Take your shoes off - Aviation security
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Join Date: Jun 2001
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Take your shoes off - Aviation security
Aimed primarily at the Flight Deck Crew.
Pre Flight Airport Security Checks.
Forgive me everybody if this topic has been discussed recently - I have been absent from the forum for a while.
A new memo has just been published by the flag carrier regarding the levels of scrutiny flight crews must endure if "challenged" by a security person, that is, removal of ones shoes.
May I ask how the Flight Deck Crew community respond to this ludicrous farce and stupidity ?
I base my view on the fact the security person must hold a very high suspicion of a terrorist threat from the uniformed pilot, who has obviously failed the oral assessment and the ID test along with the pilot licence test as false (not to mention the full body scan) to reach the desperate stage that the pretender is hiding some weapon of suitable destruction within or about his/her shoes !
Everybody needs to be on HIGH alert to genuine security breaches, but is this latest nauseating security measure a paper exercise or do you all comply without a moan when so "challenged" ?
TG
Pre Flight Airport Security Checks.
Forgive me everybody if this topic has been discussed recently - I have been absent from the forum for a while.
A new memo has just been published by the flag carrier regarding the levels of scrutiny flight crews must endure if "challenged" by a security person, that is, removal of ones shoes.
May I ask how the Flight Deck Crew community respond to this ludicrous farce and stupidity ?
I base my view on the fact the security person must hold a very high suspicion of a terrorist threat from the uniformed pilot, who has obviously failed the oral assessment and the ID test along with the pilot licence test as false (not to mention the full body scan) to reach the desperate stage that the pretender is hiding some weapon of suitable destruction within or about his/her shoes !
Everybody needs to be on HIGH alert to genuine security breaches, but is this latest nauseating security measure a paper exercise or do you all comply without a moan when so "challenged" ?
TG
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The US security has swung wildly from very little to, since 911, a slightly bizarre level in certain areas. I have stood and waited in the US whilst my co-pilot was progressively 'undressed' in a public security area. Hat off, jacket off, shoes off, watch off, computer open. I try to be impressed, but this person is shortly going to be flying the aeroplane, so has no need to hijack it! I know we live in a PC age where nobody may be 'discriminated' against or specially targeted due to race, creed or colour, but if we were. for instance, to profile the 911 hijackers into a social/racial group, we don't have to look too far to realise that it doesn't extend too far. Now I know that doesn't mean an 80 year old grandmother from Iowa is not necessarily a suicidal hijacker, but when you see such security being applied to them and to the pilots of the aeroplanes themselves, then we really may as well give up.
*never use the words 'bomb','gun','hijack', even in jest, within airfield boundary- you are just what they have been waiting for!
*never use the words 'bomb','gun','hijack', even in jest, within airfield boundary- you are just what they have been waiting for!
The U.S. has gone completely M A D regarding so-called security. Congratulations Bin Laden, thanks to inept and incompetent morons responsible for combating your threat you have succeeded in your mission beyond your wildest dreams. You don't need to actively terrorise the U.S. anymore - they're doing it all by themselves now!
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It is not the US we are talking about.
The British DOT have issued a directive stepping up 'security'. It applies to crew as well and in our case, I believe, 1 in 4 crew members have to endure being thoroughly searched, including shoes through x-ray machines.
I despair at the quite idiotic and pointless procedures we are forced to endure by some brainless pen pusher in the DOT.
The British DOT have issued a directive stepping up 'security'. It applies to crew as well and in our case, I believe, 1 in 4 crew members have to endure being thoroughly searched, including shoes through x-ray machines.
I despair at the quite idiotic and pointless procedures we are forced to endure by some brainless pen pusher in the DOT.
short flights long nights
I can only but agree. This thing is completley out of control.Lets go really stupid for a second. As a captain, I walk completley naked thru security, have a full body search, cavity search and Xrays. If I wanted too, I can still "hijack" my own aircraft if I felt like it. I feel however, that all of us want to go home to our wife/kids/lover/mistress/whatever/ at the end of the day. At the moment, at the airport I fly out of, as a crew member you are subject to more checks than the pax are!!!!!!!!!!!! This is just mad. We go thru profile checks just to get the job in the first place, and are subject to more checks than anyone else I can think of for the rest of our flying life. Of course the way to "calm it down" is to start refusing to be checked. No check...no pass into terminal...no pass into terminal=no crew in aircraft=no crew in aircraft=no depature. I am not saying lets go for anachy (spelling?), there has to be some checks, but things at the moment are way above a normal limit. And another thought, the cleaners on your aircraft prior to depature, what checks have they gone thru? At certain airports in Europe, I suggest the answer would scare you.!!!On a final note, today my Purser (who I have flown with for over 10 years) set the metal dector off twice. The secuirity people, after patting her down, then wanted her to go into a cubicle to take off her skirt, At this point I stopped it , and told them not to worry, as the crew would not be boarding the aircraft. A phone call to ops to explain this, produced some very interesting responses. We did in the end, get on the aircraft, with my pursers dignity in tact, and I cant remember being hijacked in flight!!!!!!!!!!
My point to all this....keep a "even strain" and do not let Osama and his mates cause our lives to get out of control, and dont let people with inflated ideas do the same!!!
Rant over
Join Date: Feb 2000
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I'd been staggered that, especially in the USA, my shoes were 'setting off' the alarm, resulting in the inevitable search.
A compatriot appraised me of the fact that wearing R.M. Williams boots with an all-leather sole results in the nails in the heels setting off the machine. He saves the grief by simply putting his shoes thru in LAX & JFK!!
G'day
A compatriot appraised me of the fact that wearing R.M. Williams boots with an all-leather sole results in the nails in the heels setting off the machine. He saves the grief by simply putting his shoes thru in LAX & JFK!!
G'day
Won't be much longer now.
Crew uniforms will be Speedos and flip-flops.
And the same for the pax
Crew uniforms will be Speedos and flip-flops.
And the same for the pax
Join Date: May 2001
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Last time I flew out of Frankfurt a few weeks ago, everyone on flights to the USA and Britain were being subjected to two security checks. Once when going airside initially and then another between the duty free and gate area.
Everyone who was wearing boots (not shoes) was having to remove them at the second check and have them passed through the scanner. I was chatting to the guy who was searching me while I was standing there in my socks, as my boots were being passed through the scanner three times and asked him why I had to take my boots off "Because they're boots" was the reply.
Now admittedly, I am only humble SLF, but why does it only pose a problem if you are flying to the USA or Britain? If it is so important to search footwear, why is it not done when flying to all destinations?
The way things are going, no one will be able to take anything with them when they fly.
Everyone who was wearing boots (not shoes) was having to remove them at the second check and have them passed through the scanner. I was chatting to the guy who was searching me while I was standing there in my socks, as my boots were being passed through the scanner three times and asked him why I had to take my boots off "Because they're boots" was the reply.
Now admittedly, I am only humble SLF, but why does it only pose a problem if you are flying to the USA or Britain? If it is so important to search footwear, why is it not done when flying to all destinations?
The way things are going, no one will be able to take anything with them when they fly.
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SWABS
BAA LGW now have a nice explosives testing machine where a cotton swab is passed around the soles of shoes and put into a machine for a 10 second analysis.
The experience is like sitting down and having your shoes shined.
Velour stool and all!
The experience is like sitting down and having your shoes shined.
Velour stool and all!
In terms of airport security - its the Americans who are the worst - talk about the most stupid anal people who are completely incapable of using common sense! Its gone completely from one extreme to the other.
The moment the security machine goes off over there one is immediately treated as if one is a terrorist - shoes off, belt off etc etc all delivered in some sort of military boot camp fashion. And there's no form of profiling in the selection of victims either.
At IAD earlier this year it took two hours to get through the most incompetent security procedure I have ever seen. Its no wonder air traffic is struggling to recover if this is how the capital city's main airport handles itself!!
The moment the security machine goes off over there one is immediately treated as if one is a terrorist - shoes off, belt off etc etc all delivered in some sort of military boot camp fashion. And there's no form of profiling in the selection of victims either.
At IAD earlier this year it took two hours to get through the most incompetent security procedure I have ever seen. Its no wonder air traffic is struggling to recover if this is how the capital city's main airport handles itself!!
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Lads ... calm down.
In most cases this is being dealt with by people with some skill and tact and you are hitting the rare cases. Certain airports mentioned above have the toughest scanner detectors in the world
if you are going BA JFK-UK then the when passing through the terminal they are calling for all shoes off - this then causes things to go faster rather than having your shoes rescanned [which happened to me]
Security wins over dignity every time.
In most cases this is being dealt with by people with some skill and tact and you are hitting the rare cases. Certain airports mentioned above have the toughest scanner detectors in the world
if you are going BA JFK-UK then the when passing through the terminal they are calling for all shoes off - this then causes things to go faster rather than having your shoes rescanned [which happened to me]
Security wins over dignity every time.
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My worst experience as SLF was from Boston to LHR. First time through security control involved shoes off, trowsers down as suit trousers have waist tightening metal tags. I wanted to go for a cigarette which involved going back through control and back into the airport again. This time I used a different security control and none of the above happened...where is the consistency! I went for a few more cigarettes as I waited 2 hrs for the plane and not once was I subsequently checked. I am quite happy for them to have security as it has been a way of life for a very long time at LHR but it is only as strong as the weakest link. Some of the security I have experienced on the 40 plus flights I have taken in the last 6 months has been woefully inadequate.
As for checking flight crew...beyond any comprehension.
As for checking flight crew...beyond any comprehension.
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Recently had a similar experience at MEM. Had to sit on a chair in view of all other pax with my shoes and belt removed whilst they were placed through the x-ray. Luckily the belt was more of an accessory than necessity so my dignity stayed intact!
ramsrc.
Also had to have the double security check at FRA a few weeks ago when positioning FRA-STN. Can't really see the logic when they're both identical and you are in a secure area after the first one?
ramsrc.
Also had to have the double security check at FRA a few weeks ago when positioning FRA-STN. Can't really see the logic when they're both identical and you are in a secure area after the first one?
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Security is very much bluster- all show and no knickers. Look at the various catering units around the world- off airport, staffed by low paid and very dodgy looking types. How easy to slip something into an empty catering bin going to a particular flight. It will be transported (with maximun security) and loaded on that flight. Will it be checked before departure- apparently not! It is not part of the Cabin Crew checks to inspect 'empty' bins! Who is to say those oven meals contain food and not something else just waiting to be cooked? We have recently had a diversion following discovery of a suspicious package in just such circumstances. Unless Security is sensible targeted so that resoources can be put elsewhere, it will just be what it has become- a self serving empire farce.
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How easy to slip something into an empty catering bin going to a particular flight. It will be transported (with maximun security) and loaded on that flight..
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Distant Rumble - "Security wins over Liberty"
I'm afraid you are as stupid as the people who devise these ridiculous staff searches! You have missed the point!
I believe we should complain and grumble... lets make their lives hell.
We should also expect a more appropriate robust response from BALPA with reference to the **** we are supposed to endure.
( also... every £ wasted checking a pilot is one that should have been spent looking and focussing on the real threat to our safety)
I'm afraid you are as stupid as the people who devise these ridiculous staff searches! You have missed the point!
I believe we should complain and grumble... lets make their lives hell.
We should also expect a more appropriate robust response from BALPA with reference to the **** we are supposed to endure.
( also... every £ wasted checking a pilot is one that should have been spent looking and focussing on the real threat to our safety)
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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“In terms of airport security - its the Americans who are the worst - talk about the most stupid anal people who are completely incapable of using common sense!”
Doors to Automouth, it was an Englishman, your Mr. Richard Reid, who so kindly pointed out the potential security risks posed by footwear. That notwithstanding, your attempt to define boundaries of blame for the current morass along national lines is pathetic. Either put forward a solution, or put a sock in it mate.
TG, I couldn’t agree more. While(st) I am appalled by the humiliating search procedures that aircrew are occasionally subjected to, I also see the need for it in one form or another. One hundred percent security is not an option, the appetite for risk is up to the individual airport/governmental authorities concerned.
I am still of the opinion that a completely sealed and secure flight-deck door would alleviate the necessity for many of the current security checks, some of which, as mentioned above, are farcical.
Doors to Automouth, it was an Englishman, your Mr. Richard Reid, who so kindly pointed out the potential security risks posed by footwear. That notwithstanding, your attempt to define boundaries of blame for the current morass along national lines is pathetic. Either put forward a solution, or put a sock in it mate.
TG, I couldn’t agree more. While(st) I am appalled by the humiliating search procedures that aircrew are occasionally subjected to, I also see the need for it in one form or another. One hundred percent security is not an option, the appetite for risk is up to the individual airport/governmental authorities concerned.
I am still of the opinion that a completely sealed and secure flight-deck door would alleviate the necessity for many of the current security checks, some of which, as mentioned above, are farcical.
I once took my bike on holiday, and the guy at MAN wanted to X-ray it.
Thing is, a 21" mountainbike doesn't fit through the machine too well. He tried all kinds of different positions then said "Ah well we'll have to go back to the manual procedure" as if it was something they are taught. He then 'felt up' the nuts (on the bike I mean) and wiggled the saddle a bit and said 'fine' letting me check it in.
I think he did that so as not to lose face. Because if I had wanted to use my bike as a bomb I'd have loaded the frame tubes with semtex. He didn't think to check the tubes though.
Thing is, a 21" mountainbike doesn't fit through the machine too well. He tried all kinds of different positions then said "Ah well we'll have to go back to the manual procedure" as if it was something they are taught. He then 'felt up' the nuts (on the bike I mean) and wiggled the saddle a bit and said 'fine' letting me check it in.
I think he did that so as not to lose face. Because if I had wanted to use my bike as a bomb I'd have loaded the frame tubes with semtex. He didn't think to check the tubes though.
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drop your pants, bend over, hold your ankles
deep cavity search!
naw, serious, I'll just politely smile, let them do their usual thing they have to do the whole day after day, and only if they knew what I think about when I smile to them, well, that’s enough for me, catch my drift?
naw, serious, I'll just politely smile, let them do their usual thing they have to do the whole day after day, and only if they knew what I think about when I smile to them, well, that’s enough for me, catch my drift?