Guns in Cockpit (Various)
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Guns in Cockpit Test Approved - AP
Like the locked cockpit door and drug testing, if this goes through in the U.S., it will likely filter over to the UK. I'm not really crazy about the idea myself but a lot of my coworkers want to bring their guns to work.
Don't shoot the messenger...
_________________________________________________
Bush Administration Plans Test Program of Guns in Cockpit
By Scott Lindlaw Associated Press Writer
Published: Sep 4, 2002
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Bush administration plans to adopt a small-scale test program of arming commercial pilots, reversing its previous opposition to guns in the cockpit.
The administration is modeling its plan after similar proposals that circulated in Congress this summer. One such plan would have armed as many as 1,400 pilots, about 2 percent of those flying.
One government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the administration was on the brink of announcing the decision.
Transportation Undersecretary John Magaw, who headed the new Transportation Security Administration until July, said in May he would not allow pilots to carry guns. Reinforced cockpits and armed air marshals provide enough protection against terrorists who try to take over an airplane, Magaw said.
"The responsibility of the pilot is to control the aircraft," Magaw said. "The use of firearms aboard a U.S. aircraft must be limited to those thoroughly trained members of law enforcement. Our position is make that cockpit as safe as we can, control that plane and get it on the ground."
Having thousands of armed pilots in airports would mean thousands of weapons that could fall into the wrong hands, Magaw said at the time. "We just don't want to subject the transportation system to additional firearms," he said.
But the House in July voted 310-113 to allow commercial pilots to carry guns, giving the proposal momentum, and Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta said soon afterward that he was re-examining the issue.
The administration is striving to reach a compromise between two camps - those who strongly oppose arming pilots, arguing, as Magaw did, that the government has already strengthened cockpit doors, bolstered airport security and is adding air marshals - and those who want all pilots armed, a government official said. NBC first reported the administration plan Wednesday night.
The airlines generally opposed plans to arm pilots, while the pilots' union and the National Rifle Association backed such proposals.
It wasn't clear Wednesday night how the government would decide whether to expand the program.
AP-ES-09-04-02 2016EDT
___________________________________________
Of course, the strident flight attendant union, AFA, has already branded guns in the cockpit as sexist:
"...in one of the most blatant displays of sexism perpetrated by a Congressional Committee in decades, the third crucial component, protecting the passengers and cabin crew in the event a terrorist attack, has been completely ignored.
“The Arming Pilots against Terrorism Act, marked up by the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee today, once again gives further protection to the 99 percent male pilot workforce. Yet, House Committee Members refuse to support an amendment by Rep. Steve Horn (R-CA) that would adopt the same comprehensive approach to aircraft security that is detailed in the much more thorough Senate bill.
“The Senate cabin defense program, which would require all carriers to provide the 85 percent female flight attendant workforce with the training and tools necessary to lead the fight against terrorism in the aircraft and protect themselves and their passengers, has been neutered.
http://www.afanet.org/PressReleases/..._guns_bill.htm
Don't shoot the messenger...
_________________________________________________
Bush Administration Plans Test Program of Guns in Cockpit
By Scott Lindlaw Associated Press Writer
Published: Sep 4, 2002
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Bush administration plans to adopt a small-scale test program of arming commercial pilots, reversing its previous opposition to guns in the cockpit.
The administration is modeling its plan after similar proposals that circulated in Congress this summer. One such plan would have armed as many as 1,400 pilots, about 2 percent of those flying.
One government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the administration was on the brink of announcing the decision.
Transportation Undersecretary John Magaw, who headed the new Transportation Security Administration until July, said in May he would not allow pilots to carry guns. Reinforced cockpits and armed air marshals provide enough protection against terrorists who try to take over an airplane, Magaw said.
"The responsibility of the pilot is to control the aircraft," Magaw said. "The use of firearms aboard a U.S. aircraft must be limited to those thoroughly trained members of law enforcement. Our position is make that cockpit as safe as we can, control that plane and get it on the ground."
Having thousands of armed pilots in airports would mean thousands of weapons that could fall into the wrong hands, Magaw said at the time. "We just don't want to subject the transportation system to additional firearms," he said.
But the House in July voted 310-113 to allow commercial pilots to carry guns, giving the proposal momentum, and Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta said soon afterward that he was re-examining the issue.
The administration is striving to reach a compromise between two camps - those who strongly oppose arming pilots, arguing, as Magaw did, that the government has already strengthened cockpit doors, bolstered airport security and is adding air marshals - and those who want all pilots armed, a government official said. NBC first reported the administration plan Wednesday night.
The airlines generally opposed plans to arm pilots, while the pilots' union and the National Rifle Association backed such proposals.
It wasn't clear Wednesday night how the government would decide whether to expand the program.
AP-ES-09-04-02 2016EDT
___________________________________________
Of course, the strident flight attendant union, AFA, has already branded guns in the cockpit as sexist:
"...in one of the most blatant displays of sexism perpetrated by a Congressional Committee in decades, the third crucial component, protecting the passengers and cabin crew in the event a terrorist attack, has been completely ignored.
“The Arming Pilots against Terrorism Act, marked up by the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee today, once again gives further protection to the 99 percent male pilot workforce. Yet, House Committee Members refuse to support an amendment by Rep. Steve Horn (R-CA) that would adopt the same comprehensive approach to aircraft security that is detailed in the much more thorough Senate bill.
“The Senate cabin defense program, which would require all carriers to provide the 85 percent female flight attendant workforce with the training and tools necessary to lead the fight against terrorism in the aircraft and protect themselves and their passengers, has been neutered.
http://www.afanet.org/PressReleases/..._guns_bill.htm
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I have been told it is due to American legislation that I have to eat my cereal at work with a plastic spoon, and yet it will be OK for me to fly into the land of the free with a gun in my flight bag?
Let's look at it another way. My dear old mum on the jump seat is considered a breach of security but me with a gun isn't.
How about tweezers? Apparently I am supposed to develop the Brooke Shields look while on a long trip. Maybe I could just blow my hairy brows away instead of plucking them out?
And another thing. There have been a lot of tales recently of flight bags being stolen from supposedly secure areas. Pilots have lost wallets, passports and company and airside ID. Yep, things even get taken from the aircraft. How long do you think these guns will remain with their rightful owner for?
Let's look at it another way. My dear old mum on the jump seat is considered a breach of security but me with a gun isn't.
How about tweezers? Apparently I am supposed to develop the Brooke Shields look while on a long trip. Maybe I could just blow my hairy brows away instead of plucking them out?
And another thing. There have been a lot of tales recently of flight bags being stolen from supposedly secure areas. Pilots have lost wallets, passports and company and airside ID. Yep, things even get taken from the aircraft. How long do you think these guns will remain with their rightful owner for?
Last edited by Pandora; 5th Sep 2002 at 09:22.
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Kaos,
Stun guns have been examined here is video of a LIVE fire test of stun guns inside an aircraft. Pretty useless if you ask me. Police don't use em unless they already have 6 guns pointed at the guy.
Cheers
Wino
Stun guns have been examined here is video of a LIVE fire test of stun guns inside an aircraft. Pretty useless if you ask me. Police don't use em unless they already have 6 guns pointed at the guy.
Cheers
Wino
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Should just arrest all the idiot journolists trying it on. Notice the 'gun' in today's evening standard was a plastic toy gun, wrapped in a box. Obviously not going to show up as a hard metal outline then is it?
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Ah... Pandora (why do I get images of Adrian Mole springing to mind every time I hear that name?) the woes of having to suffer the "Brooke look"! 
How do you cope?
Valid question re stolen property though. This rash of spinal reflex "thinking" has got to stop somewhere....doesn't it?
Guess you could always have one of the f/a's bite pull out your extra follicles with their teeth, if that doesn't work, give me a call, I'm sure I'lll be able to think of something
How do you cope?Valid question re stolen property though. This rash of spinal reflex "thinking" has got to stop somewhere....doesn't it?
Guess you could always have one of the f/a's bite pull out your extra follicles with their teeth, if that doesn't work, give me a call, I'm sure I'lll be able to think of something
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US Senate passes guns-in-cockpit bill
From CNN (21:42 UTC)
"Senate passes guns-in-cockpit bill, 87-6; House had passed version earlier. Details to come. "
"Senate passes guns-in-cockpit bill, 87-6; House had passed version earlier. Details to come. "
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What I love about this topic is the total irrationality of the arguments that are so passionately put forward. One US politician's comment today.
"If a group of terrorists broke into the cockpit they might be able to take the pilot's gun away." Of course, completely losing sight of the fact that if a group of terrorists broke into the cockpit stealing the pilot's gun would be the least of the problems they created. Stupid!
"If a group of terrorists broke into the cockpit they might be able to take the pilot's gun away." Of course, completely losing sight of the fact that if a group of terrorists broke into the cockpit stealing the pilot's gun would be the least of the problems they created. Stupid!
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What intrigues me about this is the characterization of it as a 'trial'.
I wonder what the success criteria are. Perhaps...
The trial is a success if all the following are true:
a) No member of a flight crew blows a hole in the airplane
b) No member of a flight crew accidentally shoots himself
c) No member of a flight crew shoots another member
d) No member of a flight crew shoots a passenger
e) No firefights between flight crews and air marshals occur
f) No member of a flight crew blows the head off a screener for confiscating his Leatherman
g) A flight crew succeeds in facilitating a meeting between a terrorist and the 72 virgins....
Well, that's my mind well and truly boggled.
I wonder what the success criteria are. Perhaps...
The trial is a success if all the following are true:
a) No member of a flight crew blows a hole in the airplane
b) No member of a flight crew accidentally shoots himself
c) No member of a flight crew shoots another member
d) No member of a flight crew shoots a passenger
e) No firefights between flight crews and air marshals occur
f) No member of a flight crew blows the head off a screener for confiscating his Leatherman
g) A flight crew succeeds in facilitating a meeting between a terrorist and the 72 virgins....
Well, that's my mind well and truly boggled.
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I thought you neutered cats not defense programmes. So in the land of the neurotics the cabin crew think they should be 'tooled up' (no fellas not that tool). Pandora is right, we have lost it!!
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Today we have flight crews in the US being stopped for possessing nail clippers - now with an impending new law, they will be able to carry hand guns onto the a/c??? Imagine the security screeners faces when the same person they confiscated a nail clipper from two weeks earlier now returns with a .357...and is allowed through.
As mentioned in previous posts, theft is going to be an issue and what about crews dead heading??? OK, so maybe they'll have to introduce more elaborate identification techniques such as biometric scanning, however for US crews travelling internationally, what are they going to do when going through security or better still, commuting on another carrier? And out of uniform...
I'm just amazed at how the apparent "world's leading country" can be so backward when it comes to aircraft security. With all the money being spent on enhanced pax screening and reinforced cockpit doors, surely its better not to have ANY gun on an a/c. And from recent reports, any person even remotely attempting to unlawfully enter the flight deck is being pounded by concerned pax before being “restrained”.
I can see the accident report now...flight crew bored, were showing each other their weapons when one of the guns accidentally discharged, fatally wounding one crew member and puncturing the fuselage, leading to a rapid de-pressurisation...(now think about the possible outcomes). No matter what the rules will say, I have no doubt there will be some pilots on longer segments that will want to talk about/show-off their "piece".
Of course, not growing up in a country where it is a "right" to bear arms has no doubt affected my sense of normality. Then again, what’s the crime rate in the US with guns vs a country like Australia?
In my opinion, not the greatest saftey measure to be put forward.
As mentioned in previous posts, theft is going to be an issue and what about crews dead heading??? OK, so maybe they'll have to introduce more elaborate identification techniques such as biometric scanning, however for US crews travelling internationally, what are they going to do when going through security or better still, commuting on another carrier? And out of uniform...
I'm just amazed at how the apparent "world's leading country" can be so backward when it comes to aircraft security. With all the money being spent on enhanced pax screening and reinforced cockpit doors, surely its better not to have ANY gun on an a/c. And from recent reports, any person even remotely attempting to unlawfully enter the flight deck is being pounded by concerned pax before being “restrained”.
I can see the accident report now...flight crew bored, were showing each other their weapons when one of the guns accidentally discharged, fatally wounding one crew member and puncturing the fuselage, leading to a rapid de-pressurisation...(now think about the possible outcomes). No matter what the rules will say, I have no doubt there will be some pilots on longer segments that will want to talk about/show-off their "piece".
Of course, not growing up in a country where it is a "right" to bear arms has no doubt affected my sense of normality. Then again, what’s the crime rate in the US with guns vs a country like Australia?
In my opinion, not the greatest saftey measure to be put forward.
Last edited by DomeAir; 6th Sep 2002 at 06:31.
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But don't you all see? It makes perfect sense. Remember it all comes down to statistics. Let's face it, the likelyhood of a person bringing a gun on board is statistically very low. The likelyhood of two people bringing a gun on board at the same time is approaching a statistical impossibility. Furthermore, three bringing a gun onboard will happen once every billion years or so. Therefore, by both pilots bringing a gun onboard, they are preserving the safety of the aircraft as no-one will bring another gun onboard until the flight-deck is commanded by Captain James T. Kirk. 
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I can't remember the article exactly - it was about a month ago. The article was about the causes of deaths of British soldiers in Afghanistan,and may be out of date now. However at the time the article was written, 6 British soldiers had been killed. 3 by our friends the Americans, 1 in a bizarre gun training exercise, and 2 in an argument who had pulled their guns on each other and shot each other simultaneously. None by the enemy.
Now these people are psychometrically tested for their suitability to carry weapons as part of their job before they get the job. They are trained in their use on a daily basis and are well practised in the carrying of arms. They are on the front line of a war. So let's take a little look at the verdict. Of all British soldiers on the front line;
1. Three were killed accidently by Yanks in unspecified circumstances of friendly fire. Do we really trust this country?
2. One accidental death by gun. Accidents happen. Do we want one happening over the Atlantic on the flight deck of an aircraft with over 400 pax?
3. Two deaths due to angry isolated men having an argument. I can just see it now; "I want the chicken. you have the smelly fish." "No, I want the chicken." Bang.
4. Pilots already have their jobs. Will there be retrospective testing for the suitability of each individual to cary guns? What will hapen to those deemed not up to it?
5. Will the carrying of guns be compulsory? If it isn't will pax refuse to fly if their pilot is/ isn't carrying one?
I don't know the answer to the problem, but it would appear the people who are pushing this through haven't got a clue either. Until there is a spark of intelligence evident from the people in charge, I will remain sceptical.
Now these people are psychometrically tested for their suitability to carry weapons as part of their job before they get the job. They are trained in their use on a daily basis and are well practised in the carrying of arms. They are on the front line of a war. So let's take a little look at the verdict. Of all British soldiers on the front line;
1. Three were killed accidently by Yanks in unspecified circumstances of friendly fire. Do we really trust this country?
2. One accidental death by gun. Accidents happen. Do we want one happening over the Atlantic on the flight deck of an aircraft with over 400 pax?
3. Two deaths due to angry isolated men having an argument. I can just see it now; "I want the chicken. you have the smelly fish." "No, I want the chicken." Bang.
4. Pilots already have their jobs. Will there be retrospective testing for the suitability of each individual to cary guns? What will hapen to those deemed not up to it?
5. Will the carrying of guns be compulsory? If it isn't will pax refuse to fly if their pilot is/ isn't carrying one?
I don't know the answer to the problem, but it would appear the people who are pushing this through haven't got a clue either. Until there is a spark of intelligence evident from the people in charge, I will remain sceptical.
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Why don't we issue a gun to every passenger as they board? That way we're all equal. Any potential terrorist no longer has any advantage and knows that he's outnumbered by an equally well armed opposition........
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Diesel; since 9/11 pax have seen a certain crash seems the only option today, they won't need guns to jump into action, remember the UA93 heroes......
Or is it all a CIA conspiracy: http://www.geocities.com/subliminals...ion/olson.html
TacP.ASOK
Or is it all a CIA conspiracy: http://www.geocities.com/subliminals...ion/olson.html
TacP.ASOK
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Squawk 7777,
Senator Brewers horse is dead !
Senator Brewer's dead ? Who told you that ?
I got it from the horses mouth !
Sentor Brewer's a Horse ?
No! Senator Brewer's not a horse.
Senator Brewer's got a horse ?
No Senator Brewers "Horse" is dead...........
Pandora ,
as far as I am aware Joe Squaddie is not Psychometrically tested.
DomeAir, good post.
Dead heading crews ... hmmmmmm...not their own airline.....hmmmmm ...airline uniforms freely available along with Fake ID's... de boyes fram d falls an d shankhill wud fairly rattle yer bollox just !
But then again all our friends on board from the sub continent could protect us from the ensueing carnage with their Kirpans !!!
Shaakin aal together.
Senator Brewers horse is dead !
Senator Brewer's dead ? Who told you that ?
I got it from the horses mouth !
Sentor Brewer's a Horse ?
No! Senator Brewer's not a horse.
Senator Brewer's got a horse ?
No Senator Brewers "Horse" is dead...........
Pandora ,
as far as I am aware Joe Squaddie is not Psychometrically tested.
DomeAir, good post.
Dead heading crews ... hmmmmmm...not their own airline.....hmmmmm ...airline uniforms freely available along with Fake ID's... de boyes fram d falls an d shankhill wud fairly rattle yer bollox just !
But then again all our friends on board from the sub continent could protect us from the ensueing carnage with their Kirpans !!!
Shaakin aal together.
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Given that the US arm their custom's bureaucrats I don't
understand the problem you seem to be having with
armed pilots...I know who I would trust more!
-- Andrew
understand the problem you seem to be having with
armed pilots...I know who I would trust more!
-- Andrew