Ba Longhaul Yesterday Ex-t4
Controversial, moi?
Pandora
I'm not trying to sound or be superior but cover my back.
I generally agree with your post.
The wider issue has been trivialised by the sledgehammer management approach.
I'm not trying to sound or be superior but cover my back.
I generally agree with your post.
The wider issue has been trivialised by the sledgehammer management approach.
The food destined for the bin is of little consequence, in all likelihood, however the china/glassware/cutlery/trays accompanying it very often end up discarded, never to be used again and do cost money, when added up over a year, and over the airlines many stations.
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Sweeny wrote:
> I can see the headlines now "Bacon, Sausage and Egg cause a total stoppage at Heathrow"
Eat airline food and it's not a "stoppage" you risk. More likely it will be a "one out, all out" situation :-)
> I can see the headlines now "Bacon, Sausage and Egg cause a total stoppage at Heathrow"
Eat airline food and it's not a "stoppage" you risk. More likely it will be a "one out, all out" situation :-)
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A tip for anyone with cans from the bars from aircraft - they are dotted on the underside to show they are company stock. Also as has already been stated - worried about barcodes?...remove em!!
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This is generating an immense amount of negativity in the frontline community. Common sense dictates that making off with half the duty free trolly and a couple of B.C.F.s is clearly theft. But where exactly does one draw the technical line. You could argue, successfully it would seem that a used newspaper and a sausage are still company property ....but what about brewing up a cup of nescafe on the turnaround. Crew can't just jump off and trot over to the nearest Starbucks. Doesn't a duty of care by the employer enter into the equation? What if we brought in our own coffee but still used the company hot water?...am I still allowed to drink a glass of O.J on a 12 hour LAX or do I have to stick religiously to crew water...
None but a blockhead
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I don't know about this barcode business; I've never heard about anything like that -- and I've worked for various publishing companies and know plenty more.
From the point of view of production, printing and distribution, it would be a considerable expense -- especially if more than one company wanted the option. Modifying the front page for a very short run, even in these digital days, is not something you want to do. You'd charge a lot for it, certainly more than the company could hope to get back by spotting employee theft... it'd be cheaper, easier and less hassle for the airlines to employ a minimum-wage teenager with a "Compliments of..." rubber stamp!
And has anyone heard of anyone being nabbed this way, or seen a barcode reader sitting around in a managerial office?
Sorry -- sounds like an urban legend to me. But if anyone wants to know for sure, just buy a paper from Smiths on the same day, and compare barcodes...
As for the general ethos of handing out spare sausages to cold and hungry drivers... I would hope that any company that respected its employees, especially those in positions of responsibility such as cabin or flight crew, would let them make such decisions.
R
From the point of view of production, printing and distribution, it would be a considerable expense -- especially if more than one company wanted the option. Modifying the front page for a very short run, even in these digital days, is not something you want to do. You'd charge a lot for it, certainly more than the company could hope to get back by spotting employee theft... it'd be cheaper, easier and less hassle for the airlines to employ a minimum-wage teenager with a "Compliments of..." rubber stamp!
And has anyone heard of anyone being nabbed this way, or seen a barcode reader sitting around in a managerial office?
Sorry -- sounds like an urban legend to me. But if anyone wants to know for sure, just buy a paper from Smiths on the same day, and compare barcodes...
As for the general ethos of handing out spare sausages to cold and hungry drivers... I would hope that any company that respected its employees, especially those in positions of responsibility such as cabin or flight crew, would let them make such decisions.
R
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Well at least BRISTOLRE now has the answer to his question about the delays.
Regarding the newspapers, yes they are marked, but not by the barcode. However, this is to prevent them being diverted to the local newsagents before ever reaching the aircraft, rather than to prevent their individual theft.
Airclues
Regarding the newspapers, yes they are marked, but not by the barcode. However, this is to prevent them being diverted to the local newsagents before ever reaching the aircraft, rather than to prevent their individual theft.
Airclues
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An eternal issue, impossible to get right in big companies I think.
In ours we've recently had a crackdown on the customary "drink in the crewbus if the bus ride's a long one". Debatable certainly. Some Captains enforce the rule, some ignore it. Same with pursers; the whole thing now requires a lot of tact from all concerned and leaves the FA's pretty confused and more likely to hide a few beers in their bag, rather than bring the 1 can to enjoy openly.
SOP with us is the FEs raiding the crew food trolley as soon as they get on board after the pax have left. No one bats an eyelid, why should we? The guys run from AC to AC all day and if they want something to eat, be our guest. SOP as well to offer all and sundry coming aboard before take-off a cup of freshly brewed coffee. Never known a GE, a Policeman or a ground staffer to refuse one yet.
Baggage handlers do me the favour of handing up baby strollers through the catering door so I can make the pax happy. They don't need to go out of their way to do that, but they always cheerfully oblige. Should I refuse them a few cokes on a hot day? No way!
Arguably it's all theft. Equally arguably it greases the wheels of the whole operation as Pandora states, and consequently saves the company money in the end.
SLF has it as far as I'm concerned. If the captain of the AC is trusted with all the hardware, he can be trusted to have enough judgement for this. Same goes for the Purser; the decisions we make as a matter off course during a normal day's work are a lot bigger and far reaching than coffee and sausages........
And if and when we abuse the system by not exercising good judgement, throw the book at us!
In ours we've recently had a crackdown on the customary "drink in the crewbus if the bus ride's a long one". Debatable certainly. Some Captains enforce the rule, some ignore it. Same with pursers; the whole thing now requires a lot of tact from all concerned and leaves the FA's pretty confused and more likely to hide a few beers in their bag, rather than bring the 1 can to enjoy openly.
SOP with us is the FEs raiding the crew food trolley as soon as they get on board after the pax have left. No one bats an eyelid, why should we? The guys run from AC to AC all day and if they want something to eat, be our guest. SOP as well to offer all and sundry coming aboard before take-off a cup of freshly brewed coffee. Never known a GE, a Policeman or a ground staffer to refuse one yet.
Baggage handlers do me the favour of handing up baby strollers through the catering door so I can make the pax happy. They don't need to go out of their way to do that, but they always cheerfully oblige. Should I refuse them a few cokes on a hot day? No way!
Arguably it's all theft. Equally arguably it greases the wheels of the whole operation as Pandora states, and consequently saves the company money in the end.
SLF has it as far as I'm concerned. If the captain of the AC is trusted with all the hardware, he can be trusted to have enough judgement for this. Same goes for the Purser; the decisions we make as a matter off course during a normal day's work are a lot bigger and far reaching than coffee and sausages........
And if and when we abuse the system by not exercising good judgement, throw the book at us!
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Well said Flaps - I agree with everything you say. You obviuosly have far too much common sense and intelligence to be a manager.
I think that the main problem is this management style that comes from the top - from what I have read, Skippy's past sucesses(?) have relied on bully-boy management and this is now seeping down through the ranks.
With all the new graduates in management positions, who have never worked in an operational enviroment, I fear that there will be many more 'Battles over sausages'.
I think that the main problem is this management style that comes from the top - from what I have read, Skippy's past sucesses(?) have relied on bully-boy management and this is now seeping down through the ranks.
With all the new graduates in management positions, who have never worked in an operational enviroment, I fear that there will be many more 'Battles over sausages'.
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Them'n'Us
Jet II - don't be so quick to slag off 'graduate' managers with 'no operational experience'. The whole point of bringing in such people (of which I'm one) into all industries is that we're supposed to inject a bit of energy and new ideas into fat inefficient companies like a certain UK airline.
The 'operation' isn't rocket science (which incidently I did study a bit of at Uni) and believe it or not we generally do have some pretty good common sense. The problems begin when we have to try and change sloppy work practices and obvious inefficiencies but find that decades of errosion of management power has led to changes being impossible - because the people who are supposed to be paid to do a job don't want to change. Everyone knows who runs the airline, at least at operational level, and that's the Unions. In the past they protected workers rights and ensured safety wasn't compromised - now they protect the fiddles, early traps, excessive wages and expenses and workers who've misbehaved.
Perhaps Jet II doesn't like these types of new people because they highlight these issues - I always like to ask people to think about things as if they owned the company themselves and how they would deal with these situations.
Incidently, on the sausage story, I agree it's rediculous to suspend someone for having one off an aircraft, equally rediculous to stop people having a cup of tea at what is afterall their office. I think you'll find though that the managers involved in most of these individual cases are time-served and not graduates. You may also be interested to know that those over in Waterworld are actually now less fortunate than our humble loader/dispatcher/engineer in those stakes, with no free teas...in fact should a purchasing manager have Mr. Airbus over for negotiations to try and squeeze even more millions of Euros out of him, he has to dip into his own pocket to pay for the Lattés.
My ramblings above probably haven't helped the them'n'us situation but it really frustrates me to hear people constantly having a go at the ones who actually have the guts to stick their heads up and try and sort things out.
From
G.R. Admanager
"Failed pilot, now trying to make things better on the ground, but probably going to give up soon and go work for a bank to try and make pilot wages."
The 'operation' isn't rocket science (which incidently I did study a bit of at Uni) and believe it or not we generally do have some pretty good common sense. The problems begin when we have to try and change sloppy work practices and obvious inefficiencies but find that decades of errosion of management power has led to changes being impossible - because the people who are supposed to be paid to do a job don't want to change. Everyone knows who runs the airline, at least at operational level, and that's the Unions. In the past they protected workers rights and ensured safety wasn't compromised - now they protect the fiddles, early traps, excessive wages and expenses and workers who've misbehaved.
Perhaps Jet II doesn't like these types of new people because they highlight these issues - I always like to ask people to think about things as if they owned the company themselves and how they would deal with these situations.
Incidently, on the sausage story, I agree it's rediculous to suspend someone for having one off an aircraft, equally rediculous to stop people having a cup of tea at what is afterall their office. I think you'll find though that the managers involved in most of these individual cases are time-served and not graduates. You may also be interested to know that those over in Waterworld are actually now less fortunate than our humble loader/dispatcher/engineer in those stakes, with no free teas...in fact should a purchasing manager have Mr. Airbus over for negotiations to try and squeeze even more millions of Euros out of him, he has to dip into his own pocket to pay for the Lattés.
My ramblings above probably haven't helped the them'n'us situation but it really frustrates me to hear people constantly having a go at the ones who actually have the guts to stick their heads up and try and sort things out.
From
G.R. Admanager
"Failed pilot, now trying to make things better on the ground, but probably going to give up soon and go work for a bank to try and make pilot wages."
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Well I don't know which redbrick university/polytechnic/'college of further education' you graduated from BAB2B but you ought to know how to spell ridiculous. I note with interest your quote about the failed pilot because I suspect he would also have to be a significant failure in the banking industry in order to earn pilot wages. All of my friends who went into banking have been earning much more than me for much longer, and enjoy bonuses of at least twice my annual salary.
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Excellent post BAB2B. You've done a particularly fine job of unveiling the wooly theoretical approach generally found among new 'graduate managers with no operational experience'. A few years in the field ought to be obligatory before callow youths are let lose at the managing business; thats how you learn that there's more to any organization than just financial data and job descriptions. Grey haired old doozers like me know how easy it is to cost the company tens of thousands of pounds with a wrong word, but young fools have to learn the hard way I suppose.
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Aha - a Waterworld Graduate sticks his head above the parapet
BAB2B
Well, if you got out a bit more from all your 'meetings' at Waterworld and actually found out how the operation worked you may have some better 'new ideas' - The company policy of moving managers around every couple of years means that we see these new managers come and go, all with their 'new ideas' and if you stay in the same department long enough you eventually get the same 'new ideas' come along as we had about 10 years ago.
I totally agree that the 'operation' is not rocket science - however there is no point blaming the unions for c**p management - management gets the union response it deserves.
I also don't know where you get the idea of
Were you still in school when we had Thatchers employment restructuring in the 80's?
I am perfectly happy to put forward ideas about how I would run things - however management are not interested if it doesn't agree with their own ideas. As an example, my department is overmanned in management grades by 100% - I would pay the surplus off and get rid of them. Mismanagements answer is to put them on 'projects' and keep them on the payrole.
The latest 'new idea' that we have concerns the way that mismanagement are now concerned at the low morale at some stations - rather than look at the causes (mismanagement?) we now have a proposal to give staff 'motivational' training.
I give up.
BAB2B
The whole point of bringing in such people (of which I'm one) into all industries is that we're supposed to inject a bit of energy and new ideas
I totally agree that the 'operation' is not rocket science - however there is no point blaming the unions for c**p management - management gets the union response it deserves.
I also don't know where you get the idea of
decades of errosion of management power
I am perfectly happy to put forward ideas about how I would run things - however management are not interested if it doesn't agree with their own ideas. As an example, my department is overmanned in management grades by 100% - I would pay the surplus off and get rid of them. Mismanagements answer is to put them on 'projects' and keep them on the payrole.
The latest 'new idea' that we have concerns the way that mismanagement are now concerned at the low morale at some stations - rather than look at the causes (mismanagement?) we now have a proposal to give staff 'motivational' training.
I give up.
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INTERESTING....
Interesting to see what we have now arrived at from my original posting being that of the flights all getting cut ex-T4 last Sunday.
We've had high winds, baggage containers blowing around, steps shuddering in the breeze, unions getting hot under the collar, sausages getting stolen, crew bus drivers in hot water, mis management, bad management, undergraguates, post graduates the reasons go on...
Interesting to see how my original post got this far!
Thanks
To top it all, we've got a mixed bag of unsettled weather headed our way AGAIN this weekend with 60mph winds forecast and driving rain for sure to but the mockers on any Guy Fawkes party we were hoping to attend. Watch out all at T4!
Watch out for the stange old ladies with funny hats and black cats showing up on your TCAS tonight,,,,,,
Happy Halloween
Have a safe guy fawkes night as well
We've had high winds, baggage containers blowing around, steps shuddering in the breeze, unions getting hot under the collar, sausages getting stolen, crew bus drivers in hot water, mis management, bad management, undergraguates, post graduates the reasons go on...
Interesting to see how my original post got this far!
Thanks
To top it all, we've got a mixed bag of unsettled weather headed our way AGAIN this weekend with 60mph winds forecast and driving rain for sure to but the mockers on any Guy Fawkes party we were hoping to attend. Watch out all at T4!
Watch out for the stange old ladies with funny hats and black cats showing up on your TCAS tonight,,,,,,
Happy Halloween
Have a safe guy fawkes night as well
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Right, here goes but I fully expect this to be fruitless as I expect grey haired old doozers never change their spots.
Ricky - I'm really sorry about that spelling mistake, obviously that was the most significant part of the post and you identified it really quickly...well done. For your info I went to the 4th oldest University in Britain and gained a First in Aero Engineering.
Blacksheep - I am in the 'field' and seeing first hand the problems. Granted I'm not shifting bags and stealing sausages personally but I'm in and around it daily. I don't believe in management theory I believe in common sense and a bit of logic. Is it logical to have a crew bus drop off a crew but it can't pick up the offgoing crew because the driver has to sit there on the ramp for 30 mins because it's break time? No it's not but the union agreement demands it. Does theory tell you that if you're trying to turn an aircraft around quicker it would be best to keep the crew with it? No, logic does - but can you? No - the union agreement demands 75 mins and £50 per person.
JetII - Sadly I'm not one of the Waterworlders either. I agree with you the 2 year rotations aren't good when it comes to duplicating effort, and moreover, that policy has caused the imbalance of power between the company and unions with union reps staying in positions for way longer than their management counterparts. I also agree about the 'project' managers, the soft approach to redundancy is the cause and that will stop should there be further cuts required next year. My idea of decades of errosion of management power come from the situations I see in areas like baggage where a manager can't go on to the ramp to see what the teams are doing without asking permission from the union rep. And new managers being warned by the reps that they will have them moved on in 2 weeks if they so wish. You're right I was at school thoughout Thatcher's reign (incidently I'm a few years older than a lot of those in the RHS of our Airbuses!) but I spent those years helping out in our family business, a successful small manufacturing business where you worked hard and did what you were told. My old man would have a fit if he saw what goes on in this company.
Anwyay, that's enough from me, sorry to those who still think us young bucks should just do our time like everyone else did, and apologies again to Ricky for the offensive spelling, I'll run the spell checker over this one.
BAB2B
Ricky - I'm really sorry about that spelling mistake, obviously that was the most significant part of the post and you identified it really quickly...well done. For your info I went to the 4th oldest University in Britain and gained a First in Aero Engineering.
Blacksheep - I am in the 'field' and seeing first hand the problems. Granted I'm not shifting bags and stealing sausages personally but I'm in and around it daily. I don't believe in management theory I believe in common sense and a bit of logic. Is it logical to have a crew bus drop off a crew but it can't pick up the offgoing crew because the driver has to sit there on the ramp for 30 mins because it's break time? No it's not but the union agreement demands it. Does theory tell you that if you're trying to turn an aircraft around quicker it would be best to keep the crew with it? No, logic does - but can you? No - the union agreement demands 75 mins and £50 per person.
JetII - Sadly I'm not one of the Waterworlders either. I agree with you the 2 year rotations aren't good when it comes to duplicating effort, and moreover, that policy has caused the imbalance of power between the company and unions with union reps staying in positions for way longer than their management counterparts. I also agree about the 'project' managers, the soft approach to redundancy is the cause and that will stop should there be further cuts required next year. My idea of decades of errosion of management power come from the situations I see in areas like baggage where a manager can't go on to the ramp to see what the teams are doing without asking permission from the union rep. And new managers being warned by the reps that they will have them moved on in 2 weeks if they so wish. You're right I was at school thoughout Thatcher's reign (incidently I'm a few years older than a lot of those in the RHS of our Airbuses!) but I spent those years helping out in our family business, a successful small manufacturing business where you worked hard and did what you were told. My old man would have a fit if he saw what goes on in this company.
Anwyay, that's enough from me, sorry to those who still think us young bucks should just do our time like everyone else did, and apologies again to Ricky for the offensive spelling, I'll run the spell checker over this one.
BAB2B
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BAB2B - looking through a lot of your postings, they seem to be made between the hours of 9am and 5pm, usually on weekdays...as a shareholder in your company, I'm glad to see you're using your "management" time wisely (NOT).
Delay? What delay?
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Wow donddoit, 4 out of BAB2Bs 6 posts made since 23/08/2001 have been made during normal work hours. I'm shocked at his profligacy. Have him fired forthwith!
As far as my experience with ground crews goes, (10 years with what was Europe's largest independent ground handler), the issue of whar constitutes theft from an aircraft tends to be nearly impossible to solve. The only way that I can see is to have a blanket ban on all employees taking anything (offered or otherwise) from an aircraft. But we all know that most of us will accept a cup of tea, sausage, sarnie etc when we're bl00dy freezing on the ramp waiting to push back or waiting for the bags to arrive, and I include management in that. What irritates me though is how did this guy at LHR get reported? What sort of person would do that? (maybe he or she wanted a sausage and didnt get one)
As far as my experience with ground crews goes, (10 years with what was Europe's largest independent ground handler), the issue of whar constitutes theft from an aircraft tends to be nearly impossible to solve. The only way that I can see is to have a blanket ban on all employees taking anything (offered or otherwise) from an aircraft. But we all know that most of us will accept a cup of tea, sausage, sarnie etc when we're bl00dy freezing on the ramp waiting to push back or waiting for the bags to arrive, and I include management in that. What irritates me though is how did this guy at LHR get reported? What sort of person would do that? (maybe he or she wanted a sausage and didnt get one)
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We all shouldn't be too hard on BAB2B and his using work time to post on this site - if he is 'surfing the web' at least he isn't coming up with more ways to screw the operation, perhaps all managers should take note?
As for the delays due to the weather, I was caught up in the fiasco at Eurotunnel on Monday when the tunnel was closed due to the weather and all the punters were being put on the ferries. Eurotunnel actually sent me a leaflet out with their tickets boasting about how they are immune to bad weather, unlike the ferries! So its not only BA that are prone to problems with a bit of wind.
BAB2B - I am glad that you know what it takes to run a successful business, please take some advice from someone a lot older than you - you will not get far in BA with that attitude.
As for the delays due to the weather, I was caught up in the fiasco at Eurotunnel on Monday when the tunnel was closed due to the weather and all the punters were being put on the ferries. Eurotunnel actually sent me a leaflet out with their tickets boasting about how they are immune to bad weather, unlike the ferries! So its not only BA that are prone to problems with a bit of wind.
BAB2B - I am glad that you know what it takes to run a successful business, please take some advice from someone a lot older than you - you will not get far in BA with that attitude.