LH pilots intoxicated
Iconoclast
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The home of Dudley Dooright-Where the lead dog is the only one that gets a change of scenery.
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Let's have another round and the flight engineer is buying.
To: Pegasus 77
First of all I was not trying to excuse the flight crew from violating a standing order issued by the certification authorities and their own airline. The point I was trying to make or at least intended to make is this: When a person grows up drinking in an uncontrolled manner he/she may have the feeling that they can handle it on their job. This goes for pilots or any other occupation. Alcoholics are in most cases high functioning individuals when under the influence and many of their associates are totally unaware that the individual is stoned. It is when they are not stoned that their secret is out. That is why I used the illustration about the Coast Guard pilots. I have worked in England, France, Italy and Holland and in most cases in these countries they either consumed large amounts of beer or wine because hard spirits are too expensive. I used the MBB example because I worked there. I also worked at another German company and they had beer machines but most of the people either ate in the cafeteria which did not serve beer or wine or, they went home for lunch so the problem was not so bad.
My statement to you is stop being so defensive.
Please stay away from a discussion if you've nothing but rubbish to say.
My statement to you is stop being so defensive.
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Pegasus 77 - Acting more like the posterior end of a winged horse, methinks.
Your 'nothing but rubbish' comment is a bit over the top.
Although not quite as ancient as LU, I recall encounters - in times way past- with a few pilots who unapologetically drank their courage, and I saw many occasions where moderate consumption of beer and perhaps some schnapps was normal, open, and uncontroversial at training fields (and larger airports) in Europe. A flirty young bar maid was the chief attraction for arrivals at one sweet little country field I remember fondly from way back when. The aerodrome was out in the middle of nowhere, but it did a great business, nonetheless.
P.S. I do not - in any way, shape, or form- condone the combination of drinking and flying (or driving). Times have changed.
Your 'nothing but rubbish' comment is a bit over the top.
Although not quite as ancient as LU, I recall encounters - in times way past- with a few pilots who unapologetically drank their courage, and I saw many occasions where moderate consumption of beer and perhaps some schnapps was normal, open, and uncontroversial at training fields (and larger airports) in Europe. A flirty young bar maid was the chief attraction for arrivals at one sweet little country field I remember fondly from way back when. The aerodrome was out in the middle of nowhere, but it did a great business, nonetheless.
P.S. I do not - in any way, shape, or form- condone the combination of drinking and flying (or driving). Times have changed.
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Captain104
Well... Your Profile is showing Interests: aviation safety, winetastings ....
Tut mir leid, zu komisch, konnte nicht widerstehen. Schoenen Ruhestand!
How could you survive those awfull habits where little kids(potential pilots) are trained to drink lakes of beer plus Kirschwasser daily because it is considered as regular food?
Tut mir leid, zu komisch, konnte nicht widerstehen. Schoenen Ruhestand!
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I appear to have touched a few raw nerves with my simple suggestion that all pilots be teetotal.
fireflybob suggests that the drinking culture is endemic in some companies; I would suggest that this probably applies to certain countries, based upon my observations.
M.Mouse --
Yes. One individual is all it takes to cause a drink-induced accident.
BarryMonday --
As a pilot of a few decades, I can confirm that my colleagues are, broadly speaking, no different to any typical slice of the population, including their ability to self control.
Excellent suggestion; thank you ! If a surgeon was about to carry out, say, a triple heart bypass on you, what would you prefer that his and the rest of his team's blood alchohol content be ?
Lu Zuckerman -- your description of a day at MBB brings back memories of my visits there. Afternoon meetings certainly suffered ! Your other comments are an excellent illustration of the problem.
fireflybob suggests that the drinking culture is endemic in some companies; I would suggest that this probably applies to certain countries, based upon my observations.
M.Mouse --
Soulution to what? A few individuals that have no ability to control their drinking?
BarryMonday --
TeeTotal for pilots is complete nonsense, if pilots, of all people, cannot show greater self control than average then there is no hope, IMHO.
So if TeeTotal were the case then presumably we can expect it to apply right across the spectrum of people who have responsibility for other people's lives and well being?
Pilots, Cabin Crew, Doctors, Nurses, Lawyers, Train Drivers, Bus Drivers etc. etc. The list is endless.
Pilots, Cabin Crew, Doctors, Nurses, Lawyers, Train Drivers, Bus Drivers etc. etc. The list is endless.
Lu Zuckerman -- your description of a day at MBB brings back memories of my visits there. Afternoon meetings certainly suffered ! Your other comments are an excellent illustration of the problem.
an excellent illustration of the problem
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Helsinki (Finland) has a strict 'no drink within 12 hours of flying' ......
It doesn't matter if you have no alcohol in your blood when you report, if someone can prove you did consume alcohol within 12 hours you are guilty.
That person could be one your passengers, an airport employee etc who saw you in a bar drinking within 12 hours ....
Its just not worth your licence ....... stick to the rules, no one will ever give you any mercy with ref. flying and drinking, and you owe it to your passengers ....
Would you go for an operation if you knew the surgeon had been drinking within 12 hours ???
It doesn't matter if you have no alcohol in your blood when you report, if someone can prove you did consume alcohol within 12 hours you are guilty.
That person could be one your passengers, an airport employee etc who saw you in a bar drinking within 12 hours ....
Its just not worth your licence ....... stick to the rules, no one will ever give you any mercy with ref. flying and drinking, and you owe it to your passengers ....
Would you go for an operation if you knew the surgeon had been drinking within 12 hours ???
Controversial, moi?
Yes.
We are developing the US habit of trying to make life entirely risk free. Life is not risk free and never will be. I am sick to death of being nannied and legislated to the point where I am not sure if I am allowed to break wind in public anymore.
I have met one or two sober pilots that might have been safer had they had a drink or two!
Finally if anyone believes that changing the rules further will decrease the present minimal number of incidences is living in cloud cuckoo land.
Banning handguns in the UK after the tragedy of Dunblane and Hungerford had a dramatic affect didn't it?. All innocent handgun owners lost their guns and er......the incidence of illegal handgun usage and ownership continued unabated. UK gun crime doubled since 1997.
Same with drink drivers. The limit can be zero but those that have a problem will not stay within the limit whatever it is.
I vote to get away from the nanny culture and its associated headlong rush towards wanting compensation for every misfortune that occurs in one's life.
We are developing the US habit of trying to make life entirely risk free. Life is not risk free and never will be. I am sick to death of being nannied and legislated to the point where I am not sure if I am allowed to break wind in public anymore.
I have met one or two sober pilots that might have been safer had they had a drink or two!
Finally if anyone believes that changing the rules further will decrease the present minimal number of incidences is living in cloud cuckoo land.
Banning handguns in the UK after the tragedy of Dunblane and Hungerford had a dramatic affect didn't it?. All innocent handgun owners lost their guns and er......the incidence of illegal handgun usage and ownership continued unabated. UK gun crime doubled since 1997.
Same with drink drivers. The limit can be zero but those that have a problem will not stay within the limit whatever it is.
I vote to get away from the nanny culture and its associated headlong rush towards wanting compensation for every misfortune that occurs in one's life.
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Posts: n/a
Ha ha ha
All pilots should be teetotalers. I just love it!!! I'm surprised ya didn't get some warning points for that.
Kaptin M, Slasher and probably 99% of the pilots who post here not to mention the ones that don't might as well hand in their epaulettes if that was to be the case.
I mean everyone knows I don't touch a drop & even I wouldn't ave come out with that (I value my life)
Come to think of it all you boozy pilots should move over & let sober little me at the controls.
Emerald
Gone off for a good laugh
All pilots should be teetotalers. I just love it!!! I'm surprised ya didn't get some warning points for that.
Kaptin M, Slasher and probably 99% of the pilots who post here not to mention the ones that don't might as well hand in their epaulettes if that was to be the case.I mean everyone knows I don't touch a drop & even I wouldn't ave come out with that (I value my life)
Come to think of it all you boozy pilots should move over & let sober little me at the controls. Emerald
Gone off for a good laugh
I would never advocate that all pilots become teetotal.
However, it is an option which is worthy of consideration from an individual point of view.
I would respect the right of an individual crew member to imbibe legal "mind altering" substances (within the rules) so long as that person respects my right to abstain.
It is interesting to see how this debate has become polarised.
However, it is an option which is worthy of consideration from an individual point of view.
I would respect the right of an individual crew member to imbibe legal "mind altering" substances (within the rules) so long as that person respects my right to abstain.
It is interesting to see how this debate has become polarised.
Join Date: May 2001
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As a devotee of the Mystic Church of Oenology I am outraged at this insult! Give up Wine? I'll have you know that it is through blessed wine that I commune with my maker...how dare you demand our church breaks its fundamental tennet. Are you a racist? A bigot? A sectarian anti-Oenologist?
I'm seeing our lawyer in the morning!
I'm seeing our lawyer in the morning!
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The more I read these threads, the more I wonder about some of my younger brethren. Often, battle lines are drawn up, cudgels are drawn and the battle starts with all it's verbal abuse, when in reality we all subscribe to the same belief.
Take this booze question. We all agree that anyone flouting the bottle to throttle rules, whether they be 8 hours, 12 hours or 24 hours (depends on the quantity consumed) should be shown the door. Everybody knows the penalty so shouldn't be surprised when the large tome gets thrown at them.
When folks talk about the days of yore and the 'goings on' remember it was a different ball game. Way back, before the breathalizer, we would climb into our MGs or Morris 8s smashed as rats after a thrash in the local pub, and wend our drunken way home. If lucky we got there unscathed, and more to the point hadn't hit anybody else.
As a general rule society smiled indulgently and shook their heads at the foolishness of youth. Even the custodians of the law, with a quick "Allo, Allo, Allo - 'Ad a bit too much to drink 'ave we sir" might send you on your way.
As someone said, Air France and certainly the French Air Force used to partake of a small bottle of the red stuff when flying, and it was always served with lunch in the mess.
Times have changed, and the world(at least in some areas has gained a bit more sense). Society has moved on. When the drink driving rules first came in, there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth from imbibers as a whole who thought the authorities were taking a bloody liberty!! Now, even if some haven't stopped drinking and driving completely - everyone is aware of the consequences.
Think back to flying in the 50s. Think of the weather we operated in. No limits for landing (in the RAF anyway). You either got in or you chickened out and went some where else. Diversion fuel? We've got enough for a couple more circuits. On other threads Flatus and others have joined me in reminiscing over the good old days of flying. In many respects, they weren't. We had a hell of a lot of fun but we sure lost a lot of people who crashed in ignorance of a lot of the dangers. They didn't necessarily take chances - they just didn't know any better!
So when we see guys getting the boot for infringing, lets not wring our hands in righteous indignation - just be grateful for the huge advancement in flight safety awareness.
Here endeth the lesson - you may now all wake up.
Take this booze question. We all agree that anyone flouting the bottle to throttle rules, whether they be 8 hours, 12 hours or 24 hours (depends on the quantity consumed) should be shown the door. Everybody knows the penalty so shouldn't be surprised when the large tome gets thrown at them.
When folks talk about the days of yore and the 'goings on' remember it was a different ball game. Way back, before the breathalizer, we would climb into our MGs or Morris 8s smashed as rats after a thrash in the local pub, and wend our drunken way home. If lucky we got there unscathed, and more to the point hadn't hit anybody else.
As a general rule society smiled indulgently and shook their heads at the foolishness of youth. Even the custodians of the law, with a quick "Allo, Allo, Allo - 'Ad a bit too much to drink 'ave we sir" might send you on your way.
As someone said, Air France and certainly the French Air Force used to partake of a small bottle of the red stuff when flying, and it was always served with lunch in the mess.
Times have changed, and the world(at least in some areas has gained a bit more sense). Society has moved on. When the drink driving rules first came in, there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth from imbibers as a whole who thought the authorities were taking a bloody liberty!! Now, even if some haven't stopped drinking and driving completely - everyone is aware of the consequences.
Think back to flying in the 50s. Think of the weather we operated in. No limits for landing (in the RAF anyway). You either got in or you chickened out and went some where else. Diversion fuel? We've got enough for a couple more circuits. On other threads Flatus and others have joined me in reminiscing over the good old days of flying. In many respects, they weren't. We had a hell of a lot of fun but we sure lost a lot of people who crashed in ignorance of a lot of the dangers. They didn't necessarily take chances - they just didn't know any better!
So when we see guys getting the boot for infringing, lets not wring our hands in righteous indignation - just be grateful for the huge advancement in flight safety awareness.
Here endeth the lesson - you may now all wake up.
Iconoclast
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The home of Dudley Dooright-Where the lead dog is the only one that gets a change of scenery.
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Was it DUI or was it IUD?
Way back, before the breathalizer, we would climb into our MGs or Morris 8s smashed as rats after a thrash in the local pub, and wend our drunken way home. If lucky we got there unscathed, and more to the point hadn't hit anybody else.
Cunning Artificer
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...and while we're at it, what about the infamous "Green Man"? I'm with Lu; Aeroplanes and alcohol don't mix, flying, building or fixing them...
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Through difficulties to the cinema
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Through difficulties to the cinema
Iconoclast
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The home of Dudley Dooright-Where the lead dog is the only one that gets a change of scenery.
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The man of steel
Ah the good old times we did have fun, men were men, we were all made out of steel or so we thought…but alas times have changed…
