737 diverted to CWL

[BELHold]

Devils Advocate.....OK fair enough, but what you describe is a slightly different scenario.

What I am trying to say is that the "Good old days", Capt strolling down the aisle Dean Martin style gave confidence to uneasy pax.

I fully understand that the society we now live in has its fair share of d...kheads that have absolutely no respect for anyone or anything.....I was at the blunt end for many years, but I still feel that discretion is sometimes overlooked.

If I where in a position where I was told by a professional seasoned colleague that the safety of my AC was jeopardised I would take the same action that was taken in this case.

[chiglet]

MOL,
"Smoking" or "Taking a 'swig' from a Can" IS ILLEGAL
You don't like it, then GO BY BOAT
IF You travel by Air, [or Coach, or Ferry or Eurostar] then you abide by "certain" rules....AKA "Common Sense" or "Conforming to the Social 'Norm'".
Most "civilised" sections of our "Society" have NOT a problem with this. BUT If you have a "problem" with this, the I suggest that you STAY AT HOME
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[ADC]

So, let's have a quick look at the police statement shall we?

But further arrests could still be made among the 140 fans bussed back to Scotland last night, south Wales police warned.

...so those who were telling Sky News today that nothing happened on board the aircraft may yet get a visit from the Old Bill.

Supt Colin Jones, speaking from Barry police station, said detectives continued to treat the incident as “extremely serious”.
He also revealed that a stewardess at the centre of alleged assault allegations was treated by paramedics for a badly bruised arm after the plane touched down.
Supt Jones said tonight: “Nothing has come to my attention to scale down this incident, indeed the opposite is true.

The Capitals are mine....doesn't sound like he is tending to take much heed of the protestations of innocence then. I wouldn't have thought a "tap on the shoulder" would result in being "treated by paramedics for a badly bruised arm"

I note with interest his view that he thinks the situation is tending towards being more serious than originally thought.

Well, here is a professional Police Officer, having taken account of the evidence reported to him , the interviews carried out of passengers and crew, and reports of evidence found on the aircraft by his officers.

Maybe MOL and his fellow apologists for drunken yobs endangering aircraft will now shut up.

Somehow I suspect not .

[cargo boy]

I believe that the complaining Celtic supporters may be being somewhat reluctant about shedding any real light on their behaviour during the flight which some reports say was starting to cause some concern on the tarmac in Spain before the flight even departed for Glasgow.

A Scottish regional newspaper has reported:

SIX BAILED AFTER FRACAS SPARKED FLIGHT MAYDAY
Charles Lavery, Jamie Macaskill And Lynn Mcpherson

SIX Celtic fans arrested by armed police at Cardiff Airport were freed on bail yesterday after being accused of provoking a mid-air alert.

The men were released without charge pending further inquiries as more details emerged of the trouble at 30,000ft that prompted their pilot to make an emergency landing in Wales.

The six were among the 148 Celtic fans returning from Spain whose plane was met by armed officers after the pilot issued a Mayday alert.

They were held in Barry Police Station on Friday night but released yesterday on condition they returned to Wales in March.

The rest of the fans on board the plane had returned to Glasgow in a convoy of three coaches arriving in the city at 6.30am yesterday, with most claiming the air crew had over-reacted.

But the sudden diversion to Cardiff came after a stewardess called the pilot in the cockpit claiming: "Some of the passengers have gone berserk. I have lost the cabin."

The full details of the trouble aboard flight AEU308 emerged yesterday as police in Wales released the six men.

After take-off, the 737 climbed to 30,000ft and turned towards Britain.

By then the passengers had settled down and were being served hot meals. Alcohol was not being served but some passengers had smuggled booze on board and started drinking.

An emergency alarm then alerted the crew that someone had been smoking in the plane forward toilet - highly dangerous and illegal.

The captain announced police would meet them in Glasgow and all passengers would have to stay on board until the smoker was found.

A number of passengers started to complain loudly and a row developed between a woman and one stewardess.

Then a stewardess was struck heavily on the arm by a passenger. Within seconds the rows of rear seats on the 737 had erupted as at least 10 passengers began yelling and swearing.

It was then the pilot decided the situation was grave enough to make a Mayday call.

Source: Sunday Mail

[MOL]

I'm amazed by the attitudes on here.
Six people have been released on bail 'WITHOUT CHARGE'.
Anybody who knows anything about law will tell you that this means that the case is by no means solid. Yet I'm still reading here that I'm an apologist for 'drunken yobs'. I think some of you guys should try to look beyond 'the company' and 'the job'.
Can you not understand that it is quite possible that the cabin crew made a total arse of all of this and left the captain in a dreadful position ? I am also amazed that the aircraft problems - outward and homeward - have got very little mention in all of this.

My own view now is that the cabin crew put the pilot in an awkward position. He was given information which he could not check out and reacted.

And if you think this couldn't happen please check the post below on the 'cabin crew' forum of this site. There are nearly 90 replies on this thread !! Sad stuff, I know, but perhaps some of these people should work elsewhere.

___________________________________________________

From the cabin crew forum on this website................

What do you find most annoying about our job???

Well.... where shall we start....

1 - When someone asks for a gin and tonic for example which you give to them and then their partner says 'i will have the same'.... Why the hell can't they ask for 2!!!!

2 - When someone calls you 'mate'.... In reply I tell them ' I am NOT your mate'!!!!

3 - When a group of pax come on and shows you their boarding cards, upside down and thumb over the seat number....

4 - When you have been away on a weeks trip and the idiots ask you what the weather is like at home....

5 - When flying over a city for example at night and they ask you 'where is that'?.... How the hell should I know.... I squeeze tea bags for a living....

6 - Hearing the unfastening of seat belts as soon as the wheels touch the runway after landing....

7 - Walking through the cabin with your hands full and someone tries to hand you their meal tray.... I am NOT an octopus!!!!

8 - Asking a question eg Tea???? when they have got their headphones on and they can't hear you.... Why oh why do they not take the bloody things off instead of looking at you gormlessly as if you are speaking swahili.... It is not rocket science....

I can go and on unfortunately I have to puit up with all of the above tonight so must foxtrot oscar now.... I look forward to hearing your favourites....

[Miller]

ADC says

Well, here is a professional Police Officer, having taken account of the evidence reported to him , the interviews carried out of passengers and crew, and reports of evidence found on the aircraft by his officers.

Maybe MOL and his fellow apologists for drunken yobs endangering aircraft will now shut up.

Well, if we were to follow your reasoning, there would be no need for a judicial system, and culprits could be locked up on the say-so of a suitably professional policeman.

I doubt that the likes of Paul Burrell would share your high regard for police professionalism, and I suspect that Celtic fans may be less than enamoured with policemen after their run-ins with the police in Spain which are going to be the subject of a club complaint and were also sufficiently serious for the BBC commentator at the game to pen an article in the Scottish press.

Still, the policeman in this instance says that “Nothing has come to my attention to scale down this incident, indeed the opposite is true.”

Now I don't know what the cabin crew have said to the police.

But what the airline has said is this.

"A number of passengers at the rear of the aircraft objected strongly and loudly, one female passenger becoming particularly agitated. At least ten other passengers became involved, and in the ensuing fracas the cabin crew member was struck on the arm."

Now that suggests to me that quite a fracas took place on this plane. I assume we can all agree on that.

And one Scottish newspaper reports that 'the sudden diversion to Cardiff came after a stewardess called the pilot in the cockpit claiming: "Some of the passengers have gone berserk. I have lost the cabin."

Again that seems pretty serious.

So can we all agree then that so far this sounds like a major incident in what is a very confined space. The airline remember says the passengers involved 'objected strongly and loudly.'

Well that seems like that then.

Except that there's only one thing that nags with me and it's contained in the airline's statement which says -

"It has become apparent from our debriefing of cabin crew that passengers in the forward and centre of the cabin may not have been aware of the second disturbance."

Well that might be so but this second disturbance was the one where, in the words of the airline -

"A number of passengers at the rear of the aircraft objected strongly and loudly, one female passenger becoming particularly agitated. At least ten other passengers became involved, and in the ensuing fracas the cabin crew member was struck on the arm."

And yet the airline can say that passengers in the middle and front parts of the aircraft may not have been aware of what was going on. I just find that part hard to understand, and I can only think that either this was rather a subdued fracas or else the rest of the passengers were stone deaf.

[ajamieson]

posted by MOL: Six people have been released on bail 'WITHOUT CHARGE'. Anybody who knows anything about law will tell you that this means that the case is by no means solid.

Nonsense; this is a completely invalid argument.

By law in England and Wales there must be a basis for engaging police bail - a basis which can be subject to the scrutiny of a magistrate at any time. Furthermore, it is obvious that further inquiries will have to be made into this incident which will take longer than the time period allowed by officers for questioning (36 hours under the legislation in this case). You can draw no conclusions either way about the validity of a prosecution case from the fact that a suspect is released on police bail.

[Danny]

MOL, I doubt very much you work in the industry. I certainly would have doubts that you are a pilot on a commercial aircraft as part of a team that includes cabin crew. Just because someone has posted those comments on the Cabin Crew forum on PPRuNe about certain aspects of their job doesn't mean you can associate that with the crew on the Astraeus flight under discussion here.

What does come across is your disdain for cabin crew. I can assure you that the training the Astraeus cabin crew receive and those of every airline I have worked for is primarily focused on safety and the standards of training are very high. Add to that the accumulated experience that they have and I know that whenever I get a report from the crew about anything going on behind the flight deck door it is reliable. If any of us on the flight deck have a query about a report from a cabin crew member then we make it and get an update on any situation and then make the appropriate decisions on what actions to take.

MOL, if you were a pilot and had that much trust and that kind of attitude to your fellow crew members then I would be very worried and would suggest a review of your CRM training. In this case it would appear that the media created the monster about the 'riot' by believing their own hype but the decisions made by the captain were based on facts that he had and not based your prejudices about a part of your crew who you obviously believe are of a lesser status than you.

As has been stated already, it is much better to deal with a situation where more than one pax is being unruly, when on the ground with the appropriate authorities available rather than at high altitude. Having seen how 'mob' mentality can sweep through a tribal group such as football supporters I am not surprised that the captain made the decision that he did. The current media reports showing some of the fans being meek and apparently 'victimised' reminds me of those fly-on-the-wall TV documentaries that follow police chasing thugs and criminals. You invariably see the the thug pleading innocence and even blubbing for his mum as soon as he is caught and not in a position to bully any more victims. How tunes change when they realise it has all gone wrong.

I am quite saddened by some of the contributors to this thread if they really are flight crew and prepared to criticise the actions of a fellow professional who was faced with a difficult decision regarding disruptive pax. I thought we were all agreed that there would be no tolerance whatsoever of disruptive behaviour by pax and that the full weight of the law should be used to achieve prosecutions and yet I fear that some of the contributors to this thread believe that there should somehow be exceptions to this rule.

[McIce]

If there was a disturbance on the ground at Spain which involved the police being called and if passengers were so unruly during the take off safety brief one would have to ask why the aircraft took off in the first place.

[Ranger One]

Just a couple of observations...

Just a couple of thoughts...

First, the debate about whether the mayday & divert was the correct response... we don't *need* to know the details: IMHO this is one of those safety calls where the old maxim, 'The Captain Is Always Right' applies, even when with hindsight some might try to argue that s/he was, on some level, 'wrong'.

Second, MOL has posted the following alleged account:

'About one hour into the flight the pilot announced that someone had been smoking in the toilets and that the police had been called and we would all be detained at Glasgow until the person owned up... ...a woman, probably in her 40/50s, there with her daughter asked one of the stewardesses if anyone had owned up to the smoking as she didn't want to be delayed at Glasgow Airport. The stewardess, pointing her finger at the woman said that an attitude like hers would lead her to get arrested
as well'

The idea of a 'collective punishment' indefinite detention of all the pax until the culprit owned up is repugnant to me and of, at best, dubious legality IMHO. If I were a pax on a flight where such an announcement were made, I would be somewhat annoyed to put it mildly.

If we take MOLs account at face value, the cabin crew threatening the female pax with arrest for asking what seems a reasonable and polite question is appalling, in any circumstances, and particularly on that flight in those circumstances - talk about pouring petrol on a fire! How would you feel if you were that pax?!

*IF* MOL's account is accurate, that is. Still a big 'if'. He may be limited in what he can say, perhaps Hamrah can shed some light on whether this part of MOLs account bears any relation to the facts?

R1

[Hamrah]

The account of events as related by MOL, supposedly from a friend of a passenger who was on the aircraft has significant inaccuracies.

Let em just re-iterate what we have said:-

A passenger was smoking on the aircraft. As per our and other airlines procedures, the Captain made an announcement that this was an offence and that police would meet the aircraft on arrival.

A heated discussion started between passengers about the smoking incident ensued, which rapidly deteriorated. During this "fracas" the cabin crew were abused, one of them physically. They reported this outbreak to the Captain who diverted. A significant quantity of alcohol bottles and cans were found secreted around the seats of the passengers involved , which they had taken on themselves.

You say, Ranger One, that there is a reported circumstances on board this aircraft which would have "annoyed" you. Annoyed you sufficiently to strike a female crew member??

I will emphasise this one last time. We are proud of the conduct of our entire crew in handling this very difficult situation. We have had detailed reports from all of them, and have had a briefing from the police on what they found.

As far as Astraeus is concerned, any further development on this incident rest fully with the South Wales Police.

H

[MOL]

Quote : (from Danny)
____________________________________________________

" but the decisions made by the captain were based on facts that he had and not based your prejudices about a part of your crew who you obviously believe are of a lesser status than you".
____________________________________________________

My point throughout has been that the captain may have acted based on false information. How do you know it was 'fact' ? In my opinion the decisions made by the captain may have been based on facts he thought he had.
The second half of the above quote does not deserve comment. Another assumption on your part.

Interesting the way 140+ passengers views, opinions and comments mean absolutely nothing to you. Then again perhaps they are of a lesser status than you.

All for one and one for all.

[Danny]

Interesting the way 140+ passengers views, opinions and comments mean absolutely nothing to you.

[list=1][*]Having watched the interviews on TV with the returning fans and their total lack of credibility when it comes to understanding what is involved in maintaining the safety of an aircraft in flight. [*]AND having watched their own admission that there were indeed at least two seperate disturbances involving smoking, verbal and physical abuse.[*]AND having watched over the years the mob mentality of football supporters who, when inebriated can act in a sort of mass hysteria with savage thuggery followed with their embarrasment and pleas of innocence when, after sobering up they realise that they are now in trouble with the law.[*]AND being a pilot who relies on the observations of my cabin crew who are more than capable of assessing the seriousness of a disruptive passenger (or in this case several)[/list=1]
You can see which opinions and comments mean more to me. But, my opinion is not the one that will determine the outcome of any prosecution that may follow in due course. What my opinion means, on this website which is primarily aimed at pilots and crew, is that comments and statements made by people who obviously have very little idea what our profession is really about are shown what the primary considerations are, from a crew point of view. Trying to defend the actions of ANY passenger who has been disruptive AND has broken the law, is in my opinion, as a pilot disgusting and shows a lack of understanding of the seriousness of some of these Celtic fans actions.

As always, it is a minority who manage to tarnish the majority through their behaviour. When it comes to defending those who may be charged with offences in this incident I would prefer it to be by their lawyers in a court and not on here by Flight Sim 'experts'. I would hope that all airlines would back their crews as this crew has been backed here.

[Ranger One]

Hamrah,

Don't get me wrong - perhaps on reflection I should have added a comment to clarify my earlier post, to the effect that none of the foregoing should be taken as in any way sympathising with drunken yobbos or cretinous toilet-smokers. I'm not disputing that a serious incident took place. I hope the guilty receive strict justice, and the crew appropriate support.

Concerning:

'You say, Ranger One, that there is a reported circumstances on board this aircraft which would have "annoyed" you. Annoyed you sufficiently to strike a female crew member??'

- with respect, don't be silly. It would depend in what capacity I was on board the aircraft. It might have caused me to make appropriate remarks to the crew member at the time, more likely I would have kept my peace in the heated situation, and taken no action until after arrival.

I simply wished to comment that the threat of arrest allegedly made to the female pax was, literally, incredible as described by MOL - thus my 'IF' to the MOLs account. IF MOLs account were precisely true and complete on this point, I stand by my position that the actions of this member of the crew would be open to considerable question.

Come now, IS it credible that a crew member would threaten a pax with arrest for expressing concern about the possibility of delay, and asking whether or not the smoker(s) had been identified? I hope not.

R1

[tonyt]

well said Danny

as an ex scottish police officer now serving cabin crew I agree 100% with ur comments.

the words 'mincing cabin crew' I find offensive - and as an ex pc who ended up in extensive care courtesy of celtic supporters - well guys - if you haven;t faced it don't try to defend it.

Well done the Capt, CRM at its best surely. And if you think this lot were all innocent, did any of you see the press pictures of the guys on the coaches ? Didn't look like sober, innocent liittle darlings to me.

[Bovey]

I have said my peice in reply to MOL already, but would just add that it is a pleasure to hear how Astraeus is standing by it's crew's actions. Well done to them, it would have been easy to not take such a fine stance, other airlines don't for fear of bad publicity.

Well done once again.

PP

[tango85]

Danny

I hope you do not think the few posts made by me do not belong here merely because I questioned current logic. (Surely contrary views are welcome in any debate?)

I agree with you that a mob can be dangerous, and a captain cannot take any chances with his own and passengers lives. He also has to the make the final decision on what to do, and his company ought to defend his actions, unless they are proven to be erroneous by the subsequent investigation.

As has been mentioned here many times, a debate in advance of the verdict helps pilots to assess alternative courses of action should similar circumstances arise in the meantime. There is no requirement surely to toady a particular party line ?

Whilst it might be sop for UK airlines to call the police for smoking passengers - they cannot be arrested for it. Normally their name and address will be taken and they will recieve a summons through the post. The talk here suggests that it is viewed along the lines of attempted murder. This type of response shows of course that pilots can - er - get emotional too, and I fear that this whole case was an emotional - not a professional response to a percieved danger rather than a real one. The apparent actions of the crew in announcing a group punishment also show they were taking a hard line on ALL the pax and putting them into one category.

As for the fracas down the back, I can well imagine that the cabin crew were ill equipped to deal with drunks showing off to their friends. But if they were merely loud and obnoxious, this was hardly an emergency situation. Likewise, failing to obey the cabin attendants instruction, whilst an offence - it will not result in passengers being marched off to a gulag. They can be summonsed later. "Losing control of the cabin" is a very emotional way to say "the pax will not do what they are told"! I will eat my words if it turns out that they were engaging in an activity which DID endager the aircraft (sawing through the bulkhead ?)

As for the drink - if the airline is serious about enforcement then it should not allow duty free on board. Afterall they cannot hide booze in their shoes.

Second last point - According to some of the pax - the descent was very rapid and steep. What was the immediate danger in the pilot's mind that required this ? there were many inoccent passengers aboard. Was the pilot ANGRY perhaps ?

Having said all that, it was unfair that the airline expected a few cabin attendants to deal with this type of group - given the POTENTIAL for trouble. In future, soccer clubs should be made to send their own marshalls with the flight.

[PaperTiger]

The captain announced police would meet them in Glasgow and all passengers would have to stay on board until the smoker was found.

Damn' right if I'd been on that flight, not smoking or otherwise misbehaving, and heard that announcement I would have been more than a little annoyed. (Shades of GO in Italy).

Keeping the whole 'form' in because one (or more) have done something wrong doesn't belong in kindergarten, let alone on an airliner. OK I wouldn't have punched the CC, but why make such an announcement prior to landing ? At the risk of incurring the wrath of the Astraeans here, a less draconian PA might have curbed the smoking without enraging the rest of the load.

Perhaps some changes to be made when emotions have cooled ? Fire at will.

[PRB44]

HAMRAH
I think your crew did exacly the right thing,and how anyone can say the opposite is beyond me.
The reason I have come on is to say that air rage is not just
with football fans.No,I am not a Celtic fan,and not an avid football
fan.We followed you with 180 Celtic fans to GLA and the cabin
crew said how much fun they were and caused no problems at all.
And for the sad people on this forum,we had both male and female crew on our flight,and both were treated with respect.
I do feel that whether you are coming back from Spain,Greece or
wherever,any threat to the cabin crew should be taken very seriously,and any airline that does not is one I would not like to fly with.
My main point is to add to your comments that it is only the few that mess things up,and Celtic club can't be accountable for that,as the vast majority were well behaved and just enjoying themselves.
Well done to your crew,as far as I am concerned any of our crew
would have taken the same action facing the same situation,and
for other comments regarding the charters for football fans,we
have never had any problems and I hope you continue to do them.We certainly will!!

Bi for now

[Ranger One]

The captain announced police would meet them in Glasgow and all passengers would have to stay on board until the smoker was found.

Damn' right if I'd been on that flight, not smoking or otherwise misbehaving, and heard that announcement I would have been more than a little annoyed. (Shades of GO in Italy).

My point exactly. I'd forgotten about the GO case.

Another thing to bear in mind WRT this PA announcement is that this situation would have taken place on the ramp in Scotland. I remember my barracks-room lawyer training from student days (in Glasgow, as it happens!) - Scots law is different from English law; in England you are under arrest from the moment you are informed you are under arrest. In Scotland you are under arrest any time you're not free to go about your lawful business, you don't need to BE formally arrested.

The possible unlawful arrest of the ~130+/- innocent pax could have had very serious legal consequences for the Captain.

Leave the detention to the local authorities - they're paid to do such things, we're paid to fly, not to use kindergarten techniques to try to flush out lawbreakers.

Having said all that, we have NO confirmation that this PA was ever made - it's mentioned in MOLs accounts, but Hamrah has only stated that it was announced that police would meet the flight, there is ZERO confirmation that the alleged threat to detain the pax indefinitely until the smoker confessed was ever made.

Again don't get me wrong; the crew clearly had a nasty situation on their hands. Kudos to them for resolving it with nothing worse that a bruised arm. That doesn't mean the entire incident is exempt from analysis, from which we can all learn something. There are points to ponder here, that's what I'm doing. NOT taking potshots at the Astraeus crew.

R1