BA,BACX,BALPA-Conflict of interest?
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Atropos, many thanks for that, a very sensible and unifying post.
I apologise unreservedly if I have offended the wider community with my last post - but on re-reading it, I still find nothing factually inaccurate, either about events, or HS and airrage's comments thereon.
I have heard via several sources of the awful state of the touring rosters at LGW, and the pressure being applied. My sincere sympathy. Believe me, most of us in BACX DO actually think it is on balance probably a good thing to be part of Big Airways. The trouble is the unbelievable amount of mismanagement, and sheer bad management against all advice that the BA placemen have managed to put in place. OK , thats a done deal, nothing we can do about that. Also though, and actually just as harmful, is the propaganda that Solo and airrage have been trying to sell on this and other threads. I agree that self interest always prioritises things during a merger, but those two frankly insult the intelligence by their claims of the now deceased scope clause being good for us. Enough!!
Bigpants - good post - what's all this about Eastern?
Let's move forward, and when we debate our differences, be aware that they should be our joint differences with the management, not with each other. I have several very good friends with BA, one even on the BACC - which is how I know they're mostly good guys. However, it should be admitted a mistake was made at square one, when negotiations should have centred on another CFE type deal. Again, that is the past.
I apologise unreservedly if I have offended the wider community with my last post - but on re-reading it, I still find nothing factually inaccurate, either about events, or HS and airrage's comments thereon.
I have heard via several sources of the awful state of the touring rosters at LGW, and the pressure being applied. My sincere sympathy. Believe me, most of us in BACX DO actually think it is on balance probably a good thing to be part of Big Airways. The trouble is the unbelievable amount of mismanagement, and sheer bad management against all advice that the BA placemen have managed to put in place. OK , thats a done deal, nothing we can do about that. Also though, and actually just as harmful, is the propaganda that Solo and airrage have been trying to sell on this and other threads. I agree that self interest always prioritises things during a merger, but those two frankly insult the intelligence by their claims of the now deceased scope clause being good for us. Enough!!
Bigpants - good post - what's all this about Eastern?
Let's move forward, and when we debate our differences, be aware that they should be our joint differences with the management, not with each other. I have several very good friends with BA, one even on the BACC - which is how I know they're mostly good guys. However, it should be admitted a mistake was made at square one, when negotiations should have centred on another CFE type deal. Again, that is the past.
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Lads one of the best and most informed threads I've read for ages.
Atropos - What a load of ***** - "You should be nicked for that"
On a serious note we must remember that Pilots have an agenda, Management have an agenda and that BALPA have an agenda. They are all completely different and equally mad.
1. In my opinion people should be actively recruited from BACX to BA, this would be a huge bit of good will and ensure that people wanted to join BACX in the first place. "The master list is an even bigger issue than pay" so I'm going to leave it at that.
2. BACX are moving in to previously held BA routes simply because we were to costly to operate them. If they can make a profit with 'smaller A/c good luck to them. BA I believe have made a consesssion that a few pilots can be seconded to the regions to work. A bit of a slap in the face to BACX pilots but I would imagine that the number would be reatively small and that it is an intellegent move to keep ex BRAL pilots happy
3. CFE what a nightmare situation if anyone knows how to sort this mess out answers on a post card.
But the real issue here I believe is the inflexibility that scope will bring, just look at the mess that US Airways have got themselves into with their two unions. The Rj is a nightmare and if you want to fly it then you are welcome to it. What concerns me is that if like at Gatwick the numbers wanting to fly, thanks finally to our cheap flights and internet bookings, creates a situation where we need to operate larger A/c in the regions because there is not enough capacity in the SE, then we are back to square one.
This one is going to run and run.
Atropos - What a load of ***** - "You should be nicked for that"
On a serious note we must remember that Pilots have an agenda, Management have an agenda and that BALPA have an agenda. They are all completely different and equally mad.
1. In my opinion people should be actively recruited from BACX to BA, this would be a huge bit of good will and ensure that people wanted to join BACX in the first place. "The master list is an even bigger issue than pay" so I'm going to leave it at that.
2. BACX are moving in to previously held BA routes simply because we were to costly to operate them. If they can make a profit with 'smaller A/c good luck to them. BA I believe have made a consesssion that a few pilots can be seconded to the regions to work. A bit of a slap in the face to BACX pilots but I would imagine that the number would be reatively small and that it is an intellegent move to keep ex BRAL pilots happy
3. CFE what a nightmare situation if anyone knows how to sort this mess out answers on a post card.
But the real issue here I believe is the inflexibility that scope will bring, just look at the mess that US Airways have got themselves into with their two unions. The Rj is a nightmare and if you want to fly it then you are welcome to it. What concerns me is that if like at Gatwick the numbers wanting to fly, thanks finally to our cheap flights and internet bookings, creates a situation where we need to operate larger A/c in the regions because there is not enough capacity in the SE, then we are back to square one.
This one is going to run and run.
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Suggs - Thank You
Suggs - thank you.
Again, a sensible, logical, and 'big picture' response to what is rapidly becoming an 'out of hand' problem.
I don't pretend I think there any simple answers, but at least the concept that there are BA guys who think like us, and who see our point of view and most of all, don't sound like they are patronising us, is most welcome.
Absolutely right Suggs, and the only person to point out the INFLEXIBILITY of scope.
That said, DO bear in mind we really would like to do a 'CFE'. and get onto the master seniority list, even though the Ts and Cs are likely to make some of us worse off.
I won't even try to rephrase what you have said Suggs, because you have said it so well. Thank you matey.
Again, a sensible, logical, and 'big picture' response to what is rapidly becoming an 'out of hand' problem.
I don't pretend I think there any simple answers, but at least the concept that there are BA guys who think like us, and who see our point of view and most of all, don't sound like they are patronising us, is most welcome.
Absolutely right Suggs, and the only person to point out the INFLEXIBILITY of scope.
That said, DO bear in mind we really would like to do a 'CFE'. and get onto the master seniority list, even though the Ts and Cs are likely to make some of us worse off.
I won't even try to rephrase what you have said Suggs, because you have said it so well. Thank you matey.
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Yep, I can go with all of that. Trouble is that we are not all breathing the same oxygen.
A good ex-CFE mate, who is sick of all the BACC machinations, has cut and pasted the following to me, apparently part of an anti-BACX diatribe on the BA BALPA website. Seems we at BACX are being blamed for it all, most specially the horrendous rostering that the poor guys doing rosters on the RJ out of Birm and Man are getting.
QUOTE:
"The regional operation has been a dogs dinner for some time. This has been caused by complexity and poor management whilst integrating BRAL and Brymon
into BACX. They have been cancelling services and wet leasing to fill the gaps for months. This has no direct linkage with the arrival of the RJ100.
The impact on the passengers and overall perception of BA has been considerable. If it wasn't so serious, it would almost be funny!"
UNQUOTE
And we are supposed to work with the likes of this?????? Mind you, I can see the funny side, some of it is actually true, a direct result of our new integrated management system, run by you know who - Mr de la Farce!!!
A good ex-CFE mate, who is sick of all the BACC machinations, has cut and pasted the following to me, apparently part of an anti-BACX diatribe on the BA BALPA website. Seems we at BACX are being blamed for it all, most specially the horrendous rostering that the poor guys doing rosters on the RJ out of Birm and Man are getting.
QUOTE:
"The regional operation has been a dogs dinner for some time. This has been caused by complexity and poor management whilst integrating BRAL and Brymon
into BACX. They have been cancelling services and wet leasing to fill the gaps for months. This has no direct linkage with the arrival of the RJ100.
The impact on the passengers and overall perception of BA has been considerable. If it wasn't so serious, it would almost be funny!"
UNQUOTE
And we are supposed to work with the likes of this?????? Mind you, I can see the funny side, some of it is actually true, a direct result of our new integrated management system, run by you know who - Mr de la Farce!!!
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James Thin,
Your good mate cut and pasted OK but that was a quote from someone, quoted by someone else for someone else's information I wouldn't read too much into it! BACX is certainly not being blamed for the situation that the RJ crews are in, our own scheduling department are perfectly capable of making a complete balls up of that on their own thank you! I know lets see, who's company can make the bigger balls up, I bet ours are better than yours .
I have done a bit more research into what has been going on and it seems that the waters are muddier than at first appears. Meetings have not been running that smoothly and it is not just the fault of the BACC! Basically no one is blameless in this, the negotiations rumble on, meanwhile we seem to be spending time and energy slagging each other off. I wish I had a crystal ball, I'd love to know how it all ends!
Your good mate cut and pasted OK but that was a quote from someone, quoted by someone else for someone else's information I wouldn't read too much into it! BACX is certainly not being blamed for the situation that the RJ crews are in, our own scheduling department are perfectly capable of making a complete balls up of that on their own thank you! I know lets see, who's company can make the bigger balls up, I bet ours are better than yours
.I have done a bit more research into what has been going on and it seems that the waters are muddier than at first appears. Meetings have not been running that smoothly and it is not just the fault of the BACC! Basically no one is blameless in this, the negotiations rumble on, meanwhile we seem to be spending time and energy slagging each other off. I wish I had a crystal ball, I'd love to know how it all ends!
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James Thin is actually right about the horrendous situation with flight cancellations. The blame falls squarely with our MD on that one though. A while ago a letter was posted to all BACX employees from our MD apologising for all the disruptions caused by flight cancellations due in most part to a lack of forward planning on cabin crew recruitment. Things are getting back to "normal" again, slowly, but you still see the odd Titan/Flightline 146. Nowhere near as much as before though.
There was a little conspiracy theory being put about that the company was able to SAVE money by chartering out to Titan/Flightline, thats why it went on so long. It was good for engineering too to have the down time on the aircraft. I couldn't possibly comment...(well go on then) if that was the case then hey, why not sack all flight crew, sell all the aircraft and charter out every single flight, in fact, better still lets just liquidate everything and not run an airline at all.... Save a fortune!
There was a little conspiracy theory being put about that the company was able to SAVE money by chartering out to Titan/Flightline, thats why it went on so long. It was good for engineering too to have the down time on the aircraft. I couldn't possibly comment...(well go on then) if that was the case then hey, why not sack all flight crew, sell all the aircraft and charter out every single flight, in fact, better still lets just liquidate everything and not run an airline at all.... Save a fortune!
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Cold Soak,
" why not sack all flight crew, sell all the aircraft and charter out every single flight, in fact, better still lets just liquidate everything and not run an airline at all.... Save a fortune!"
Ha Ha. This is BA management's strategy and has been for a few years now. You see it has nothing to do with expensive BA Pilots, they've all retired to the countryside. This is a problem for all outfits no matter how small or inexpensive the flight crew, there will always be another outfit there ready to jump on the bandwagon(Eastern Europe Pilots next) resulting in wages resembling a death sprial. This is why Scope was started in the first place. Damn Accountants.
PS. I agree the current Scope agreement presented to BACX is unacceptable, Prop Pilots discriminated against. Even though BA put that clause in, BA management are having a laugh if the think it will be accepted.
" why not sack all flight crew, sell all the aircraft and charter out every single flight, in fact, better still lets just liquidate everything and not run an airline at all.... Save a fortune!"
Ha Ha. This is BA management's strategy and has been for a few years now. You see it has nothing to do with expensive BA Pilots, they've all retired to the countryside. This is a problem for all outfits no matter how small or inexpensive the flight crew, there will always be another outfit there ready to jump on the bandwagon(Eastern Europe Pilots next) resulting in wages resembling a death sprial. This is why Scope was started in the first place. Damn Accountants.
PS. I agree the current Scope agreement presented to BACX is unacceptable, Prop Pilots discriminated against. Even though BA put that clause in, BA management are having a laugh if the think it will be accepted.
Last edited by airrage; 9th Oct 2002 at 10:21.
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Itwasn't pilots who screwed up Enron, it wasn't pilots who screwed up Arthur Andersen, it wasn't pilots who screwed up Marconi, it wasn't pilots who screwed up Airtours, it wasn't pilots responsible for all the current profit warnings, IT WAS BL00DY ACCOUNTANTS!!!!
I'm sick of the implicit management based propaganda which seems to insist that if we just give up our breakfasts with hotac, if we just surrender on duty pay, if we just accept a small pay cut, if we......blah blah blah.
Meanwhile, the craven, incompetent bunglers continue at the top of so many Companies move on with their latest 'bung' a fat cash payout, usually running into millions, for FAILING!!!!!
There should be a standard management base check - but then, the bar stewards are in charge of their own terms and conditions. They make me want to vomit.
I'm sick of the implicit management based propaganda which seems to insist that if we just give up our breakfasts with hotac, if we just surrender on duty pay, if we just accept a small pay cut, if we......blah blah blah.
Meanwhile, the craven, incompetent bunglers continue at the top of so many Companies move on with their latest 'bung' a fat cash payout, usually running into millions, for FAILING!!!!!
There should be a standard management base check - but then, the bar stewards are in charge of their own terms and conditions. They make me want to vomit.
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BA management claim they can't afford Pilots Pay, but meanwhile a trust fund set-up for the managers Longterm Incentive Plan now holds 7million BA shares. HMMMMM, anyone know the number of a good accountant.
