airlines and morale
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Roobarb
Absolutely spot on, one of our biggest problems is management and lets face it, managing people is not rocket science its good old common sense, unfortunately seriously lacking in the 21st century.
When was the last time you saw any of your management team, when was the last time you saw the manager of your aircraft handling company when things went seriously wrong on the ground, I think the guy we deal with is permanently welded to his office seat.
Very often all these issues have little to do with wages, I would just like other people involved with aviation to take as much resonsibility for their jobs as I am expected to do with mine.
Once the aircraft becomes airborne all problems disappear or rather all problems become mine and my colleagues and we are well trained and responsible enough to deal with them. Its just a shame I have to come back down again.
Absolutely spot on, one of our biggest problems is management and lets face it, managing people is not rocket science its good old common sense, unfortunately seriously lacking in the 21st century.
When was the last time you saw any of your management team, when was the last time you saw the manager of your aircraft handling company when things went seriously wrong on the ground, I think the guy we deal with is permanently welded to his office seat.
Very often all these issues have little to do with wages, I would just like other people involved with aviation to take as much resonsibility for their jobs as I am expected to do with mine.
Once the aircraft becomes airborne all problems disappear or rather all problems become mine and my colleagues and we are well trained and responsible enough to deal with them. Its just a shame I have to come back down again.
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There has always been a problem with the "suits", looking at the flying hours that the company pilots achieve and then complaining along the lines of "so much pay and so little time at work".
Try running a comparison between the hours that management work and the length of time their company cars are in their allocated parking slot. It will be around 1:1.
Then compared the flying hours that the crews put in and the length of time their own car has to be in the airport parking to achieve those hours. It will be around 1:2.
Try running a comparison between the hours that management work and the length of time their company cars are in their allocated parking slot. It will be around 1:1.
Then compared the flying hours that the crews put in and the length of time their own car has to be in the airport parking to achieve those hours. It will be around 1:2.
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As Virgin Atlantic have just had their 4th pay offer rejected by BALPA, you way want to ask some Virgin pilots how low morale is at the moment. It couldn't get lower.
Meetings arranged for this weekend to move the process to the next stage, Industrial action.
Meetings arranged for this weekend to move the process to the next stage, Industrial action.
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Whilst I agree that many of our problems are management created...the true irony is that most of the people managing us are pilots or ex-pilots!
In my company the FOM is a pilot, so are all his negotiators, so is the dork who does our crew planning (including leave and seniority), and now the CEO is also an ex-pilot!!
And they are screwing us.
Yes, pilots are whingers...and backstabbers, and social climbers, and ambitious b'stards who climb over each others dead bodies to get to the top of the mucky pile.
Having a bad day today. Sorry.
In my company the FOM is a pilot, so are all his negotiators, so is the dork who does our crew planning (including leave and seniority), and now the CEO is also an ex-pilot!!
And they are screwing us.
Yes, pilots are whingers...and backstabbers, and social climbers, and ambitious b'stards who climb over each others dead bodies to get to the top of the mucky pile.
Having a bad day today. Sorry.
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I have extensive experience with a UK major airline in both the longhaul and shorthaul evironments. Each can be as bad as the other fatigue wise. For example:
..and on, and on. All that, and you have a beer to wind down of an evening and are a criminal, when the greater threat to the safety of your passengers is the fact that sometimes you can hardly keep your eyes open. All this is a major airline remember.. the guys who fly for CAP 371 operators and the freight jocks can have it worse.
Yeah, it's a glamorous job indeed. Knowing what I know now, I don't think I'd do it again... it's been great, met wonderful people and seen sights and sounds that most of humanity don't get to. But it's just not worth it unless you can have control over your life, and that we do not have.
- NASA research indicates that rest downroute should not be rostered between 18 and 36 hours, as the body does not have time to complete sufficient sleep cycles. So what is the average rest time on a transatlantic? Yep.. 24 hours. Ready for the next sleep pattern as you report, and I have come off the Atlantic ocean into a busy ATC environment trading on adrenalin more times than I care to remember. And then there's the drive home...
- In shorthaul, multiple early starts, long duty days, minimum rest in the hotel and a 6-on/ 2-off pattern have a debilitating, cumulative effect. Social life is next to impossible on the 2 off, as they are essentially recovery days... factor in the added pressure that brings to bear from relationship stress and, well....
- The complete lack of protection between west/east integrations in longhaul.. To come from a 3-day Dubai on day, and operate a 3-day New York next makes it impossible to try to plan a sensible rest pattern.
- Locked cockpit door, the knowledge that anyone enters your cockpit to take over the aircraft and you are likely going to die, increasingly invasive and utterly pointless searches at security (vis.. they make me take my shoes off, when all I really need to do to down an airliner is stick that foot out in the cruise,) inability to take family on trips any more as no way can you guarantee their return as you used to on the jumpseat... all adds a little bit to the stress bucket.
..and on, and on. All that, and you have a beer to wind down of an evening and are a criminal, when the greater threat to the safety of your passengers is the fact that sometimes you can hardly keep your eyes open. All this is a major airline remember.. the guys who fly for CAP 371 operators and the freight jocks can have it worse.
Yeah, it's a glamorous job indeed. Knowing what I know now, I don't think I'd do it again... it's been great, met wonderful people and seen sights and sounds that most of humanity don't get to. But it's just not worth it unless you can have control over your life, and that we do not have.
Thanks, Mark, for at least being honest.
Maybe you'll get some takers because, be in no doubt, there is a BIG STORY here.
I can only suggest that you read again carefully all the contributions to this thread, particularly those of Roobarb and Rat 5.
As has been said, this is not about money. Its about ravaged quality of life, persistent tiredness and not even the slightest hint of gratitude at the end of the day.
I've been in this game for well over thirty years and, although salaries rise, the penalties have become ever more corrosive. Unfortunately the CAA don't help as they bend or blatantly ignore what some airline managements are up to.
It wasn't until I'd been out of it for a couple of years that I realised it had been slowly but surely affecting my health and well-being.
One thing's for sure; there is a definite degree of jealousy from the suits
that affects any of their dealings with pilots. When we sort out the "attitudes" problem ( on both sides, btw.) we might be part-way there.
Just a few thoughts.
Sleeve.
Maybe you'll get some takers because, be in no doubt, there is a BIG STORY here.
I can only suggest that you read again carefully all the contributions to this thread, particularly those of Roobarb and Rat 5.
As has been said, this is not about money. Its about ravaged quality of life, persistent tiredness and not even the slightest hint of gratitude at the end of the day.
I've been in this game for well over thirty years and, although salaries rise, the penalties have become ever more corrosive. Unfortunately the CAA don't help as they bend or blatantly ignore what some airline managements are up to.
It wasn't until I'd been out of it for a couple of years that I realised it had been slowly but surely affecting my health and well-being.
One thing's for sure; there is a definite degree of jealousy from the suits
that affects any of their dealings with pilots. When we sort out the "attitudes" problem ( on both sides, btw.) we might be part-way there.
Just a few thoughts.
Sleeve.
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Isnt it amazing how seriously some of our number take them selves when they get into their seats at the front and are cuckooed from the rest of the world. Remember guys, if the toilet man does not dump the toilets we are not going anywhere! Everyone is equally important until you get off the ground.
Last edited by Rolling Stone; 30th Jan 2003 at 16:24.
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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Yes we know that the operation to prepare an a/c for flight involves a lot of people but Rolling Stone, this thread is about fatigue and its effect on flight crew morale. If you can't even use the correct word for cocooned then please stick to dumping your lavs and bog off (pun intended).
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Idunno
Well welcome to the real world - it is exactly the same in every other walk of life. Bad management is enedemic throughout UK industry - I seem to remember a survey by the FT last year that put UK management competancy in about 30th place for industrialised nations.
Roobarb
What have you done this year to deserve a bonus of Ģ100K? - this computer guy may have invented the wheel! - and as for being a pauper, you are only a pauper if you compare yourself to professions paying more. Are you a pauper compared to Teachers, Doctors, Social Workers etc.?
The original Idea of this thread was about fatigue - this has very serious concerns on flight safety and to try to hijack the thread into a winge about T&C's is wrong. The sort of rota at Easy which gives a 7 on 2 off is something that the licensing authorities should be looking into very seriously.
As for morale - this is a rock bottom throughout the industry and will only improve when the industry picks up - which it will eventually.
Yes, pilots are whingers...and backstabbers, and social climbers, and ambitious b'stards who climb over each others dead bodies to get to the top of the mucky pile.
Roobarb
the annual bonus which for one computer nerd round the corner was Ģ100k last year. That makes me the pauper of the neighbourhood.
The original Idea of this thread was about fatigue - this has very serious concerns on flight safety and to try to hijack the thread into a winge about T&C's is wrong. The sort of rota at Easy which gives a 7 on 2 off is something that the licensing authorities should be looking into very seriously.
As for morale - this is a rock bottom throughout the industry and will only improve when the industry picks up - which it will eventually.
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Another Angle
What about the other peolpe flying in and out of our airspace?
I understand that Italian FTL's allow an IRS equipped aircraft with 3 pilots aboard to be on duty for up to 24 hours. This does not take into account preceeding rest periods, acclimatisation, number of sectors or time of start. To say this is an accident waiting to happen is an understatement.
Apparently the third pilot need not be able to land the aircraft, just hold a type rating. I suppose the IRS's are a requirement so that when the 3 pilots do fall asleep, the aircraft will still head in the direction it was meant to!
This is a very big story worldwide but how can there be such variation across Europe where unity rules and JAA has taken hold?
I understand that Italian FTL's allow an IRS equipped aircraft with 3 pilots aboard to be on duty for up to 24 hours. This does not take into account preceeding rest periods, acclimatisation, number of sectors or time of start. To say this is an accident waiting to happen is an understatement.
Apparently the third pilot need not be able to land the aircraft, just hold a type rating. I suppose the IRS's are a requirement so that when the 3 pilots do fall asleep, the aircraft will still head in the direction it was meant to!
This is a very big story worldwide but how can there be such variation across Europe where unity rules and JAA has taken hold?
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yes, I'll post a copy next week and any criticisms welcomed. So many issues have become apparent since my original post that I won't be able to do justice to all of them in one go.
However, I'd like to return to safety issues, pay, working conditions, etc over the coming weeks and months and hope this weekends article will give some of you confidence to deal with me in the future.
regards
Mark
However, I'd like to return to safety issues, pay, working conditions, etc over the coming weeks and months and hope this weekends article will give some of you confidence to deal with me in the future.
regards
Mark
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Jet 11
"Morale will improve when the industry picks up."
Popycock. Management will always have an excuse.
1. Next year will not be as good as this bumper year, so there are no rewards because we need to tighten the belt in preparation. (and of course, even after the next year is OK, they use the same argument.) It's,like the pub sign that says. "free beer tomorrow."
followed by:
2. We are expanding and recruiting, but we have to be very cost cautious. We are undercrewed for our expansion so you all have to work harder. The company will strengthen, but slowly.
followed by:
3. See 1.
It's called cycles, and the only guys who seem to benefit are the suits who award themselves bonuses for a short-term rise in the profits on the back of everyone elses efforts. Once the next dip comes the bonuses are not repaid even though the slight improvement was only virtual reality. Someone said 'real world', perhaps, but it needs changing!
"Morale will improve when the industry picks up."
Popycock. Management will always have an excuse.
1. Next year will not be as good as this bumper year, so there are no rewards because we need to tighten the belt in preparation. (and of course, even after the next year is OK, they use the same argument.) It's,like the pub sign that says. "free beer tomorrow."
followed by:
2. We are expanding and recruiting, but we have to be very cost cautious. We are undercrewed for our expansion so you all have to work harder. The company will strengthen, but slowly.
followed by:
3. See 1.
It's called cycles, and the only guys who seem to benefit are the suits who award themselves bonuses for a short-term rise in the profits on the back of everyone elses efforts. Once the next dip comes the bonuses are not repaid even though the slight improvement was only virtual reality. Someone said 'real world', perhaps, but it needs changing!
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A great quote by Dwight D Eisenhower appeared in the paper recently. It went something like this;
"Morale is a word you never hear when it is good, and when you do hear it it is usually lousy".
The watchword of this industry seems increasingly to be "The beatings/shaftings will continue until morale improves".
Its not much fun any more.
"Morale is a word you never hear when it is good, and when you do hear it it is usually lousy".
The watchword of this industry seems increasingly to be "The beatings/shaftings will continue until morale improves".
Its not much fun any more.
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mackaskill
When I was a boy, the return air fare to New York was about Ģ200. 10 years later, everything in the world has gone up in price except the NY air fare...about Ģ179. Why is this? Along with negative inflation on air fares is a decrease in pilot living standards. When Diana died being chased by the press, I was amazed to read of the publics contempt for the paparazzi, yet it was the same public who devoured every report on Diana that fuelled the demand for pictures of her.If we ever have a crash caused by overworked, fatigued pilots, possibly in a low cost airline, or even a major as they try to compete,the public will be the first to ask why were the crew tired?The people that want to travel return to Barcelona for Ģ30! Lo cost has offered career prospects to some pilots that are unheard of in the majors(flag carriers).These are ambitious , highly motivated people who , three years after qualifying can be earning Ģ80000. The holy grail of a jet command has led to a certain amount of" pliability" of rest requirements,etc.
I was recently at a dinner party and the conversation came around to lo cost aviation, which I work in. An enthusiastic couple mentioned that they thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. When I mentioned the hours I worked, how tired I was reporting for work, let alone leaving it, the constant roster changes that did not allow me to plan my rest, the effect it was having on my home life, my inability to accept an invitation to dinner, and that with all this , I might have to deal with engine failures, weather etc, I realised I was probably one of the best adverts a traditional airline had ever used.
I was recently at a dinner party and the conversation came around to lo cost aviation, which I work in. An enthusiastic couple mentioned that they thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. When I mentioned the hours I worked, how tired I was reporting for work, let alone leaving it, the constant roster changes that did not allow me to plan my rest, the effect it was having on my home life, my inability to accept an invitation to dinner, and that with all this , I might have to deal with engine failures, weather etc, I realised I was probably one of the best adverts a traditional airline had ever used.
Macaskill 1: You might not be interested in US airline operations. If not, then disregard these remarks.
I can't remember the British version of our NTSB (Nat'l Tran. Safety Board), which investigates major transportation accidents. The first aircraft accident, whereby the NTSB pointed to crew fatigue as the primary factor, concerns a cargo DC-8 crash at G'mo Bay NAS, Cuba, several or more years ago. Crew fatigue is very common, but it must have been a bit severe, based on the crew's last sleep period, which was before a long night. The Naval Air Station (where the Taliban prisoners are housed) is known as a very demanding place to approach, due to the requirement to make a last minute turn onto final approach, because of the surrounding Cuban territory.
It was strange that the NTSB finally admitted in a public record, what we pilots (and FAs) have always known is commonplace in our industry-in passenger and cargo ops. The cargo aircraft accidents are rarely noticed by the public, and we all know what types of topics create "good copy".
Our FAA 'guardian angels', for the first time in history, only began to require planned rest periods (lasting for a solid 8 hours!) for pilots who with have several days of consecutive 24-hour reserve/standby duty, because of the MD-83 tragedy in Little Rock. Hence its infamous nickname, "the Tombstone Agency": assuming that there is something big enough to be buried.
Have the British (or Irish, French, Dutch, German, Swiss...) "NTSB" ever ruled that fatigue was a major contributor to an airline accident over there? There must be plenty of hazardous airports over there, even in good weather, and not just in the Alps etc
I can't remember the British version of our NTSB (Nat'l Tran. Safety Board), which investigates major transportation accidents. The first aircraft accident, whereby the NTSB pointed to crew fatigue as the primary factor, concerns a cargo DC-8 crash at G'mo Bay NAS, Cuba, several or more years ago. Crew fatigue is very common, but it must have been a bit severe, based on the crew's last sleep period, which was before a long night. The Naval Air Station (where the Taliban prisoners are housed) is known as a very demanding place to approach, due to the requirement to make a last minute turn onto final approach, because of the surrounding Cuban territory.
It was strange that the NTSB finally admitted in a public record, what we pilots (and FAs) have always known is commonplace in our industry-in passenger and cargo ops. The cargo aircraft accidents are rarely noticed by the public, and we all know what types of topics create "good copy".
Our FAA 'guardian angels', for the first time in history, only began to require planned rest periods (lasting for a solid 8 hours!) for pilots who with have several days of consecutive 24-hour reserve/standby duty, because of the MD-83 tragedy in Little Rock. Hence its infamous nickname, "the Tombstone Agency": assuming that there is something big enough to be buried.
Have the British (or Irish, French, Dutch, German, Swiss...) "NTSB" ever ruled that fatigue was a major contributor to an airline accident over there? There must be plenty of hazardous airports over there, even in good weather, and not just in the Alps etc
Last edited by Ignition Override; 2nd Feb 2003 at 04:23.
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>>Have the British (or Irish, French, Dutch, German, Swiss...) "NTSB" ever ruled that fatigue was a major contributor to an airline accident over there? There must be plenty of hazardous airports over there, even in good weather, and not just in the Alps etc<<
Yes they have. I copy a relevant AAIB report below. This was to a foriegn registered aircraft not operating under CAP 371 - the British flight time limitations scheme. The low cost carriers are, in my opinion, pushing pilots into new territory as regards the intensity of working patterns. Coupled with commercial pressures, and levels of experience, my view is that a fatigue related accidents is on the cards. I just hope that such an accident can reveal the extent of the problem without injury or loss of life. then perhaps we can return to calmer, safer days.
Other AAIB reports are at:
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/index.htm
Aircraft Incident Report 1/96
Report on the accident to Boeing 737-2D6C, 7T-VEE at Willenhall, Coventry, Warwickshire on 21 December 1994
Synopsis
The accident occurred when the aircraft, which had been chartered for the export of live animals to the Continent, was making a Surveillance Radar Approach (SRA) to Runway 23 at Coventry Airport in conditions of patchy lifting fog. The aircraft descended below the Minimum Descent Height (MDH) for the approach procedure, and collided with electricity cables and a transmission tower (pylon) which was situated on the extended centreline of the runway, some 1.1 miles from its threshold. The collision caused major damage to the inboard high lift devices on the left wing and the left engine. The consequent loss of lift on the left wing, and the thrust asymmetry, caused the aircraft to roll uncontrollably to the left. When passing through a wings vertical attitude, the left wingtip impacted the gable end of a house, causing major structural damage to the property. The aircraft continued rolling to an inverted attitude and impacted the ground in an area of woodland close to the edge of the housing conurbation. An intense fire ensued, during which a large part of the forward fuselage aft to the wheel well, including the wing centre section and the inboard portions of the wings were consumed. The five occupants suffered fatal multiple injuries on impact. There were no injuries to other persons.
The report identifies the following causal factors:
i) The flight crew allowed the aircraft to descend significantly below the normal approach glidepath during a Surveillance Radar Approach to Runway 23 at Coventry Airport, in conditions of patchy lifting fog. The descent was continued below the promulgated Minimum Descent Height without the appropriate visual reference to the approach lighting or the runway threshold.
ii) The standard company operating procedure of cross-checking altimeter height indications during the approach was not observed and the appropriate Minimum Descent Height was not called by the non handling pilot.
iii) The performance of the flight crew was impaired by the effects of tiredness, having completed over 10 hours of flight duty through the night during five flight sectors which included a total of six approaches to land.
Nine safety recommendations have been made.
Yes they have. I copy a relevant AAIB report below. This was to a foriegn registered aircraft not operating under CAP 371 - the British flight time limitations scheme. The low cost carriers are, in my opinion, pushing pilots into new territory as regards the intensity of working patterns. Coupled with commercial pressures, and levels of experience, my view is that a fatigue related accidents is on the cards. I just hope that such an accident can reveal the extent of the problem without injury or loss of life. then perhaps we can return to calmer, safer days.
Other AAIB reports are at:
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/index.htm
Aircraft Incident Report 1/96
Report on the accident to Boeing 737-2D6C, 7T-VEE at Willenhall, Coventry, Warwickshire on 21 December 1994
Synopsis
The accident occurred when the aircraft, which had been chartered for the export of live animals to the Continent, was making a Surveillance Radar Approach (SRA) to Runway 23 at Coventry Airport in conditions of patchy lifting fog. The aircraft descended below the Minimum Descent Height (MDH) for the approach procedure, and collided with electricity cables and a transmission tower (pylon) which was situated on the extended centreline of the runway, some 1.1 miles from its threshold. The collision caused major damage to the inboard high lift devices on the left wing and the left engine. The consequent loss of lift on the left wing, and the thrust asymmetry, caused the aircraft to roll uncontrollably to the left. When passing through a wings vertical attitude, the left wingtip impacted the gable end of a house, causing major structural damage to the property. The aircraft continued rolling to an inverted attitude and impacted the ground in an area of woodland close to the edge of the housing conurbation. An intense fire ensued, during which a large part of the forward fuselage aft to the wheel well, including the wing centre section and the inboard portions of the wings were consumed. The five occupants suffered fatal multiple injuries on impact. There were no injuries to other persons.
The report identifies the following causal factors:
i) The flight crew allowed the aircraft to descend significantly below the normal approach glidepath during a Surveillance Radar Approach to Runway 23 at Coventry Airport, in conditions of patchy lifting fog. The descent was continued below the promulgated Minimum Descent Height without the appropriate visual reference to the approach lighting or the runway threshold.
ii) The standard company operating procedure of cross-checking altimeter height indications during the approach was not observed and the appropriate Minimum Descent Height was not called by the non handling pilot.
iii) The performance of the flight crew was impaired by the effects of tiredness, having completed over 10 hours of flight duty through the night during five flight sectors which included a total of six approaches to land.
Nine safety recommendations have been made.
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Caractacus
The low cost carriers are, in my opinion, pushing pilots into new territory as regards the intensity of working patterns
Absolutely, the effects are of course cumulative. In our case it has been the disruption and patterns rather than hours flown which has over a relatively few years led me to consider options outside aviation.
The truth is I still love flying and don't want to do anything else, but I can seriously see myself eventually losing my medical if I don't get a more reasonable flying job.
I welcome this publicity, it will add pressure after the next accident!
The low cost carriers are, in my opinion, pushing pilots into new territory as regards the intensity of working patterns
Absolutely, the effects are of course cumulative. In our case it has been the disruption and patterns rather than hours flown which has over a relatively few years led me to consider options outside aviation.
The truth is I still love flying and don't want to do anything else, but I can seriously see myself eventually losing my medical if I don't get a more reasonable flying job.
I welcome this publicity, it will add pressure after the next accident!