FlyBE Pilot Exodus!
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FlyBE Pilot Exodus!
While our post are being (re)moved with the speed of light, we keep on trying to get some info on the original tread.
Thanks for the info smokie. I managed to view it before the tread got moved seconds later!!!!
Anybody more info on how many pilots are leaving and from which bases?
Thanks for the info smokie. I managed to view it before the tread got moved seconds later!!!!
Anybody more info on how many pilots are leaving and from which bases?
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It's pretty obvious the person who started the topic deleted it, probably as it was about to get embarrassing for easyjet. Pity, it was warming up nicely!
I seem to recall that, with the removal from service of the CRJ, we needed to lose about 28 (might have been 23) pilots to avoid redundancies.
Therefore, the company has allowed people to leave with reduced notice periods in order to encourage a reduction in the pilot workforce- this being preferable to redundancies.
The point here is that the company is more than happy to see the people leave, as it saves them having to make redundant those who don't want to leave (ie most of us).
So, what could be perceived as a "flood" of resignations is, in fact, the best thing that could happen (from a financial point of view).
All the talk of "everybody trying to leave" is wishful thinking on some peoples' parts.
There was a lot of other bilge on the original thread, so let's not go there.
I seem to recall that, with the removal from service of the CRJ, we needed to lose about 28 (might have been 23) pilots to avoid redundancies.
Therefore, the company has allowed people to leave with reduced notice periods in order to encourage a reduction in the pilot workforce- this being preferable to redundancies.
The point here is that the company is more than happy to see the people leave, as it saves them having to make redundant those who don't want to leave (ie most of us).
So, what could be perceived as a "flood" of resignations is, in fact, the best thing that could happen (from a financial point of view).
All the talk of "everybody trying to leave" is wishful thinking on some peoples' parts.
There was a lot of other bilge on the original thread, so let's not go there.
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so far I am hearing..3 from BHD CRJ, 1 BHD 146, 2 LGW 146, 3 EDI 146. Not a lot in the grand scheme of things but quite a few attending Orange tree hugging seminars. They're not all off to EZY so the market must be picking up a bit.
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RD check your data please, it's a bit raw
more than a few who wanted to leave had to sit out their 3 months and could not leave directly, apparently when the flood started to increase (I will not start about the tricks the company plays over the bonds to these people, oeps, I just did)
Carlos, some additions to your list : BHD is now 4 ex CRJ, BHX is losing 4 ex CRJ, wasn't EDI 4 ex 146? and believe the Channel Islands are losing a few also, don't forget we lost beside all this about 8 CRJ captains over the summer/autumn
Carlos, some additions to your list : BHD is now 4 ex CRJ, BHX is losing 4 ex CRJ, wasn't EDI 4 ex 146? and believe the Channel Islands are losing a few also, don't forget we lost beside all this about 8 CRJ captains over the summer/autumn
Last edited by Sensible Garage; 3rd Dec 2002 at 11:22.
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FlyBe management need to stop thinking of the present and start looking at the future. The reason people are leaving now is because the market is picking up and they have somewhere else to go. Yes it make's it easier for them to leave without needing to give 3 months notice but when that deal ends do you really think it will stop the 'flood' ? Basically there will always be a certain percentage who are thinking of leaving, the difference now is that job they have been waiting for is becoming available, having to give 3 months notice is not going to stop them, just delay things a little.
For those of you who think I'm trying to scare the management into giving us a huge pay rise - think what you like. What is really going to P*%S me off is when we find ourselves short of pilots next year, the increased training costs are going to eat away at any profits and probably that huuuuuge pay rise too.
For those of you who think I'm trying to scare the management into giving us a huge pay rise - think what you like. What is really going to P*%S me off is when we find ourselves short of pilots next year, the increased training costs are going to eat away at any profits and probably that huuuuuge pay rise too.
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Puddle Jumper. I agree with you only partially. If the exodus continues and the company has to start training new pilots they’ll still have to do something to stop people from leaving.
And I guess a pay rise would certainly help to stop a lot of pilots from leaving???
It would also help I guess if the company didn’t think the future of the company is the Q400.
I’m sure it’s a great aircraft to fly and an awesome machine compared to the 200’s and 300’s.
But turboprop’s are not the future for a large regional carrier, the lack of speed, comfort, reliability and passenger appeal.
I know that seat/mile costs is a big thing in our company and that it is used to justify the use of the D8. But I often wonder if Exeter took into consideration that with a Jet one can simply do more sectors a day because it’s faster and thus increasing revenues.
I’m convinced that the D8 would make an excellent freighter, but scheduled airline ops???
And I guess a pay rise would certainly help to stop a lot of pilots from leaving???
It would also help I guess if the company didn’t think the future of the company is the Q400.
I’m sure it’s a great aircraft to fly and an awesome machine compared to the 200’s and 300’s.
But turboprop’s are not the future for a large regional carrier, the lack of speed, comfort, reliability and passenger appeal.
I know that seat/mile costs is a big thing in our company and that it is used to justify the use of the D8. But I often wonder if Exeter took into consideration that with a Jet one can simply do more sectors a day because it’s faster and thus increasing revenues.
I’m convinced that the D8 would make an excellent freighter, but scheduled airline ops???
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I believe there currently is a shortage of CRJ crew. Apparently, people have been offered CRJ courses. Meanwhile, somebody who is rated on the CRJ is doing a course for the dash, which does not make sense to me.
I believe that people are leaving because they are fed up with FlyBE. Salaries are way below the average, no payrise whatsoever - not even inflation - for years, frozen duty pay, no real career progression, etc.
These issues will have to be addressed soon.
If the company are changing the ration of TP versus JETs in favour of the turboprops, I reckon many people will leave simply because they are stuck on the dash without any real prospects of getting on a jet in the forseeable future.
I believe that people are leaving because they are fed up with FlyBE. Salaries are way below the average, no payrise whatsoever - not even inflation - for years, frozen duty pay, no real career progression, etc.
These issues will have to be addressed soon.
If the company are changing the ration of TP versus JETs in favour of the turboprops, I reckon many people will leave simply because they are stuck on the dash without any real prospects of getting on a jet in the forseeable future.
2BE or not 2BE
Regarding your argument about turboprops and jets I'm not sure how valid it is. I believe that the q400 sector times from BHX to EDI ( for example ) are only about 5 minutes less than the 146, so given 8 sectors a day that only leaves you with an extra 40 minutes airborne time to earn more money - perhaps a BHX-MAN route might just be fitted in. Admittedly an Airbus or Boeing might gain more time but would require a huge investment in marketing to fill it, and marketing seems to have died down after the flurry in the summer.
If you want to get more sectors in on a network such as Flybe has the only way is to have a longer flying day - most flybe aircraft are back on the ground by 2100hrs. But to do that you need to attract passengers to fill them.
Don't get me wrong - I'd rather fly a jet and the way things are it looks like I might end up flying a Q400 instead but the problems are not just about aircraft types - management and marketing are the two words which spring to mind.
Regarding your argument about turboprops and jets I'm not sure how valid it is. I believe that the q400 sector times from BHX to EDI ( for example ) are only about 5 minutes less than the 146, so given 8 sectors a day that only leaves you with an extra 40 minutes airborne time to earn more money - perhaps a BHX-MAN route might just be fitted in. Admittedly an Airbus or Boeing might gain more time but would require a huge investment in marketing to fill it, and marketing seems to have died down after the flurry in the summer.
If you want to get more sectors in on a network such as Flybe has the only way is to have a longer flying day - most flybe aircraft are back on the ground by 2100hrs. But to do that you need to attract passengers to fill them.
Don't get me wrong - I'd rather fly a jet and the way things are it looks like I might end up flying a Q400 instead but the problems are not just about aircraft types - management and marketing are the two words which spring to mind.
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keepitlit
Simply that some people long for that story to come true, because they think it would result in a salary hike.
crowndove
Having read that letter, I see no conflict with what I said- remember that I was talking about the situation when resignations with reduced notice were first publicised. We have now had as many resignations as we required, so we now want to retain any on the CRJ fleet who want to stay. In fact, I think that letter states the situation well, and is a welcome piece of encouragement from management.
Sensible Garage
Obviously, as soon as it was clear that we would not have to make redundancies, the "early departure" scheme stopped. What did you expect to happen? The bond is a completely seperate issue, it is there to cover training costs- the company is quite within its rights to enforce the bond, the conditions of which you agreed with when you signed it. Allowing people to leave early was a concession to permit folk to take up other employment if they so desired. Prefer forced redundancies, would you?
AMEX
There are no current plans to recruit, apart from the Cabair cadets we have committed to.
puddle-jumper
The reason people are leaving now, is because 1) this is the usual time for the charter operators to hire for the summer; and 2) there is an ongoing opportunity with the low-cost carriers.
People will always move through an airline like flybe. There hasn't yet been a "flood", and I will bet money there won't be.
Training costs, well, sure there will be training costs when we hire again- but the cost of keeping crews sitting on their tods doing nothing for six months is fairly expensive too.
oic
There is CRJ course provisionally pencilled in for early in the new year. It is the course that was deferred in September. It is unlikely to proceed as we are unlikely to be flying the aircraft in the new year.
You may be fed up, but I doubt you speak for the majority. You are wrong in any case, I got my increment last year so I have had a (very small) pay rise. Didn't you get yours?
There is no real career progression if you are the Jet Flight Manager, otherwise, there is. If you think it is slow in flybe, try Britannia or Monarch...
It's funny how you contradict yourself, you start out saying people are fed up and everybody wants to leave, then say that there is no career progression to the jet- because, presumably, nobody is leaving the jet fleet!
excrab
You are partly right- however, the real limit on flying for us is that a lot of the airports we fly to close early (like the Channel Islands or Belfast City for example). Very few people really want to travel on commuter routes late at night in any case.
I find it hard to pick faults with a management that has got us out of a serious hole since last year- and now has us back in the black, more than can be said for many airlines- and a marketing department that has spent a huge amount of money and has seen a corresponding rise in passenger figures- not to mention the huge success of our website. Perhaps you need to talk to somebody who was at Kickstart to see just how well we have done.
Simply that some people long for that story to come true, because they think it would result in a salary hike.
crowndove
Having read that letter, I see no conflict with what I said- remember that I was talking about the situation when resignations with reduced notice were first publicised. We have now had as many resignations as we required, so we now want to retain any on the CRJ fleet who want to stay. In fact, I think that letter states the situation well, and is a welcome piece of encouragement from management.
Sensible Garage
Obviously, as soon as it was clear that we would not have to make redundancies, the "early departure" scheme stopped. What did you expect to happen? The bond is a completely seperate issue, it is there to cover training costs- the company is quite within its rights to enforce the bond, the conditions of which you agreed with when you signed it. Allowing people to leave early was a concession to permit folk to take up other employment if they so desired. Prefer forced redundancies, would you?
AMEX
There are no current plans to recruit, apart from the Cabair cadets we have committed to.
puddle-jumper
The reason people are leaving now, is because 1) this is the usual time for the charter operators to hire for the summer; and 2) there is an ongoing opportunity with the low-cost carriers.
People will always move through an airline like flybe. There hasn't yet been a "flood", and I will bet money there won't be.
Training costs, well, sure there will be training costs when we hire again- but the cost of keeping crews sitting on their tods doing nothing for six months is fairly expensive too.
oic
There is CRJ course provisionally pencilled in for early in the new year. It is the course that was deferred in September. It is unlikely to proceed as we are unlikely to be flying the aircraft in the new year.
You may be fed up, but I doubt you speak for the majority. You are wrong in any case, I got my increment last year so I have had a (very small) pay rise. Didn't you get yours?
There is no real career progression if you are the Jet Flight Manager, otherwise, there is. If you think it is slow in flybe, try Britannia or Monarch...
It's funny how you contradict yourself, you start out saying people are fed up and everybody wants to leave, then say that there is no career progression to the jet- because, presumably, nobody is leaving the jet fleet!
excrab
You are partly right- however, the real limit on flying for us is that a lot of the airports we fly to close early (like the Channel Islands or Belfast City for example). Very few people really want to travel on commuter routes late at night in any case.
I find it hard to pick faults with a management that has got us out of a serious hole since last year- and now has us back in the black, more than can be said for many airlines- and a marketing department that has spent a huge amount of money and has seen a corresponding rise in passenger figures- not to mention the huge success of our website. Perhaps you need to talk to somebody who was at Kickstart to see just how well we have done.
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Excrab.
When I mentioned the word Jet, I was talking about an average modern Jet, not the 146, which even referred to as turboprop by some of it’s own crew.
I was thinking about Jet’s like Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, Dornier, Embraer or Fokker.
Raw Data.
How about the lack of communication with it’s personnel?
There seems to be a lot of info about the company on PPRuNe.
For instance You are saying we are back in the black.
I haven’t seen that in any company info!?!?
When I mentioned the word Jet, I was talking about an average modern Jet, not the 146, which even referred to as turboprop by some of it’s own crew.
I was thinking about Jet’s like Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, Dornier, Embraer or Fokker.
Raw Data.
I find it hard to pick faults
There seems to be a lot of info about the company on PPRuNe.
For instance You are saying we are back in the black.
I haven’t seen that in any company info!?!?
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RD:
I don't recall saying that I was fed up - nor am I claiming to be speaking on behalf of the majority - I just stated that I believe that those people who leave do so for the reasons outlined in my post.
Increments are just a (very small) reward for your loyalty. I would not call this a pay-rise. If you worked for EasyJet, you could look forward to a 5% loyalty bonus after two years - a commander would get an extra £3000. In comparison, I would classify our 500-odd quid as an insult.
I am not contradicting myself by stating that a lot of people will be stuck on the dash. I suggest you re-read my post.
"you start out saying people are fed up and everybody wants to leave"
I did not. I said that people are leaving, I never said everybody wants to leave.
", then say that there is no career progression to the jet- because, presumably, nobody is leaving the jet fleet!"
Exactly! That's why people are stuck on the Dash! More TP's = Less Jet jobs.
I would appreciate it if you took the time to read the post carefully before commenting.
Cheers!
I don't recall saying that I was fed up - nor am I claiming to be speaking on behalf of the majority - I just stated that I believe that those people who leave do so for the reasons outlined in my post.
Increments are just a (very small) reward for your loyalty. I would not call this a pay-rise. If you worked for EasyJet, you could look forward to a 5% loyalty bonus after two years - a commander would get an extra £3000. In comparison, I would classify our 500-odd quid as an insult.
I am not contradicting myself by stating that a lot of people will be stuck on the dash. I suggest you re-read my post.
"you start out saying people are fed up and everybody wants to leave"
I did not. I said that people are leaving, I never said everybody wants to leave.
", then say that there is no career progression to the jet- because, presumably, nobody is leaving the jet fleet!"
Exactly! That's why people are stuck on the Dash! More TP's = Less Jet jobs.
I would appreciate it if you took the time to read the post carefully before commenting.
Cheers!
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RD,
Well today I've got it on good authority that 3 more 146 pilots
have resigned, one is off to the land of Orange starting very early in the New Year.
You were saying about no more early releases ?
Well today I've got it on good authority that 3 more 146 pilots
have resigned, one is off to the land of Orange starting very early in the New Year.
You were saying about no more early releases ?
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Hey chaps- do not worry - seen it all before over many years,
pilots will move on at this time of year (ask Jo S)may cost the company in further training expense!
Also, I know a lot of pilots who found the grass was not greener on the otherside - more brown and working b*****ks off.
pilots will move on at this time of year (ask Jo S)may cost the company in further training expense!
Also, I know a lot of pilots who found the grass was not greener on the otherside - more brown and working b*****ks off.
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2 BE or not 2 BE
That information was aired at Kickstart. See your Base Captain. Or ask your Fleet Manager. The info is there if you want it. Or do you want a personal call from the GM???
By faults, I was talking about faults in the management of the business- there is absolutely no doubt that our management have done an excellent job of that. Communication is icing on the cake compared to keeping the business afloat- however I would be the first to acknowledge that communication is woefully inadequate.
oic
If your pay went up, it was a pay rise. In my version of english, at any rate...!!!
Sure. We could do that too, but the company would fold the next day. We can only pay what we can afford. When we are making more profit, salaries will go up. You can hardly use easyjet as a good example, as pressure there seems to be on lowering salaries, not raising them- not to mention their practice of giving their managers a huge sum and not rewarding the troops accordingly. Besides, you have to put up with a lot of crap to get the salary (working all hours, having them promise you a base and then change their minds, etc).
Not unless we get rid of jets, otherwise the jet jobs stay the same.
I did read your posts (on the previous thread as well) and stand by my reply.
Smokie
They were either released back at the beginning of this saga, or they have cut a deal. I didn't say that there would be no more early relaeases, only that the company would do that if they needed to in order to avoid redundancies. Unless you know all the facts of each individual case, you aren't telling us anything new.
How about the lack of communication with it’s personnel?For instance You are saying we are back in the black.
I haven’t seen that in any company info!?!?
I haven’t seen that in any company info!?!?
By faults, I was talking about faults in the management of the business- there is absolutely no doubt that our management have done an excellent job of that. Communication is icing on the cake compared to keeping the business afloat- however I would be the first to acknowledge that communication is woefully inadequate.
oic
Increments are just a (very small) reward for your loyalty. I would not call this a pay-rise.
If you worked for EasyJet, you could look forward to a 5% loyalty bonus after two years - a commander would get an extra £3000. In comparison, I would classify our 500-odd quid as an insult.
Exactly! That's why people are stuck on the Dash! More TP's = Less Jet jobs.
I did read your posts (on the previous thread as well) and stand by my reply.
Smokie
They were either released back at the beginning of this saga, or they have cut a deal. I didn't say that there would be no more early relaeases, only that the company would do that if they needed to in order to avoid redundancies. Unless you know all the facts of each individual case, you aren't telling us anything new.
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RD:
From your post:
"Not unless we get rid of jets, otherwise the jet jobs stay the same."
Absolutely! And since we are reducing the number of jets and increasing the number of TP's, that's exactly what's happening.
From my original post:
"If the company are changing the ratio of TP versus JETs in favour of the turboprops, I reckon many people will leave simply because they are stuck on the dash without any real prospects of getting on a jet in the forseeable future"
Hope you get my point.
From your post:
"If your pay went up, it was a pay rise. In my version of english, at any rate...!!!"
I would argue that if your salary increased at a rate lower than inflation, you would experience a pay-cut. If you want to call it a pay-rise, be my guest, but I'd say your remark is a bit naive.
Cheers.
From your post:
"Not unless we get rid of jets, otherwise the jet jobs stay the same."
Absolutely! And since we are reducing the number of jets and increasing the number of TP's, that's exactly what's happening.
From my original post:
"If the company are changing the ratio of TP versus JETs in favour of the turboprops, I reckon many people will leave simply because they are stuck on the dash without any real prospects of getting on a jet in the forseeable future"
Hope you get my point.
From your post:
"If your pay went up, it was a pay rise. In my version of english, at any rate...!!!"
I would argue that if your salary increased at a rate lower than inflation, you would experience a pay-cut. If you want to call it a pay-rise, be my guest, but I'd say your remark is a bit naive.
Cheers.