KAL's next crash, just around the corner?
 

Firstly apologies for this posting as this is fact and neither KAL bashing nor rumours.. .A B747-400 taking off from Auckland to Fiji commenced it's take-off roll without setting the flaps. The take-off config warning alerted the crew, but they did not stop.(F/O was PF)The F/O was shouting at the Captain to stop but he wouldn't. Instead they selected flaps to 20 degrees during the roll. The flaps only reached 3 degrees by Vr. By 100 feet they had only reached 7 degrees. The only reason they didn't crash was probably because the aircraft was light. When the F/O was asked why he didn't initiate a reject, it was because the ops manual states only the Captain can initiate a rejected take-off. Unbelievably this is the second time this has happened this year.. .Also last week an airbus A300-600 registered 2.4g on landing obviously damaging the undercarriage.. .There have also been several GPWS incidents such as the B747-400 which was on the approach into Manila which descended so low it had a GPWS warning for 16 seconds, but it took the crew 10 seconds before initiating a recovery manoeuver.. .Or the Airbus which initiated a descent instead of a climb as it generated a GPWS warning. Then the crew climbed over the ridge prior to descending down the otherside.. .Or how about the 737 which had a tailstrike on landing. The crew didn't notice the damage on the transit walkround, and flew another sector. . .Or the B747-200 which had part of the trailing edge flap detatch and impact the fuselage, as the crew selected 10 degrees of flap at 1000ft, but at a speed way in excess of the flap limit speed.. .Last month 12 pilots failed their recurrent checks.. .But I read that KAL are codesharing again with Delta and Air France, because they are adequately addressing their safety record, what a joke!. .Next time you see a KAL 747 fly over the M25 on take-off, look to see where the flaps are, because one day.......

What are KAL doing flying Auckland-Fiji in a 400? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

I thought that the 744 (in common with most airliners nowadays) had a system which prevented the setting of t/o power if the flaps/slats had not been set at all? Surely there must have been some system which would have told him to stop? And although this was a relatively short flight, surely there would have been a heavy crew on board, for the onward flight to ICN; what were they doing?

You are right there is a take-off configuration warning system which activates the master warning system and provides an aural alert. But the crew unbelievably chose to ignore it, this warning system would have been sounding throughout the take-off roll, yet they still continued.. .The flight operates from Auckland to Nandi (Fiji) and then onto Seoul. The scary thing is, you or your family could be on board the next one and might not be so lucky. Things are better in KAL as I've whitnessed over the last three years. But they are still not good enough and every sector with a local at the controls whilst you're a passenger is a white knuckle ride. Just ask for other pilots own experiences, they are both unbelievable and shocking. KAL should not be allowed to get away with this terrible low standard of operation anymore. I think that Air France and Delta have either been hoodwinked or it's a political decision to codeshare.

A few facts:. .. .First, it's not only KAL who have experienced this recently. Some much better respected carriers are also worried about these issues at present.. .. .Second, for the benefit of akerosid, the system only provides an alert, it does nothing to 'prevent' take-off.. .. .Third, some aircraft have a wide range of flap settings available, for example flap 1 for a normal take-off and flap 15 for a short field. Most (all?) aircraft alerting systems do not check only that the flaps are not up, not that the correct flap setting has been deployed. This really isn't good enough. Bear in mind that there are significant human factors concerns over flap mis-setting. Usually, it must be said, you'll get airborne by the end of the strip, so long as you've got some flap down.. .. .Fourth, (as if it was needed), this is further proof that a two pilot flight deck, in which one pilot is disqualified from taking certain actions, or decisions, is downright dangerous. Regulators who require two pilots in the flight deck should legislate to ensure that they are both doing a worthwhile job. The FO in the incident mentioned, was not.. .. .Spam is right - it's only a matter of where, not if.. .. .Ironically, I can't help feeling that this is one area where press intervention could do some good - anyone from the local papers near Heathrow reading this?

Thanks Northern Sky; I knew the warning system wouldn't physically prevent the aircraft from departing, but thought the blaring aural warning would suggest that this might not be altogether a wise thing. . .. .However, you mention this wasn't the only airline involved? Who else . . .

'Naming names' would cause me immense grief, I'm sorry to say. That aside, my point is more that there is probably a lot more of this going on than anyone admits, and when the large aluminium death tube hits your house, the last thing to affect the damage it does, is what's painted on the tail.. .. .Whilst we're on the topic of audio warnings, might I mention Mr Boeing's wonderful horn? The same continuous tone is used for takeoff configuration alert as for high cabin altitude. The crews will occasionally hear the tone on the ground when they put the thrust levers forward. They should never hear it in the air. Thus, they 'learn' that the horn is ONLY the takeoff configuration warning, and they forget about its role in warning of high cabin altitude.. .. .How many crews have sat there, wondering why the takeoff configuration warning is going off in the cruise?. .. .Of course, if you don't get your oxygen mask on PDQ, you won't make any more errors.

Reminds me the <a href="http://aviation-safety.net/database/1999/990831-0.htm" target="_blank">B737 LAPA</a> crash in Buenos Aires where they also forgot the flaps.. .. .Except that in that case you can hear the warning horn all the way 'til the CVR stops. 63 people died.. .. .Is CRM part of the Skyteam audit ?

Worth mentioning that one recent event involved an aircraft with a U/S configuration warning. (Major carrier, 737-200, in the UK).

Oops! I didn't realise you were with me that day NorthernSky - did I feel a prat when I finally worked out what that horn was trying to tell me..... . . . <small>[ 03 March 2002, 21:18: Message edited by: luddite ]</small>

Ah, no, Luddite. My interest in and knowledge of this specific issue remains purely theoretical.. .. .Someone else perhaps - and they didn't know either!!!???

12 Feb 2000, 757 heavy landing at El Salvador, same crew flies same aircraft back to Atlanta, line engineeers notice "buckled" fuselage, aircraft nevertheless despatched to LAX, line engineers also see buckled fuselage - further investigation reveals "bent and fractured" structural members in nosegear well. Now who was that, oh yes, that was Delta Air Lines.

Well, according to news sources, KAL has filed for anti trust immunity with the US DOJ, to expand their pacific flying. Further, after review by the FAA and Delta, KAL's safety status has been restored.. .. .Flight Safety has apparently taught them how to operate in a safer manner, including CRM.. .. .But, if the rumours and incidences listed here are. .true, then another crash does seem to be coming sooner rather than later.. .. .Algy, I think you need to review KAL's saftey record, 11 majors incidents or accidents in less than ten years and those are only the big ones. Almost all airlines has a safety record better than that, including so called third world airlines.

spam in a can,. .. ."The only reason they didn't crash was probably because the aircraft was light.". .. .Well, to me, the only reason they didn't crash is because God is great and immense and also because He's a member of SKYPASS, KAL's frequent flyers program.. .. .Cheers,

I used to work the ramp before I got my wings, and we had the KAL ground contract in YVR. . .. .Their 747's would regularly come in with the entire cargo hold configured improperly. No locks up. The whole pile of containers and pallets sliding back and forth, back and forth.. .. .It usually took a while to reconfigure for departure, so they always ran a little late. And when it started to look like they would miss the ontime dep., a hoard of Korean managers (8-10) would climb into the hold and start pulling at locks. Finding that they could't do anything to speed up the process, they would start to run in circles (no mean feat in the belly of a '47) shouting:. .. ."Put-in ,shut door, Put-in, shut door". .. .At which time we would tell them to leave or we would never sign off their departure.. .. .I see the competence extends right up to the cockpit. Could'nt pay me to fly on them.

Just to add to the above; there was a silly article in the FT today, saying that they hadn't had a crash for 2 years and were over their safety fears thanks to new training from Flight Safety! I don't think so.. .. .To think Delta and Air France code share and put pax onto these flights! Crazy.

Hey, I feel privileged - we flew LON / SEL/ Nandi/ AKL and return last autumn and enjoyed the experience.

I don't know what is wrong with a KAL 747 taking off without flaps. Another airline, based just south of Korea, demonstrated few weeks ago that the A-340 can take off, with almost full weight, from a taxiway. They have also taken off without flaps and slats in the A-300 ignoring F/O and aurall warnings, they have flown the A-340 in final app. with landing configuration and TOGA power (not in missapproach) thus exceeding all limiting speeds. They have landed in the wrong runways, etc,etc,etc. The only thing they have not done is Crash again, but........ .. .Could there be any kind of competition between this two Airlines? I mean, to see which one is more lucky.. .Both Airlines have spent an obscene amount of money (which would be welcome in some other Airlines with economical problems) trying to improve their safety with new SOPs, CRM courses, English classes, technical meetings, etc, etc. But, yes, but something is still missing. If any of you guys know the answer, please let them know.. .Have in mind that one of this days you or someone close can buy a ticket with DL and get the ride of their live in a KAL airplane. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Not fair, both airlines are really trying their best to raise the standards, you should give them credit where credit is due. For example, both airlines have cut the salary of their foreign pilots. This must surely raise morale and show the locals that they are making progress.

Yellow Dust, you really are safety orient-ated aren't you!