire that the cabin was secure for take-off and secure for landing. The cabin crew would come in and either tell you or move the little "widget" or both.
There may well have been a time when there was no cabin status reporting but sense and reason has prevailed and the shortcomings rectified.
Let's hope the "In Charges" are re-educated ASAP.
MP
As far as I can recall, and in some people's eyes I'm only one step from my basket, we used to have an indicator on the pedestal.
This was an aide memoire that the cabin was secure for take-off and secure for landing. The cabin crew would come in and either tell you or move the little "widget" or both.
There may well have been a time when there was no cabin status reporting but sense and reason has prevailed and the shortcomings rectified.
Let's hope the "In Charges" are re-educated ASAP.
MP
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
From: West Country
I agree with what everyone has said previuosly - the flight deck crew should be kept informed of any unusual incident. However I am not sure that this lack of communication will be improved now that the flight deck is barred and bolted and cut off from the rest of the aircraft - it doesn't do much for a 'team' spirit amongst all the crew.
I was rather more concerned about the following story where the captain decided to operate a full commercial flight with one emergency exit u/s. The Captain in question did not agree with the cabin crew that the door was u/s and the flight should be operated under MEL conditions. As someone who has 'locked out' many doors over the years I have to say that I have never come across any member of the flight deck crew who would countenance such a course of action. Are the commercial pressures on flight crew now getting to the point where basic safety issues are now no longer the primary consideration?
I was rather more concerned about the following story where the captain decided to operate a full commercial flight with one emergency exit u/s. The Captain in question did not agree with the cabin crew that the door was u/s and the flight should be operated under MEL conditions. As someone who has 'locked out' many doors over the years I have to say that I have never come across any member of the flight deck crew who would countenance such a course of action. Are the commercial pressures on flight crew now getting to the point where basic safety issues are now no longer the primary consideration?
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
From: venus
Jet 11
Unless you are able to give details of the defect, one would have to say that the Captain was probably right because it would have been his assesment, in the absence of an approved engineer, that the door was indeed u/s.
The door need not neccesarily have to be working in a convenient (to Cabin Crew) way for it to be properly operable in an emergency situation and, having had it reported to him, I am sure that the Captain would have taken these circumstances into consideration before taking the decision to go.
The combination of expediency and professionalism as practised by a Captain is a very fine line indeed, which is easy to occasionally misinterprate as dangerous by the misinformed or ignorant.
Shout "safety" and too many people duck for cover instead of being objective. It's called arse-covering in some circles.
oscar
Unless you are able to give details of the defect, one would have to say that the Captain was probably right because it would have been his assesment, in the absence of an approved engineer, that the door was indeed u/s.
The door need not neccesarily have to be working in a convenient (to Cabin Crew) way for it to be properly operable in an emergency situation and, having had it reported to him, I am sure that the Captain would have taken these circumstances into consideration before taking the decision to go.
The combination of expediency and professionalism as practised by a Captain is a very fine line indeed, which is easy to occasionally misinterprate as dangerous by the misinformed or ignorant.
Shout "safety" and too many people duck for cover instead of being objective. It's called arse-covering in some circles.
oscar