KAL's next crash, just around the corner?
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Blueball. .. .The most experienced guy still crashes. May I bring to your attention to the Springbok 707 which crashed near Windhoek on climb out on 20 April 1968 killing 123 of 128 because the “elder” skipper was unable to read his panel – even while wearing his glasses.
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I have to agree with N380UA. We're all humans and never stop making mistakes. Experience doesn't garantee anything... unfortunately.. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />
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Spam In a Can:. .. .I hope the rumour is not true.. .. .However, I would like to ask you a Question.... .. .1. How can you tell if the flap is at 3 & 7 ??. .. .2. Are you sure you are a pilot?. .. .I hope you are not a airline pilot. Because you are also a dangerous pilot who doesn't know anything about the system of the aircraft.
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I think you will find the 747-400 has several computer systems, monitoring 'events'. If not the FDR then the AIMS. Which will give you readouts of such events as I have stated. I think you will find that in my original post that I stated that the flaps were travelling to the take-off setting.. .Yes I am a pilot, almost 16,000 hours in my log book atest to this!
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N380UA,. .. .<<the “elder” skipper was unable to read his panel – even while wearing his glasses.>>. .. .Surely that particular has more to do the Captain's A.M.E. than the individual himself. I should have thought that it goes without saying that any pilots recruited for a particular airline will have reasonable vision, regardless of age.. .. .Regards. .Exeng
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spam in a can:. .. .What are you trying to tell us ?. .. .Are you trying to tell us that you don't even have the read out?. .. .Are you trying to tell us that you don't exactly know what happened ?. .. .Oh boy.... .. .I feel bad that Korean Air had so many bad accidents and the accident can happen to any one of us. But spreading the rumour that you don't even know is very dangerous.. .. .I or anybody can spread roumours that is not true.. .. .If the incident really took place, I would like to see the proof. . .. .And if you don't, you are trully a one experienced pilot .
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Yes you are quite correct. But then the checklists are routinely carried out without checking the actions have been taken. As this case proves. Which is another reason that there will be another catastrophe.
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Further to the above reply asking for information as to why KAL is still having problems. Two points:. .. .1. After a series of accidents involving Eastern airlines about 6 years ago, a study was done on attitudes in the cockpit, taking samples from all over the world. The survey was simple, and asked a question, exclusively to first and second officers. The question was this:. .. .If you had the choice of flying into the side of a mountain, or telling your Captain they are wrong, which would you choose?. .. .Among F/O's and S/O's that were products of eastern culture and training, and who were flying with Eastern airlines, 74 percent chose the mountain.. .. .Among F/O's and S/O's of other cultures worldwide, or pilots of any decent flying with airlines outside of the East, zero percent chose the mountain. . .. .Scares me to death.. .. .Second, I have personally witnessed the effects of this unusual attitude (the Captain is GOD) as I watched the COMING of the CAPTAIN onboard a KAL 747 getting ready for departure. . .. .All the flight attendants lined up and bowed and scraped as the F/O and S/O boarded the A/C. Then they joined the line and all bowed and scraped to the Captain as he (and it's always a he) swaggered up to the cockpit. . .. .Nice CRM.. .. .Having said that, I know someone who took the 5 year buy-in to be one of the occidental grey-hairs at the helm of a KAL '47.. .He made the mistake of asking his F/O to fly the approach into Anchorage, as the F/O was up for promotion to Captain in a few weeks after 12 years with the company.. . .. .The F/O outright missed 5 consecutive clearences to get lower. And in making up for the last one, sent the plane into freefall. The captain took control on final, when it was clear his F/O had no idea how high or how hot he was. They stopped with 50 yards of runway remaining. . .. .On asking his F/O how the hell he could fly that badly, he replied that in his 12 years, he had been offered the controls six times, and landed twiice.Four weeks later he was a Captain.. .. .Flying for KAL in the left seat is essentially like flying single-pilot IFR in a heavy. Always.. .. .The service is nice, but it comes with a heavy price. . .. .Fly safe.
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Spam in a Can and friends,. .. .This sort of slanging away at an airline is very unprofessional and shows very clearly that your attitudes are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Life’s too short. Don’t stay with your old destructive attitudes….turn over a new leaf now and contribute instead of mocking.. .. .Do you know what hubris means? I don’t have my Pocket Oxford with me right now but Microsoft tells me it means : . .. .1. Excessive pride or arrogance. .. .2. The excessive pride and ambition that usually leads to the downfall of a hero in classical tragedy. .. .Let’s not kid ourselves. There isn’t an airline in the world that hasn’t had it’s share of real and “nearly” accidents. Go to any of the accident/incident websites and you’ll see lists that would make your hair stand on end if you didn’t know, as we all should, that there is a vast amount of goodwill and resources in most serious airlines (including Asian ones) devoted to learning from past problems. . .. ._ It wasn’t a Korean carrier that nearly took out some significant hills near SFO a little while ago after an engine failure on a 744.. .. ._ It wasn’t a Korean 757 whose crew talked about all manner of things as they winged their way to sudden mountain top death on descent into Columbia.. .. ._ It wasn’t a Korean carrier that sent an MD-80 off the end of a Little Rock runway in the midst of thunderstorms. .. ._ It wasn’t a Korean captain who ignored a call from his F/E: “Did he not clear the runway-that Pan American?” These were the last words of KLM 747 Flight Engineer William Schreuder. Moments later his aircraft collided with a Pan American 747 still on the runway at Tenerife. The accident was the worst in aviation history.. .. ._ It wasn’t a Korean crew who flew the first 330 glider into the Azores after managing to dump useable fuel overboard. .. ._ It wasn’t a Korean carrier that nearly had their Operator’s Certificate revoked after maintenance so poor that an MD-80 horizontal stabilizer came off in flight in California. .. ._ It wasn’t a Korean crew who conducted a classic “high and fast” approach leading to a landing that ended near a gas station on a Burbank road. .. ._ It wasn’t a Korean crew who destroyed a perfectly good MD-11 freighter in a landing accident at Boston. .. ._ It wasn’t a Korean Captain who tried to abort a go-round in a 744 at Bangkok and destroyed a perfectly good aircraft.. .. ._ It wasn’t a Korean F/O who shut down both engines on a 767 out of Hilo while cross-feeding.. .. .And the sad and bloody list goes on…... .. .Be very careful that the sin of hubris doesn’t catch you out. The above accidents and incidents all happened to large, very reputable carriers and I’m sure they had a few pilots too who thought that they were a cut above the rest of the world. If my grey hair has taught me anything it’s that anytime you feel that sort of superior thinking coming on, double check everything because something bad is about to happen.. .. .There are few airlines in the world doing as much as KAL (or making as much progress) to build a future based on an understanding of past problems. If “Spam in a Can” is serious about building flight safety (instead of knocking the significant progress made by Korean) then he should start using his undoubted CRM capabilities in the cockpit to ensure that the crews he flies with get the benefit of his vast experience.. .. .As you may well have the honour of being of British descent…may I remind you that but a few short years back as time goes, it was a bunch of your well educated, military trained aviation forebears who, rather than speak up, died in the R101 airship disaster. You might say…”Well the British have changed”…and well they might have. Just don’t get in the way of others who are learning from their mistakes.. .. .Spam in a Can, if you want any help with understanding how to turn over a new leaf and support whichever Asian airline pays your bills, send me an e-mail any time ([email protected]) and we can discuss your positive and happier future. I am always happy for my family to travel KAL. They’re in good hands. . .. .Safe flying. .. .Viastra.. .. .p.s. A few comments on the stuff just in from Spiral Diver.. .. .1. KAL don’t have Second Officers. .. .2. The crew don’t bow and scrape to the Captain…all Koreans bow to each other on first meeting formally. It‘s called politeness. (See Pocket Oxford Dictionary). .. .3. I have never, ever, ever, ever seen a Korean national Captain “swagger” on board. A few foreigners do though. . .. .4. Yes, all Captains should all have the humility of, for example, a BA Captain…some fall short though. Sorry.. .. .5. When a plane hits a mountain with a “western First Officer” who had his mouth clamped shut or didn’t see it coming (e.g. AAL at Columbia, DanAir at the Canaries, UAL (nearly!) at SFO) is the impact softer than with an “eastern F/O”? If it comes to that…why do Western F/Os vote one way, but fly another. Or have all the ones who might ever have flown into a ountain already done it?. .. .6. Does the Qantas F/O at Bangkok get kudos for staying quiet as a westerner rather than staying quiet as an easterner might have done? . .. .7. Will the Asian airlines who have expended vast resources to address the CRM issue ever get any credit for honest effort…or is it better to never, ever admit you have a problem. . .. .8. Lets have some ethnic cleansing here and now. Hands up all airlines who have ever had any problem with maintenance, power structures in the cockpit, high terrain, pride and CRM. OK…all those with their hands up leave the building now and stop carrying passengers. All the others…well I wouldn’t fly with them anyway if they have such a slender grasp of reality.
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While Viastra certainly makes some good points, one should also mention that in his narrative, he has compiled quite a list of different airlines. KAL is only one of the Asian carriers that has a rather abysmal safety record and KAL, when taken alone, has had a hull loss about every two to three years in recent times.. .. .Now, we can turn this into something, ethnic cleansing, which it is not, but it is perhaps cultural. We can maybe agree to, that the face loosing concept has no meaning or purpose in the airline industry.Everyone, from the "lowest" ramprat to the "mightiest" captain has a voice and one that, in the interest of safety, needs to be heard when spoken, without the fear of reprisal or ridicule. Does such a system exist at KAL? Recent discussion both here and in other forums does indicate, that is not the case. Further, there are also indications, again from this forum and others, that this attitude is prevalent all the way to the top.. .. .As Viastra has mentioned, KAL is recognizing that there is a problem and is actively trying to change the company culture, but a few classes in CRM is not enough to change, what appears to be a serious issue and it would heed aviation entities well, to keep a very close watch on KAL and for them to be willing to force change, should such not happen in a most timely fashion.
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Viastra's comments are accurate, but out of context...the above mentioned incidents are isolated and occurred at several different carriers, the point of this thread is the incidents at KAL, while not extraordinary when compared with the incidents at north american carriers, are a result of corporate/social culture, as opposed to the mistake of aan individual flightcrew....the burbank crew are sacked, the cali/littlerock crew are deceased/ the result of the hearing if any into the take-off config incident would be interesting..if it indeed occurred...(good grief)
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Diesel8 and Ironbutt57. .. .Thanks for your support of some of my points.. .. .For a glimpse of what you might find if you saw the whole picture of what really happens inside a carrier that is addressing the future, not just that which is seen from within the walls of this forum please be assured that KAL has done far, far more than "a few CRM classes" to address the "speak up" CRM issue. If any of the critics work at KAL and haven’t noticed the changes…then you truly are part of a far bigger problem than the supposed “Eastern Culture” problem. You’re part of the “We are superior” problem. And that, sadly, is very, very entrenched in not a few mindsets.. .. .Get out a bit more often and see what’s happening, not just from a computer screen. No airline in the world matches up to your lofty “ everyone will speak up without fear or favour” ideal. Does any company? Enron? Firestone? As I said, look at Qantas and the Bangkok 744 accident. I’ll bet they said they measured up to your standards but when it came to the crunch (literally) they didn’t. But they’ll learn. Hopefully most carriers are doing their level best. As I tried to point out before, the 500 odd people killed in the Tenerife accident would presumably take no joy from the fact that their (also dead) captain was an aberration and that in fact most KLM captains would have listened.. .. .Then comes the comment: . .. . “the result of the hearing if any into the take-off config incident would be interesting..if it indeed occurred...(good grief)”. .. .Good grief indeed! Where the heck do you get off assuming that there wouldn’t be a thorough, well documented appraisal of what went wrong and how it happened? Cover ups might be a well documented and entrenched part of modern western culture but they aren’t part of 2002 life at KAL. How good is your airline’s FOQA program? Did you read yesterday that several of the perpetrators of the Twin Towers horror were flagged as suspicious by airport security then let on board? As was the shoe bomber on AAL out of Paris? Now that’s really thin management at work. Do you think we’ll ever hear: “the results of the hearing if it indeed occurred (good grief)” That’s the biggest aviation disaster in history and yet you remain fixated on Asia. . .. .And just to reassure you, aviation authorities have been monitoring change, and KAL has responded in substance, not just style. I’m sorry that Delta, Air France, the US DOD and DOT, etc etc didn’t ask for your advice. But their web sites are easily found and you can I’m sure pass your pearls on for their edification.. .. .Since recorded history began, one rule has always proven true. “Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall” So be careful. In aviation, the high moral ground has a habit of being very rocky and just a few feet inside that fluffy cumulus you’re dancing around while revelling in your superiority over Asians.. .. .Safe flying.. .. .Viastra.
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Forget the sensitive, new-age politically correct cr@p. It is about time someone told it like it is.. .Spiraldiver made only one mistake when he said "Flying for KAL in the left seat is essentially like flying single-pilot IFR in a heavy. Always." - he forgot to mention there is a saboteur sitting next to the captain. Believe me. I've been there and it was the most frightening period of my flying career. Don't start me on their SOPs...... .Apply rudder trim on B747 for takeoff or landing if crosswind exists.. .FO to push full forward yoke immediately on touchdown so captain can grab nosewheel steering at 120kts.. .Not that any of this was actually in the ops manual. Just that the fleet manager Capt Park/Kim/Lee thought it was a good idea, so everyone did it and nobody would ever dare suggest that maybe he was wrong. Individually very nice people, but their culture is not designed for operating aircraft. (the cross-cockpit authority gradient springs to mind). .I remember a conversation I had with a KAL FO just after the crash at Guam. "Now will you speak up if you see the captain making a mistake?" . ."Yes sir, but only if he is expat captain.". .Another conversation springs to mind.. .After asking FO why he said he would like to fly with expat captains more often the reply was "Because you do not yell at us or hit us like Korean captain".. .True! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />
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Viastra,. .. .I would believe your word over the FAA oversight, AF and Delta.. .. .Delta is reeling from 9/11 and there for will seek any means neccesary to increase profit. In the case of the feds, it is high stake politics and I am sure there was quite a bit of pressure on them by "diplomats".. .. .As far as AF, no clue what their motivation is??
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This is only one of many threads which have touched on the subject of Asian Captains. The upshot of them all is that there should be no place for arrogant pride in any seat up front.. .If you were to take a poll of pilots nationality versus crashes caused by pilot error then it would be no surprise to find out that the safest pilots are Australian. One single reason is that they are not afraid to admit to mistakes and they have no requirement to "save face".. .It is time to create an international standard for pilots and have an international board of competancy run by the UN to which all airline pilots would have to be tested and certified before they could take up any position.. . . . <small>[ 06 March 2002, 10:50: Message edited by: sirwa69 ]</small>
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Viastra: . .. .The point is not whether the ground is softer for some than for others. And I did not say KAL has S/O's. I said the questions were presented to a statistically significant sample of pilots throughout the world. And some of them were S/O's. . .. .You seem to have missed the intent of the question. I hope this was on purpose, because if it wasn't that is very telling in itself. In case you did miss something, I'll spell it out for you. . .. .The question implied two things:. .. .1. Foreknowlege of the rapidly approaching ground on the part of the F/O or S/O.. .. .2. That the Captain in each case believed there was no ground approaching, but was wrong. . .. .3. That action could be taken to avoid a CFIT accident, but would involve a specific type of cockpit communication to do this. Namely; informing that they are in Captain error.. .. .By simply listing scenes of carnage from around the world and opining on the relative softness of the ground there encountered, you obfuscate the issue. And that issue is this: . .. .In some parts of the world there is a large and statistically significant increase in the chances that a particular flight crew would rather stay silent and die (and thereby kill everyone aboard) than speak up in emergent cases of avoidable CFIT. The extension of this is that it is not limited to CFIT occasions, but would apply to all occasions requiring this type of communication. . .. .I did not say that it doesn't happen elsewhere. I said the cultural paradigm elsewhere reduces the chances of it happening. There is a difference which, again, I hope you are willfully not noticing. . .. .In relating my story of the Coming of the KAL Captain, I was simply relating my observations of the effects of that cultural paradigm. You suggest it was just politeness and that I am in error in my interpretation. I suggest it points to an inherent and dangerously insidious attitude, grounded in thousands of years of cultural development , which does not in any way translate into a viable cockpit environment. That same "polite" behavior has deadly effects on CRM. . . . .Now, I won't go into a debate on the relative merits of all the occasions you listed, but you can take AAL in Columbia off the list. Bad PDM, CRM, loss of SA, yes. The F/O's foreknowlege of the oncoming mountain? No. Read the transcript. . .. .I am glad to hear KAL is working hard to change. I hope they succeed. It will be a long and uphill battle. And get this part right; this is not an attack on any culture or people. It is a commentary on relative cultural attitudes and their effects on CRM and PDM in the cockpit. The ongoing dialogue on the issue stands to make everyone safer. . .. .Fly Safe.. .. .PS- ( sry, can't resist) I was there, and he swaggered.
