CitiExpress Lose Pilots!!
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Slightly off the thread
"Until the higher level management of airlines in the UK get staffed by ex-turbo guys it will no doubt continue"
Maybe a few ex-instructor, self improver, self propelling guys with no grants or sponsors - management staff on the recruitment / crewing boards will stand up for us & appreciate our dedication & loyalty
Hey ho
13 hrs to go to 2200 & still banned by the dreaded 5 Q's
"Until the higher level management of airlines in the UK get staffed by ex-turbo guys it will no doubt continue"
Maybe a few ex-instructor, self improver, self propelling guys with no grants or sponsors - management staff on the recruitment / crewing boards will stand up for us & appreciate our dedication & loyalty
Hey ho
13 hrs to go to 2200 & still banned by the dreaded 5 Q's
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I believe it was the BA BALPA reps that stated that TP pilots were not up to scratch for BA mainline.
Perhaps someone closer to the action can confirm that.
Of course it's utter tosh.
I know one of my former colleagues went from BRAL ATP to BA 747 a few years ago.
Hmmmmmmmmmm! ATP!
Perhaps someone closer to the action can confirm that.
Of course it's utter tosh.
I know one of my former colleagues went from BRAL ATP to BA 747 a few years ago.
Hmmmmmmmmmm! ATP!
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To get this back on track.
This topic is called 'Citiexpress lose pilots!'
Seems to me that this is all about 'market forces'. Due to a review of operations (in the wake of that well known event in autumn 2001!) both BACX and mainline BA seem to have decided they have a surplus of pilots.(and aircraft, and routes!)
As a result of the 'once in a lifetime' re-organisations, BA mainline management attempted to give all regional flying; lock stock and barrel, to BACX. A total in excess of 100 mainline pilot's jobs!!
It is an oft repeated fallacy that this operation was entirely unprofitable!
In spite of the actions of BA balpa, more than half of these jobs will still be given to BACX!(Eventually, ALL WILL!) In other words, a big expansion for BACX, who presumably, were not hoarding a box of unused pilots for this purpose!
For whatever reason, agreement could not be reached on incorporating BACX pilots onto the master seniority list. This lack of agreement had nothing whatsoever to do with turbo prop pilots 'not being good enough' for big bad BA's shiny jets!
It seems blatantly obvious that the mainline BA pilot community have lost a very large number of jobs, to the instant benefit of BACX!! If the rate of pilot retirement in BA, had been running at any less than 250 per year, no doubt we would have had to 'LOSE' pilots too!
Why do I think sympathy would have been a preciously rare commodity!
This topic is called 'Citiexpress lose pilots!'
Seems to me that this is all about 'market forces'. Due to a review of operations (in the wake of that well known event in autumn 2001!) both BACX and mainline BA seem to have decided they have a surplus of pilots.(and aircraft, and routes!)
As a result of the 'once in a lifetime' re-organisations, BA mainline management attempted to give all regional flying; lock stock and barrel, to BACX. A total in excess of 100 mainline pilot's jobs!!
It is an oft repeated fallacy that this operation was entirely unprofitable!
In spite of the actions of BA balpa, more than half of these jobs will still be given to BACX!(Eventually, ALL WILL!) In other words, a big expansion for BACX, who presumably, were not hoarding a box of unused pilots for this purpose!
For whatever reason, agreement could not be reached on incorporating BACX pilots onto the master seniority list. This lack of agreement had nothing whatsoever to do with turbo prop pilots 'not being good enough' for big bad BA's shiny jets!
It seems blatantly obvious that the mainline BA pilot community have lost a very large number of jobs, to the instant benefit of BACX!! If the rate of pilot retirement in BA, had been running at any less than 250 per year, no doubt we would have had to 'LOSE' pilots too!
Why do I think sympathy would have been a preciously rare commodity!
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Tandemrotor what are you talking about ??
40 demotions and almost certain loss of jobs in the next few months is expansion eh ??
Lets just do the maths shall we , +16 RJs -12 J41s -15 Atps -12 D8s.
A loss of 23 BACX aircraft so far. Thats real expansion for BACX!!!
40 demotions and almost certain loss of jobs in the next few months is expansion eh ??
Lets just do the maths shall we , +16 RJs -12 J41s -15 Atps -12 D8s.
A loss of 23 BACX aircraft so far. Thats real expansion for BACX!!!
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hoey5o
(geordie?)
"Let's just do the maths shall we, -12 J41s, -15 ATPs, -12 D8s."
Did you mean,
"A loss of '39' BACX aircraft so far. That's real expansion for BACX!!!"
So, if that means the 16 RJs mainline BA are GIVING BACX is a bonus-
WHY ALL THE BA BASHING??
Sounds like BACX's BA association is proving extremely fruitful.
Don't you agree, hoey5o????
(geordie?)
"Let's just do the maths shall we, -12 J41s, -15 ATPs, -12 D8s."
Did you mean,
"A loss of '39' BACX aircraft so far. That's real expansion for BACX!!!"
So, if that means the 16 RJs mainline BA are GIVING BACX is a bonus-
WHY ALL THE BA BASHING??
Sounds like BACX's BA association is proving extremely fruitful.
Don't you agree, hoey5o????
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So they're dumping the ATPs and D8s too are they?
When are these types leaving the fleet and does this mean further route cuts or are they routes going to be operated using 145s and ARJs?
When are these types leaving the fleet and does this mean further route cuts or are they routes going to be operated using 145s and ARJs?
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Tandemrotor
You have no idea whats going on and i suggest you shut your big mouth
A year ago with the announcement of fsas1 we saw the closure and reduction in some of our bases(BACX).One of the closures was ABZ. Flight/Cabin crew based there were given the option to relocate or lose their jobs.
At the same time in BHX and MAN , the BAR cabin crew were filling in positions in BACX when our own people were shown the door out.
This is now repeated with flight crew. We have Captains being demoted , others told there is nothing for them to fly unless willing to move to Eastern.
Now i ask you ....why are your BA mainline Captains getting jobs with us when our own people are about to lose their jobs?
If managment want to open the BACX door to BA mainline pilots then they should do it the other way too.
Our flight/cabin crew relocated here and there and everywhere showing loyalty to the company but with no reward.
And as far as our tp drivers not being good enough then how comes the city flyer boys were?
Oh and to finish of who says your bad shiny jet mainline pilots are good enough for our a/c?
You have no idea whats going on and i suggest you shut your big mouth
A year ago with the announcement of fsas1 we saw the closure and reduction in some of our bases(BACX).One of the closures was ABZ. Flight/Cabin crew based there were given the option to relocate or lose their jobs.
At the same time in BHX and MAN , the BAR cabin crew were filling in positions in BACX when our own people were shown the door out.
This is now repeated with flight crew. We have Captains being demoted , others told there is nothing for them to fly unless willing to move to Eastern.
Now i ask you ....why are your BA mainline Captains getting jobs with us when our own people are about to lose their jobs?
If managment want to open the BACX door to BA mainline pilots then they should do it the other way too.
Our flight/cabin crew relocated here and there and everywhere showing loyalty to the company but with no reward.
And as far as our tp drivers not being good enough then how comes the city flyer boys were?
Oh and to finish of who says your bad shiny jet mainline pilots are good enough for our a/c?
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Please dont let this become another BA BACX slanging match, I think both sides are well aware of all the problems.
However all that aside I personally never had a problem with my terms and conditions whilst I worked for BRAL however now I work for BACX I am now feeling a little cheesed off having seen substantial pay rises in mainline when the company is still in debt to the tune of 5.5 billion and a second Gulf war is looming, whilst we in BACX have been given very little.
A lot of us were expecting big and better things when BA bought BRAL but unfortunately most of us have been very disappointed with the outcome, with base closures the removal of aircraft and the slow reaction to the threat of the Lo cost operators.
If BALPA and BA mainline pilots truly want to see us on their seniority lists with similar terms and conditions it would be nice to see some more support to this end, our own glorious leaders do not seem to think along those lines and have stated as much.
However all that aside I personally never had a problem with my terms and conditions whilst I worked for BRAL however now I work for BACX I am now feeling a little cheesed off having seen substantial pay rises in mainline when the company is still in debt to the tune of 5.5 billion and a second Gulf war is looming, whilst we in BACX have been given very little.
A lot of us were expecting big and better things when BA bought BRAL but unfortunately most of us have been very disappointed with the outcome, with base closures the removal of aircraft and the slow reaction to the threat of the Lo cost operators.
If BALPA and BA mainline pilots truly want to see us on their seniority lists with similar terms and conditions it would be nice to see some more support to this end, our own glorious leaders do not seem to think along those lines and have stated as much.
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From many previous posts:
"Until the higher level management of airlines in the UK get staffed by ex-turbo guys it will no doubt continue, as like all the best stereotypes, it has no basis in fact.
BTW, the BA attitude to TP drivers is oh so typical of that excuse for an 'airline'."
I am suprised at many of the comments, especially about BA and its alledged dislike of Turboprop pilots
Some facts
1. The current Director of Flight Operations at BA spent a large proportion of his career on Turboprops, and indeed was the Chief Pilot Highland division until 1992 ( Bae748/ATP)
2. Many current Training Captains/Managers have spent time on the Viscount/748/ATP
Whilst the techniques of operating a TP versus a jet are different, with a willingness to learn and a willing instructor, these differences can be forgotten by the end of the first sim detail
and yes I have flown both, and yes I have instructed Jet pilots onto turbprops and visa versa over the last few years.
Keep smiling
DC
"Until the higher level management of airlines in the UK get staffed by ex-turbo guys it will no doubt continue, as like all the best stereotypes, it has no basis in fact.
BTW, the BA attitude to TP drivers is oh so typical of that excuse for an 'airline'."
I am suprised at many of the comments, especially about BA and its alledged dislike of Turboprop pilots
Some facts
1. The current Director of Flight Operations at BA spent a large proportion of his career on Turboprops, and indeed was the Chief Pilot Highland division until 1992 ( Bae748/ATP)
2. Many current Training Captains/Managers have spent time on the Viscount/748/ATP
Whilst the techniques of operating a TP versus a jet are different, with a willingness to learn and a willing instructor, these differences can be forgotten by the end of the first sim detail
and yes I have flown both, and yes I have instructed Jet pilots onto turbprops and visa versa over the last few years.
Keep smiling
DC
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Amazon man,
Please tell me that your hope of things all bright and beautiful when BA bought BRAL, was said "Tongue in Cheek"?
Surely even you must have seen a disaster looming. What with the management of Waterworld, and then BRAL management allowed to continue, it was only ever going to go one way, and that was down........
That was why I made a consious decision to part company with BACX, when I had a choice of leaving my Brymon base, and move to that god forsaken rock! (Makes Alcatraz look a more attractive offer)
On the numerous occasions I met senior BRAL management, whom would eventually be at the helm of BACX, I knew that Waterworld had made an even bigger mistake leaving them in control, as it had in buying them!
Oh well, life has a funny way of turning out, so I'm off down the beach now!
AOG007
Please tell me that your hope of things all bright and beautiful when BA bought BRAL, was said "Tongue in Cheek"?
Surely even you must have seen a disaster looming. What with the management of Waterworld, and then BRAL management allowed to continue, it was only ever going to go one way, and that was down........
That was why I made a consious decision to part company with BACX, when I had a choice of leaving my Brymon base, and move to that god forsaken rock! (Makes Alcatraz look a more attractive offer)
On the numerous occasions I met senior BRAL management, whom would eventually be at the helm of BACX, I knew that Waterworld had made an even bigger mistake leaving them in control, as it had in buying them!
Oh well, life has a funny way of turning out, so I'm off down the beach now!
AOG007
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Well said Direct Chase!
Have heard the man mentioned in your first point with my own ears saying that he thinks it is good the BA cadets got the chance to fly TP's as the experience was very valuable.
When are people going to realise that the people in BA who said that TP guys are not good enough are BA's BALPA CC!!!!
I have heard that the stopper on TP pilots going into mainline is some of the guys at the top of BACX and the BA CC. In fact I heard that BA said it was OK and that BACX management (and of course the BA CC with scope) said it wasn't!!!
I agree that many (almost all) parts of BACX have been run appallingly in the past year and I despair at some of the descisions. The only way we are going to get all this sorted is to get all of the pilots on one seniority list. One BALPA guy said to me that there is no real problem with that - just creat a 'regional' pay scale to go alongside shorthaul, mediumhaul and longhaul. I asked why BALPA weren't pushing this and I got the weakest of excuses. Perhaps we should all push BALPA to achieve one list? I reckon it would be good for BA, as well as good for the workforce.
Have heard the man mentioned in your first point with my own ears saying that he thinks it is good the BA cadets got the chance to fly TP's as the experience was very valuable.
When are people going to realise that the people in BA who said that TP guys are not good enough are BA's BALPA CC!!!!
I have heard that the stopper on TP pilots going into mainline is some of the guys at the top of BACX and the BA CC. In fact I heard that BA said it was OK and that BACX management (and of course the BA CC with scope) said it wasn't!!!
I agree that many (almost all) parts of BACX have been run appallingly in the past year and I despair at some of the descisions. The only way we are going to get all this sorted is to get all of the pilots on one seniority list. One BALPA guy said to me that there is no real problem with that - just creat a 'regional' pay scale to go alongside shorthaul, mediumhaul and longhaul. I asked why BALPA weren't pushing this and I got the weakest of excuses. Perhaps we should all push BALPA to achieve one list? I reckon it would be good for BA, as well as good for the workforce.
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Lucky Angel
What a very erudite response!
If your level of understanding and intelligence is representative of that of your colleagues, the mainline pilots working alongside you at BHX and MAN, are going to have a barrel of laughs.
You just don't get it do you!
What a very erudite response!
If your level of understanding and intelligence is representative of that of your colleagues, the mainline pilots working alongside you at BHX and MAN, are going to have a barrel of laughs.
You just don't get it do you!
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Tandemrotor
It looks like you dont get it.
I have no problems with our mainline colleagues
The only problem i have is that management and BALPA seem to be making things far to complicated when in real life things are actually very simple.
Think of what has happened in the last year. BAR merges with BACX and all the 737 and A319's leave BHX and MAN. BAR crews complain that they will have to move and we complain because at some point we will have to work with people better paid and with better terms and conditions than ours.
Then they said that many of the x-city flyer rj100's where coming to bhx and man. So who was going to fly them?
It took about 8 months for them to find a solution.
Why couldn't they just say..."Oh well BAR is not going to be operating 737's and 319's but rj100's"?
That would have prevented a lot of bad comments and rumours.
But then again nothing could be that simple for management. How would they then justify there big fat salaries?
It looks like you dont get it.
I have no problems with our mainline colleagues
The only problem i have is that management and BALPA seem to be making things far to complicated when in real life things are actually very simple.
Think of what has happened in the last year. BAR merges with BACX and all the 737 and A319's leave BHX and MAN. BAR crews complain that they will have to move and we complain because at some point we will have to work with people better paid and with better terms and conditions than ours.
Then they said that many of the x-city flyer rj100's where coming to bhx and man. So who was going to fly them?
It took about 8 months for them to find a solution.
Why couldn't they just say..."Oh well BAR is not going to be operating 737's and 319's but rj100's"?
That would have prevented a lot of bad comments and rumours.
But then again nothing could be that simple for management. How would they then justify there big fat salaries?
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Rumours, rumours, rumours! I too don't know where some of you get your information from. I suspect this works a little like chinese whispers. You gleen from what you hear what is convenient to make your points. This TP rubbish is the biggest load of tosh I've ever heard. What do you think all the ex-CFE ATR guys are doing this year. I'll tell you, most of them are going to 757/767, Airbus and other fleets as the TP winds its operation down. Doesn't do much for your argument does it?
No, I strongly suspect that that there is far more to it than you are all admitting to; such as that BACX are not on BA t&c's and as such don't have a route into mainline flying (More's the pity for them). Still, never let the truth get in the way of a good story, eh?
Back to the original topic, however. I recently flew with a very nice chap from BACX on the RJ. He was originally MAN based and fresh out of line training. He told me he'd just got his roster and that all of his trips were out of BHX. He called up and asked about this to which they answered, "Oh, you're now BHX based". No warning or notice, just that! He was also told that as a result his Hotac arrangements were to cease at the end of Jan. Apart from this, they had made him do his course during his two weeks leave. Fair enough, this happens but they had no intention of giving it back to him. To add insult to injury he had to work line training during a further week's leave and they refused to pay him for it.
Is it any wonder they are losing pilots?
No, I strongly suspect that that there is far more to it than you are all admitting to; such as that BACX are not on BA t&c's and as such don't have a route into mainline flying (More's the pity for them). Still, never let the truth get in the way of a good story, eh?
Back to the original topic, however. I recently flew with a very nice chap from BACX on the RJ. He was originally MAN based and fresh out of line training. He told me he'd just got his roster and that all of his trips were out of BHX. He called up and asked about this to which they answered, "Oh, you're now BHX based". No warning or notice, just that! He was also told that as a result his Hotac arrangements were to cease at the end of Jan. Apart from this, they had made him do his course during his two weeks leave. Fair enough, this happens but they had no intention of giving it back to him. To add insult to injury he had to work line training during a further week's leave and they refused to pay him for it.
Is it any wonder they are losing pilots?
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SS thats exactly my point about the x city flyer tp chaps. I think the problem that most of us at BACX have is the way BA have used us to protect their pilots. We had the cadets flying our tps and now BHX and MAN flight crew(mainline) staying on the RJ.
Dont get me wrong i have no problem with mainline pilots and im sure most of them are fantastic people but only to be fair they should have allowed BACX into mainline, just like mainline was allowed into BACX.
Dont get me wrong i have no problem with mainline pilots and im sure most of them are fantastic people but only to be fair they should have allowed BACX into mainline, just like mainline was allowed into BACX.
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Returned home today to find the latest BACX Balpa newsletter waiting for me and was dismayed to read that the company has formally registered with the DTI the potential need for redundancies in the future.
The previous threads regarding TP pilots, of which I am one, being unable to get into BA is something that we have gone over time and time again with no resolution. Somewhere, high in the echelons of power, somebody does not like TP pilots and nothing is going to change that unless they are forced to change their opinion or removed. And this of course is not just within our parent company, BA. Our illustrious GMFO has on numerous occasions resisted any discussion and publicly voiced his opposition to BACX piots joining Mainline seniority list in case all his pilots, but most importantly his experienced pilots, decide to bid onto shiny jets out of LHR. As has been mentioned so many times before, those of us with more than a couple of years seniority are far more interested in the quality of life that we've established where we are and not the lure of long haul or whatever. This would presumably explain why there are BAR crews flying with us on the RJ. They weren't interested in moving south either.
For those of you who are interested, the name of the current mainline Director of Flight Operations at Waterside is given in an effort to prompt us to write to him and voice our concern at the present situation and the impenetrable walls erected between the two companies. I find myself in the extremely lucky position of awaiting an RJ course, yet I have just finished my letter to this individual at BA, venting my spleen that some of my hard working colleagues (and who knows with the present farcical management; myself in a couple of years) could soon find themselves out of work. All this when BA is apparently due to start recruiting DEP's in the summer.
Partly due to start up costs, but as we all appreciate mainly due to a number of poor decisions made by our managers, BACX is haemoraging money. While we are told that it would increase the crewing costs and therefore further affect our company, surely the only way to prevent the forthcoming redundancy/recruitment crisis is to put all the BACX pilots on the Mainline seniority list and be done with it. A regional payscale for BA, perhaps exactly what BACX now pays would help to reduce these costs. In the coming weeks/months/years as we presumably start making profits again, we could address the disparity in pay though our Balpa reps, and by that I mean reps representing us all. One thing is clear, if we allow our management to make redundancies whilst there are other jobs going in another part of "the group", we will only have ourselves to blame when they roll all over us again and again in the future. And paying the redundancy for God knows how many pilots ain't going to help the balance sheet either.
I would hope that we would also have the backing of the majority of Mainline pilots in this too. We all know that there are, in BA, a small minority of utter t***s who are far more interested in protecting their own interests above those of those more unfortunate than themselves. However, you only have to read recent threads to know that we have our own fair share too! In both companies, I believe the vast majority are decent human beings and so lets fight this one together....
The previous threads regarding TP pilots, of which I am one, being unable to get into BA is something that we have gone over time and time again with no resolution. Somewhere, high in the echelons of power, somebody does not like TP pilots and nothing is going to change that unless they are forced to change their opinion or removed. And this of course is not just within our parent company, BA. Our illustrious GMFO has on numerous occasions resisted any discussion and publicly voiced his opposition to BACX piots joining Mainline seniority list in case all his pilots, but most importantly his experienced pilots, decide to bid onto shiny jets out of LHR. As has been mentioned so many times before, those of us with more than a couple of years seniority are far more interested in the quality of life that we've established where we are and not the lure of long haul or whatever. This would presumably explain why there are BAR crews flying with us on the RJ. They weren't interested in moving south either.
For those of you who are interested, the name of the current mainline Director of Flight Operations at Waterside is given in an effort to prompt us to write to him and voice our concern at the present situation and the impenetrable walls erected between the two companies. I find myself in the extremely lucky position of awaiting an RJ course, yet I have just finished my letter to this individual at BA, venting my spleen that some of my hard working colleagues (and who knows with the present farcical management; myself in a couple of years) could soon find themselves out of work. All this when BA is apparently due to start recruiting DEP's in the summer.
Partly due to start up costs, but as we all appreciate mainly due to a number of poor decisions made by our managers, BACX is haemoraging money. While we are told that it would increase the crewing costs and therefore further affect our company, surely the only way to prevent the forthcoming redundancy/recruitment crisis is to put all the BACX pilots on the Mainline seniority list and be done with it. A regional payscale for BA, perhaps exactly what BACX now pays would help to reduce these costs. In the coming weeks/months/years as we presumably start making profits again, we could address the disparity in pay though our Balpa reps, and by that I mean reps representing us all. One thing is clear, if we allow our management to make redundancies whilst there are other jobs going in another part of "the group", we will only have ourselves to blame when they roll all over us again and again in the future. And paying the redundancy for God knows how many pilots ain't going to help the balance sheet either.
I would hope that we would also have the backing of the majority of Mainline pilots in this too. We all know that there are, in BA, a small minority of utter t***s who are far more interested in protecting their own interests above those of those more unfortunate than themselves. However, you only have to read recent threads to know that we have our own fair share too! In both companies, I believe the vast majority are decent human beings and so lets fight this one together....
Last edited by Green Ham; 28th Feb 2003 at 20:48.
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Guys,
I really sympathise with what you are going through it can't be much fun at the moment. I have to ask a few questions though. Has anyone actually established where this T/P rubbish came from? I can't believe any sane person would construct as ludicrous an argument as that one. Many of us started on T/P's as has been previously said.
As for mainline not letting you in, your union reps attended a meeting of the BACC sometime last year which they were invited to, I understand, as a courtesy prior to the possibility of them becoming involved in the negotiations at some stage. What happened, half way through the meeting they got up and started making proposals to BA and the BACC as to what they thought should happen. All they succeeded doing was pissing off everybody and effectively scuppering any chances of them becoming involved in the scope negotiations. They heard positioning statements from both sides which will always be extreme by the nature of negotiations. They reacted and effectively threw the baby out with the bath water. I believe that is where a lot of this rubbish has come from.
In an ideal world BACX would join the BA Master Seniority List. I hope you do. We have got to get over what happened, it was a huge mistake. It will take a long time to make up the ground and create another opportunity for this to happen. Lets hope there some experienced negotiators around for you to call on when necessary. Just for the record the letter you got from your reps at the time trumpeted the fact that they had rejected an unfair and one sided scope agreement. There was no agreement, nothing was offered so there was nothing for them to reject, so what the hell were they talking about?
I really sympathise with what you are going through it can't be much fun at the moment. I have to ask a few questions though. Has anyone actually established where this T/P rubbish came from? I can't believe any sane person would construct as ludicrous an argument as that one. Many of us started on T/P's as has been previously said.
As for mainline not letting you in, your union reps attended a meeting of the BACC sometime last year which they were invited to, I understand, as a courtesy prior to the possibility of them becoming involved in the negotiations at some stage. What happened, half way through the meeting they got up and started making proposals to BA and the BACC as to what they thought should happen. All they succeeded doing was pissing off everybody and effectively scuppering any chances of them becoming involved in the scope negotiations. They heard positioning statements from both sides which will always be extreme by the nature of negotiations. They reacted and effectively threw the baby out with the bath water. I believe that is where a lot of this rubbish has come from.
In an ideal world BACX would join the BA Master Seniority List. I hope you do. We have got to get over what happened, it was a huge mistake. It will take a long time to make up the ground and create another opportunity for this to happen. Lets hope there some experienced negotiators around for you to call on when necessary. Just for the record the letter you got from your reps at the time trumpeted the fact that they had rejected an unfair and one sided scope agreement. There was no agreement, nothing was offered so there was nothing for them to reject, so what the hell were they talking about?