Ba Longhaul Yesterday Ex-t4
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
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BAB2B, read my post again and you may notice that not once did I suggest you were one of the 'graduate managers with little or no operational experience'. Your response indicates that you do however, consider yourself to be one of them anyway. I once worked for Big Airways and my memories are that management regarded the 'workers' as a sub-human species to be beaten into compliance at every opportunity. It wasn't accidental heavy handedness either; these guys didn't just read 'Theory X' - they adopted it in its entirety, as official Personnel Policy.
The point is, 'workers' are really people. Ordinary, intelligent, thinking people, who are quite capable of getting things done by themselves as long as they are treated with respect. Disrespect them, as Big Airways management did (or still seems to do) and you see the consequences for yourself. Work is as much about social relationships as selling your time to an employer for money. Now, I don't buy 'Theory Y' any more than 'Theory X' but I still reckon scientific management as practiced at Waterworld stinks.
The gales will blow, the sausages will disappear and the crew bus drivers will continue to take their infuriating breaks, until management finally stop trying to exercise 'managerial authority' and respect their employees as human beings.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
The point is, 'workers' are really people. Ordinary, intelligent, thinking people, who are quite capable of getting things done by themselves as long as they are treated with respect. Disrespect them, as Big Airways management did (or still seems to do) and you see the consequences for yourself. Work is as much about social relationships as selling your time to an employer for money. Now, I don't buy 'Theory Y' any more than 'Theory X' but I still reckon scientific management as practiced at Waterworld stinks.
The gales will blow, the sausages will disappear and the crew bus drivers will continue to take their infuriating breaks, until management finally stop trying to exercise 'managerial authority' and respect their employees as human beings.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
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History
Once again this is yet another trip down memory lane the outcome of which will amount to nothing positive.i.e. there is a long history of stoppages for any number of reasons of which the root cause is the often posturing Management v Union, the passengers lose again and many surely do not come back. It is about time that BA sorted out one or two things, 'Do managers want to run the company' or ' Do the union reps run it'. Does anyone including many BA staff care less, because if they do not resolve these diferences eventually BA will go down the tubes, a direction it appears to be on course for regardless. No doubt its demise is greeted with glee by many others in the business.
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Jet 11 'BAB2B - I am glad that you know what it takes to run a successful business, please take some advice from someone a lot older than you - you will not get far in BA with that attitude'.
What's your age got to do with anything? Just because B2B may be young, so what, perhaps his ideas are capable of making BA more successful. Certainly the rantings against him, rather than constructive debate only enhances the 'them n us' attitude.
What's your age got to do with anything? Just because B2B may be young, so what, perhaps his ideas are capable of making BA more successful. Certainly the rantings against him, rather than constructive debate only enhances the 'them n us' attitude.
Join Date: Oct 2000
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"We know you had a choice of airline, so we thank you for choosing British Airways to leave you grounded. We look forward to your repeat custom where we will attempt to give you an even lower standard of service. British Airways, it's quicker to walk".
Harry
p.s. I stole some of British Airways air from the aircraft today. Breathed it right in whilst on the aircraft and refused to exhale until I was sure no graduate management types were watching!
Harry
p.s. I stole some of British Airways air from the aircraft today. Breathed it right in whilst on the aircraft and refused to exhale until I was sure no graduate management types were watching!
Join Date: Apr 2000
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So, moving back to the original thread...
Can anyone explain why I went to LHR to collect someone last Sunday from BA274 SAN-LHR. While waiting for the flight to arrive I saw numerous BA 777, 767 and 747 aircraft landing, just not the 777 I wanted to see. Turns out it diverted to Prestwick, arriving just 35mins after its ETA at LHR. Captain explained on board it was due to the winds he had diverted. Seems odd when UA, AA, Kuwait B777 all landed, plus all the BA traffic. I could not see what was happening at the terminals (I was at the Green Man
)
Then the soup thickens further... The same crew then operated the flight back from PIK to London ... Gatwick. According to the Skipper this was because there was no parking available at T4. The passengers were all offered National Express tickets to LHR on arrival but told that the coaches were "in chaos" because of the winds... Great customer care. No letter explaining the diversion(s), just a cheery wave at LGW.
Any ideas?
Can anyone explain why I went to LHR to collect someone last Sunday from BA274 SAN-LHR. While waiting for the flight to arrive I saw numerous BA 777, 767 and 747 aircraft landing, just not the 777 I wanted to see. Turns out it diverted to Prestwick, arriving just 35mins after its ETA at LHR. Captain explained on board it was due to the winds he had diverted. Seems odd when UA, AA, Kuwait B777 all landed, plus all the BA traffic. I could not see what was happening at the terminals (I was at the Green Man
)Then the soup thickens further... The same crew then operated the flight back from PIK to London ... Gatwick. According to the Skipper this was because there was no parking available at T4. The passengers were all offered National Express tickets to LHR on arrival but told that the coaches were "in chaos" because of the winds... Great customer care. No letter explaining the diversion(s), just a cheery wave at LGW.
Any ideas?
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Interesting reading for rotary chappie who only travels plank wing as SLF. I was on my way back from an overseas tour and at my departure airport told that neither BA nor KLM were flying as their flights had been cancelled due to the 'tail end of a hurricane' passing through Europe. No problem with that if the weather's bad. Then had a wait of more than 7 hours at Frankfurt with no explanations forthcoming from any of the (very few) BA staff available at T2. The Securicor? staff at the check-in desks were, however, doing their best and BA should be thankful to them for doing a good job. Eventually arrived at BHX which was about the worst place to arrive in UK (and not where I had been trying to get). The flightdeck/cabin crew were doing their best with apologies, but according to them the delayed departure was due to ATC delays at BHX! Not impressed at all with lack of any credible explanations from BA, but looking through this thread, it seems the company has a lot of other problems which is a shame as I always try and fly British if I can. Makes one think though....
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About 5 BA flights form LHR and 1 from LGW also diverted to STN -as everyone else was getting in to LGW at the time I have no idea why they all went to STN and not LGW (I believe that 1 flight from LHR diverted into LGW)
The reason that I heard that BA were diverting flights away from LHR was that LHR was using the crosswind runway 23 and this cuts down on the amount of ramp parking at T4 - can anyone confirm this?
The reason that I heard that BA were diverting flights away from LHR was that LHR was using the crosswind runway 23 and this cuts down on the amount of ramp parking at T4 - can anyone confirm this?
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Chaps, I'm one of 'them'. Believe me, they don't pay us enough to lie! We are really not in the business of telling whoppers not because they 'want' us not to (which they don't-is that clear?), but we , the crew, will not do it ! We are not liars. You can believe the explanations you were given because they are true. You have to remember that when disruptions happen, airline lines of communication are very long and thin. There is no strange agenda, people are doing their best to get things back on track. It takes only one little thing- a crewmember running out of hours, weather, technical problems, strikes, security alerts, and it's all derailed. You are in aeroplanes with a very limited endurance and minimal time to make decisions. Sometimes it sounds as if we are really deceiving everybody whenever we can because there is a 'master plan' we don't want to let onto you, and we really deep down know all about flying saucers and Area 51 and whether the Americans really landed on the moon. Can't you just believe what the crew say? There is actually an instruction not to lie, believe it or not ! Where you get different stories is when different departments have different stories themselves. In any disruption, it is hell, and the staff are going at it 110%- so busy they don't have time or anybody to tell them the story. By all accounts it was pretty awful last week- I didn't see it. But when you have people asking you "when is the fog going to lift?", "when will the winds go?", how are the staff to know? They are just going at it for all they are worth, and they don't have any better answer than yourselves half the time. Let's leave the conspiracy, master plan theories behind!
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Just to get the picture right lads regarding the high winds experienced at LHR last week
HAL were definatly getting the blame on 131.9. The 6 stands they lost due to 23 in use were given back to them at 10:00 so why they were in such a mess who knows, especially as all the other terminals were basically operating normally bar one or 2 delays. in fact terminal 3 only had 2 flights canx.
There was space at lGW to divert the 11 aircraft we had on the ground at one stage, Some of these were actually on the ground more then 4 hours !!!.
2 medical emergencies were also declared by BA036 and BA038 at nearly the same time and BA still could not find stands. The good old ops boys came to the rescue again even talking the flight crews on 131.9 to keep them informed of the impending arrivals of the ambulances.
A total fiasco from start to finish by T4 and they were even asked if they would like assistance in deplaning the pax from the airfield with coaches. This was deemed as bad customer service for the pax. I suppose sitting on the ground for 5 hours isnt !!.
Perhaps its about time BA took responsiblity for there downfalls and not blame everyone else.
HAL were definatly getting the blame on 131.9. The 6 stands they lost due to 23 in use were given back to them at 10:00 so why they were in such a mess who knows, especially as all the other terminals were basically operating normally bar one or 2 delays. in fact terminal 3 only had 2 flights canx.
There was space at lGW to divert the 11 aircraft we had on the ground at one stage, Some of these were actually on the ground more then 4 hours !!!.
2 medical emergencies were also declared by BA036 and BA038 at nearly the same time and BA still could not find stands. The good old ops boys came to the rescue again even talking the flight crews on 131.9 to keep them informed of the impending arrivals of the ambulances.
A total fiasco from start to finish by T4 and they were even asked if they would like assistance in deplaning the pax from the airfield with coaches. This was deemed as bad customer service for the pax. I suppose sitting on the ground for 5 hours isnt !!.
Perhaps its about time BA took responsiblity for there downfalls and not blame everyone else.
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Last Monday I dropped a friend off at T4 for a BA flight to Tokyo. When she phoned from Japan, after the flight she said that T4 was a nightmare, with passengers everywhere and chaos reigned. Her own flight had started off quite well, but once on board they then had a 4 hour delay before take-off, which the crew said was due to a fuel problem that needed technical assisstance for rectification. So, it seems that a small part, at least, of the congestion on the ground at LHR was not due to the wind.
When unexpected s**t happens, it seems something like Kamm's theory applies: for every doubling of the s**t content you have to square the effort to resolve it.
It happens in any situation where you have people and stress involved, and particularly when the freight happens to be articulate.
BA as the supposed epitome of efficiency and as a provider of service passengers expect to be impeccable, may be particularly prone to virulent criticism when the fertilizer hits the ventilator. In many other places the discomfort and doubt as to what was likely to happen in the next fifteen minutes or three hours would be met by resigned shrugs.
Airlines and many other industries have crisis centres for dealing with disasters and abnormal incidents - oilspills in my field for instance. I'm wondering (just a mental excercise, not suggesting) how airlines could best attempt to deal with passenger angst. Could schedule disruption not be treated as a crisis in something like the same way an accident is?
I'm not suggesting spin-doctoring. But inevitably, in the stress of events, line people under stress develop their own answer formula - I mean ground staff, not flight crew, NSF) or they just keep quiet and let the passengers stew (could there possibly be a standard sort of way to announce "your baggage hasn't been delivered because a) aircraft are all over the place out of sequence and b) when we tried bringing your bags from the aircraft the luggage trolleys were all blown over by the wind"). Surely there must be a way to help the people at the front line get appropriate messages across to the customers.
I don't think the size of the airline makes a blind bit of difference.
It happens in any situation where you have people and stress involved, and particularly when the freight happens to be articulate.
BA as the supposed epitome of efficiency and as a provider of service passengers expect to be impeccable, may be particularly prone to virulent criticism when the fertilizer hits the ventilator. In many other places the discomfort and doubt as to what was likely to happen in the next fifteen minutes or three hours would be met by resigned shrugs.
Airlines and many other industries have crisis centres for dealing with disasters and abnormal incidents - oilspills in my field for instance. I'm wondering (just a mental excercise, not suggesting) how airlines could best attempt to deal with passenger angst. Could schedule disruption not be treated as a crisis in something like the same way an accident is?
I'm not suggesting spin-doctoring. But inevitably, in the stress of events, line people under stress develop their own answer formula - I mean ground staff, not flight crew, NSF) or they just keep quiet and let the passengers stew (could there possibly be a standard sort of way to announce "your baggage hasn't been delivered because a) aircraft are all over the place out of sequence and b) when we tried bringing your bags from the aircraft the luggage trolleys were all blown over by the wind"). Surely there must be a way to help the people at the front line get appropriate messages across to the customers.
I don't think the size of the airline makes a blind bit of difference.
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So what exactly are the wind limits for such items as Elevators, Jetties, steps etc. Obviously, if T1/2/3 and LGW operated with the same equipment then the problem lies with T4 Management/Unions. Sadly, lots of good BA people who tried valiently to keep the operation going were caught up in the crossfire. The problems lie squarely within the confines of T4. However, no one need ask why BA turned a blind eye to the alledged Cabin Crew involvement.....
Join Date: Jun 2002
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BigBrutha,
'the more meanial the job'.
We all have a job to do but why should the job of baggage handler/loader be described as 'meanial'.
You get the passengers from a to b as quickly and safely as possible,we the cabin crew attempt to deliver the best possible
service be it with a sub-standard product.......... but the loaders just do the bags and cargo!!.
They are an equally important part of the customer service chain
as we are,because no matter what we do well if the punter does not get their bag quickly or not at all thats what they remember.
If their union decides that due to the fact that T4 is more open to the winds (and I don't know if this is true) and it is unsafe then so be it.
In my three years on the ramp at Heathrow I knew two people who died at work in accidents and at least six serious injuries,
including severed fingers due to an aircraft door.
BALPA make decisions on your behalf and the T4 union made this decision for the safety of their members.I fully understand the chaos this caused and would not believe the union would have
wanted it this to happen for fun.
I end by saying BALPA may shortly have to fight for your pay claim and your future(I wish them success) and it will not be for I ,my union or any other union to get involved in your politics however I do wish my flight crew colleagues good luck in the coming months.
Bye from a 'meanial' member of cabin crew!!!
NJR.
'the more meanial the job'.
We all have a job to do but why should the job of baggage handler/loader be described as 'meanial'.
You get the passengers from a to b as quickly and safely as possible,we the cabin crew attempt to deliver the best possible
service be it with a sub-standard product.......... but the loaders just do the bags and cargo!!.
They are an equally important part of the customer service chain
as we are,because no matter what we do well if the punter does not get their bag quickly or not at all thats what they remember.
If their union decides that due to the fact that T4 is more open to the winds (and I don't know if this is true) and it is unsafe then so be it.
In my three years on the ramp at Heathrow I knew two people who died at work in accidents and at least six serious injuries,
including severed fingers due to an aircraft door.
BALPA make decisions on your behalf and the T4 union made this decision for the safety of their members.I fully understand the chaos this caused and would not believe the union would have
wanted it this to happen for fun.
I end by saying BALPA may shortly have to fight for your pay claim and your future(I wish them success) and it will not be for I ,my union or any other union to get involved in your politics however I do wish my flight crew colleagues good luck in the coming months.
Bye from a 'meanial' member of cabin crew!!!
NJR.
I was in Nice. Easyjet running with about 30 minutes delay. BMI (my flight) departed 1.25 hours late, finally deplaned 3.5 hours late (an an hour on the ground at LHR waiting for a gate), but they got us home. BA cancelled (quote from board behind BA desk at Nice) "because of 100 kmh winds!!!!" (they were down to 25 kmh by that time). And your on your own because it's not our fault.
Great publicity for BA: people so glad they paid more to travel with a full service carrier.
Great publicity for BA: people so glad they paid more to travel with a full service carrier.
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Just wondering, did the wind rised after the driver consumed the sausage? There must be a connection, I usually refuse airline sausages because they give me a terrible gas.
Millions of pounds lost over a sausage, can't believe my eyes, only in the Blighty.
A Sausage! A Sausage! My Kingdom for a Sausage!
Cheers
KAOS
Millions of pounds lost over a sausage, can't believe my eyes, only in the Blighty.
A Sausage! A Sausage! My Kingdom for a Sausage!
Cheers
KAOS
Join Date: Jul 2001
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If all this is true, the airline must of lost over a million pounds
and all over a sausage that was going to be thrown, or do we recycle food now!!!
The person that should have been fired should be the person that fired the driver for not using his disretion.
Instead BA and associated companies now have Egg over their face!!!
and all over a sausage that was going to be thrown, or do we recycle food now!!!
The person that should have been fired should be the person that fired the driver for not using his disretion.
Instead BA and associated companies now have Egg over their face!!!
