Guns in Cockpit (Various)
Join Date: May 2002
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This is an excellent thread with some very good posts. I must say I agree with those against the carriage of weapons by pilots, other than those weapons they were born with. Just what you need is a fire fight in an enclosed space in a pressurised cigar tube (aluminium one or worse) about 37 000 feet from good old terror firmer. There are other non-lethal weapons available other than stun guns. Once again this is a knee jerk reaction from the idiots who purport to run the world. Terrifying in their stupidity and arrogance they are. I mean pollies not septic tanks, before you start attacking. Anyway, this would mean yet another 'test' for pilots. Surely we would have to prove we could care for our new babies and actually point them at least in the vague direction of a target. In my experience most pilots would fail that. No anecdotes, but from my experience a pilot with a gun is only a threat to himself and his friends. Scary thought.
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You just know that this is all going to lead to a ghastly accident at some point. An over-reaction to a minor incident, the pilot decides to play "safe" and unlocks the gun...fill in the blanks yourself...some passenger ends up dead. Even with no terrorist in sight.
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Saturday, September 07, 2002
Pilots welcome gun option
Group confident of law's passage
By James Pilcher, [email protected]
The Cincinnati Enquirer
Now that Congress has overwhelmingly approved allowing commercial airline pilots to carry guns, advocates say armed pilots could be flying by early next year.
“It's a done deal now,” Anderson Township airline pilot Marc Feigenblatt said Friday. Mr. Feigenblatt is vice chairman of the Airline Pilots Security Alliance, a group of pilots which has fought for the right to be armed on duty. “We could have a bill signed within a couple of weeks and have armed pilots by early next year.”
The Senate voted Thursday 87-6 to allow guns in the cockpit. The House
passed an almost identical bill 310-113 on July 10. The only obstacle now is a veto by President Bush, whose administration initially opposed the idea but has since softened.
Mr. Feigenblatt and others don't think a veto is likely because the Senate version was attached to a homeland security bill that the White House is trying to get passed.
A previous aviation security law, passed in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks, allows for guns in cockpits, but only with the approval of the airline and by the head of the Transportation Security Administration. This new legislation would remove those barriers.
Administration officials have previously come out against arming pilots, but Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta recently asked for a review of the issue.
White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said Friday that many issues still need to be worked out, such as where guns are stored, and how airlines would handle the absence of pilots for firearms training. The Transportation Security Administration has raised similar concerns.
Still, “the president understands Congress's intent here (and) wants to work with Congress to provide this safety to passengers,” Mr. Fleischer said.
The Senate and House versions call for a voluntary program that would turn pilots into federal officers who would use the guns only as a last resort if the cockpit were under attack.
Those who volunteer and pass a rigorous background check would undergo federal training. The federal government also would pay for the guns.
The transportation administration estimates the program could cost up to $900 million.
Not all airline pilots endorse the idea, including Susanne Dortch of Mount Lookout, who said a gun would make the cockpit an even more tempting target.
“It would just make us more vulnerable,” Ms. Dortch said.
Airlines also remain opposed to the idea, even though both versions of the bill provide liability exemptions for pilots and airlines. Top executives of the nation's largest domestic carriers — including Delta Air Lines' chairman and chief executive officer Leo Mullin — sent a letter to every senator earlier this week raising safety concerns.
“How often are firearms utilized by trained law enforcement officers lost, misplaced, stolen, fired accidentally or used against the officer carrying the weapon?” he asked in the letter.
But Mr. Feigenblatt said he's confident that all the issues can be resolved.
Pilots welcome gun option
Group confident of law's passage
By James Pilcher, [email protected]
The Cincinnati Enquirer
Now that Congress has overwhelmingly approved allowing commercial airline pilots to carry guns, advocates say armed pilots could be flying by early next year.
“It's a done deal now,” Anderson Township airline pilot Marc Feigenblatt said Friday. Mr. Feigenblatt is vice chairman of the Airline Pilots Security Alliance, a group of pilots which has fought for the right to be armed on duty. “We could have a bill signed within a couple of weeks and have armed pilots by early next year.”
The Senate voted Thursday 87-6 to allow guns in the cockpit. The House
passed an almost identical bill 310-113 on July 10. The only obstacle now is a veto by President Bush, whose administration initially opposed the idea but has since softened.
Mr. Feigenblatt and others don't think a veto is likely because the Senate version was attached to a homeland security bill that the White House is trying to get passed.
A previous aviation security law, passed in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks, allows for guns in cockpits, but only with the approval of the airline and by the head of the Transportation Security Administration. This new legislation would remove those barriers.
Administration officials have previously come out against arming pilots, but Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta recently asked for a review of the issue.
White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said Friday that many issues still need to be worked out, such as where guns are stored, and how airlines would handle the absence of pilots for firearms training. The Transportation Security Administration has raised similar concerns.
Still, “the president understands Congress's intent here (and) wants to work with Congress to provide this safety to passengers,” Mr. Fleischer said.
The Senate and House versions call for a voluntary program that would turn pilots into federal officers who would use the guns only as a last resort if the cockpit were under attack.
Those who volunteer and pass a rigorous background check would undergo federal training. The federal government also would pay for the guns.
The transportation administration estimates the program could cost up to $900 million.
Not all airline pilots endorse the idea, including Susanne Dortch of Mount Lookout, who said a gun would make the cockpit an even more tempting target.
“It would just make us more vulnerable,” Ms. Dortch said.
Airlines also remain opposed to the idea, even though both versions of the bill provide liability exemptions for pilots and airlines. Top executives of the nation's largest domestic carriers — including Delta Air Lines' chairman and chief executive officer Leo Mullin — sent a letter to every senator earlier this week raising safety concerns.
“How often are firearms utilized by trained law enforcement officers lost, misplaced, stolen, fired accidentally or used against the officer carrying the weapon?” he asked in the letter.
But Mr. Feigenblatt said he's confident that all the issues can be resolved.
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A Royal Marine once said that only two things frightened him; an officer with a map and a sailor with a rifle.
For "sailor" and "rifle", read "pilot" and "handgun". I think the argument is still valid.
For "sailor" and "rifle", read "pilot" and "handgun". I think the argument is still valid.
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pilots and guns
if pilots and indeed cabin crew wish to carry guns why dont they join the military? or if they dont wish to do that why not make them do a firearms handling course at least that might reduce the chances of an nd. on a final note i was under the impression that the sky marshals ammunition was less powerful than normal ammo is this true?
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Canberra, many of the US pilots are in the military.
Some, as I am, have also become part time police officers in addition to flying.
Sky Marshals have started showing up on some of my flights. At first they wouldn't talk about their armament, but some have showed me their clips........bullets appear to be .40 Cal, and are standard issue, no reduced charges.
When I was a cop we called them Black Talons. They are black painted hollowpoints that have grooves down the outside so they split into a star on entry.
Because of that, they grew notorious in the medical profession for the wound channels they create.
Then the color was dropped they were renamed Silvertips, and it's what most cops use today, although some cops have the first two rounds ball ammunition in case they have to shoot thru a car door.
Training will be required.
There is a humorous .wav file floating around about a cockpit pa describing how the crew is armed today. If anyone can tell me where I can post it for your consumption, I will.
Some, as I am, have also become part time police officers in addition to flying.
Sky Marshals have started showing up on some of my flights. At first they wouldn't talk about their armament, but some have showed me their clips........bullets appear to be .40 Cal, and are standard issue, no reduced charges.
When I was a cop we called them Black Talons. They are black painted hollowpoints that have grooves down the outside so they split into a star on entry.
Because of that, they grew notorious in the medical profession for the wound channels they create.
Then the color was dropped they were renamed Silvertips, and it's what most cops use today, although some cops have the first two rounds ball ammunition in case they have to shoot thru a car door.
Training will be required.
There is a humorous .wav file floating around about a cockpit pa describing how the crew is armed today. If anyone can tell me where I can post it for your consumption, I will.
Whatever happens,.. happens!
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I was also totally opposed to having Guns on the flightdeck.
I have changed my mind only because I couldn't stand the thought of having to make ATC aware that I had a (potential or real) hijacking or terrorist situation on board and while we are trying to deal with the situation (if that was possible) someone in a F-16 is lining up to shoot me down, because we happen to be heading in the general direction of a critical target. At least with a Gun I have one more very deadly means at my disposal to postpone meeting my maker.
I am not sure how this Gun issue can be handled safely, I'd hate to be the one supplying some a**hole with a gun due to inattention or negligence on my part, if that should happen, the F-16 scenario would be preferable.
I have changed my mind only because I couldn't stand the thought of having to make ATC aware that I had a (potential or real) hijacking or terrorist situation on board and while we are trying to deal with the situation (if that was possible) someone in a F-16 is lining up to shoot me down, because we happen to be heading in the general direction of a critical target. At least with a Gun I have one more very deadly means at my disposal to postpone meeting my maker.
I am not sure how this Gun issue can be handled safely, I'd hate to be the one supplying some a**hole with a gun due to inattention or negligence on my part, if that should happen, the F-16 scenario would be preferable.
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in the states a large proportion of the public have guns for personal protection...these are not criminals/drug dealers bad people etc etc.plus they actually know how to use them.
i reckon the way to go is sky marshalls.one in the jump seat and more in the cabin.the main reason this is not happening is cost....how much do you think another repeat of 9/11 would cost the airline industry?and while your at it why not let the pilots have one as well.we have to deter these guys somehow and as long as they perceive our ground security to be suspect,which appears to be the case, they will continue to attack us.
the head of security at Baa admits that only 90 pct of 'generated'
guns are spotted by screening staff at major uk airports, the explanation given is that we are only human...great...with each x- ray machine having at least 1 spoof gun generated every 20 minutes 24 hrs a day.do the maths yourself.this is a serious problem.
this reminds me of the old argument against arming our police forces...sounds great but in reality the bad guys have a field day!
wake up and smell the coffee..we need positive action and fast.
i reckon the way to go is sky marshalls.one in the jump seat and more in the cabin.the main reason this is not happening is cost....how much do you think another repeat of 9/11 would cost the airline industry?and while your at it why not let the pilots have one as well.we have to deter these guys somehow and as long as they perceive our ground security to be suspect,which appears to be the case, they will continue to attack us.
the head of security at Baa admits that only 90 pct of 'generated'
guns are spotted by screening staff at major uk airports, the explanation given is that we are only human...great...with each x- ray machine having at least 1 spoof gun generated every 20 minutes 24 hrs a day.do the maths yourself.this is a serious problem.
this reminds me of the old argument against arming our police forces...sounds great but in reality the bad guys have a field day!
wake up and smell the coffee..we need positive action and fast.
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I am 33, live in Wales and I have NEVER even seen a gun. I dont know anyone that owns a gun and for my personal protection I use a high pitched scream and fast running shoes. 
The point of this post is........em...dunno.
Maybe I should move from the Welsh Hills to London,, then again maybe not.
Walt,,
Hang on there is a point. Guns Aint The Answer. Make everyone board the flight naked and not allow any luggage on board. Then tie everyone to the seat and not release them until safely back at the gate at the destination.
The point of this post is........em...dunno.
Maybe I should move from the Welsh Hills to London,, then again maybe not.
Walt,,
Hang on there is a point. Guns Aint The Answer. Make everyone board the flight naked and not allow any luggage on board. Then tie everyone to the seat and not release them until safely back at the gate at the destination.
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ok, so you are on a flight from cardiff to civilisation with your pet sheep,and a terrorist pops up..whaddya do?
a: run up and down the aisle screaming.
b: set the sheep lose to do his thing.
c: leave it those horrible men with the guns.
d: ask the audience.
a: run up and down the aisle screaming.
b: set the sheep lose to do his thing.
c: leave it those horrible men with the guns.
d: ask the audience.
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How many terrorists and what are they armed with?
1 terrorist with a safety knife = Ripped limb from limb.
6 terrorist with sub-machine guns and hand grenades = 2 dead gun toting pilots and an out of control plane.
1 terrorist with a safety knife = Ripped limb from limb.
6 terrorist with sub-machine guns and hand grenades = 2 dead gun toting pilots and an out of control plane.
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There are a lot of operational problems to be ironed out but non of them are insoluble, many already have a working precedent.
For example, Air Marshals must have an approved procedure for securing their firearms between flights, pilots should use the same procedure. Many armed passengers of various organisations fly on our aircraft each day (for example, the other day I had and armed Housing and Urban Development officer on board). There is no reason why armed pilots should operate under any more stringent rules than applied to these other armed passengers.
There will be at least two other restrictions imposed on armed pilots. First, no firearms on international flights. Second, no alcohol AT ALL , ANYTIME, THE WHOLE TIME AWAY ON DUTY whilst possessing a firearm. As a practical matter, the carrying of firearms by pilots will be used as a means of reducing the need for hiring many more air marshals. The government will save money in the end. The air marshals "freed up" by pilots carrying firearms will then be assigned to the uncovered international flights.
The present ideas imply that pilots will be trained and then given federal officer status. This status solves most of the difficulties associated with the carriage and use of a firearm. Whether operating a flight or dead-heading makes no difference. A pilot wishing to board an aircraft with a firearm will need to go through the same indentification and documentation as any other person approved to carry a firearm in flight. They would also be subject to the same restrictions as other armed passengers.
28th. You forgot a combination:
6 terrorist without firearms = 6 terrorists unable to enter cockpit because of armed pilot.
For example, Air Marshals must have an approved procedure for securing their firearms between flights, pilots should use the same procedure. Many armed passengers of various organisations fly on our aircraft each day (for example, the other day I had and armed Housing and Urban Development officer on board). There is no reason why armed pilots should operate under any more stringent rules than applied to these other armed passengers.
There will be at least two other restrictions imposed on armed pilots. First, no firearms on international flights. Second, no alcohol AT ALL , ANYTIME, THE WHOLE TIME AWAY ON DUTY whilst possessing a firearm. As a practical matter, the carrying of firearms by pilots will be used as a means of reducing the need for hiring many more air marshals. The government will save money in the end. The air marshals "freed up" by pilots carrying firearms will then be assigned to the uncovered international flights.
The present ideas imply that pilots will be trained and then given federal officer status. This status solves most of the difficulties associated with the carriage and use of a firearm. Whether operating a flight or dead-heading makes no difference. A pilot wishing to board an aircraft with a firearm will need to go through the same indentification and documentation as any other person approved to carry a firearm in flight. They would also be subject to the same restrictions as other armed passengers.
28th. You forgot a combination:
6 terrorist without firearms = 6 terrorists unable to enter cockpit because of armed pilot.
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No guns on board
Do not introduce wepons into a sterile enviroment. This includes air marshalls. If you are going to put an armed air marshall into the cabin, why not give him a high powerd automatic rifle, exterior body armour, pepper spray, gas-mask, flex-cuffs and sit him directly in front of the cockpit door facing rearward. It boggles my mind as to why we are trying to prevent, cure or deal with a situation at mach .85, flight level 350 rather than with the wheels chocked, ground power hooked up and the air bridge attatched to the aircraft. Airport screening needs to be beefed up dramatically. Screeners need to be trained, re-trained and tested continually. We need more technology to detect bombs and guns.
And we need more hands to frisk, un-pack and search.
Deal with the threat at the gate , in the airport concourse, or at the security gate, not while in-flight.
And we need more hands to frisk, un-pack and search.
Deal with the threat at the gate , in the airport concourse, or at the security gate, not while in-flight.
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The only problem is, Apollo, that many people are complaining about the system we have now. Imagine what it would be like to have ever more intrusive and time consuming inspections than the ones we have at present. Recently there was an idea, which thankfully seems to have been rejected, of feeling metal zips to ensure there was no weapon hidden behind! The airline industry does not need more reasons to discourage pax to fly.
Your idea would also inflate the already burgeoning TSA payroll. The TSA could actually buy the three major US airlines with its start up budget. This budget has not brought us security, 40% of test firearms continue to get through security screening. If a firearm can get through security the terrorists win. I know the securing arrangement on our cockpit doors would not stand up to a few rounds of FMJ 9mm. In this situation only a round going the other way will make any difference. By the way, a high power rifle in an aircraft is a REALLY stupid idea.
Yes we need better trained screeners and equipment but while weapons can still be smuggled through security and while they can still be pre-positioned on aircraft by minimally screened ground staff the armed pilot is the best back-up system. 68% of the US public agree.
Your idea would also inflate the already burgeoning TSA payroll. The TSA could actually buy the three major US airlines with its start up budget. This budget has not brought us security, 40% of test firearms continue to get through security screening. If a firearm can get through security the terrorists win. I know the securing arrangement on our cockpit doors would not stand up to a few rounds of FMJ 9mm. In this situation only a round going the other way will make any difference. By the way, a high power rifle in an aircraft is a REALLY stupid idea.
Yes we need better trained screeners and equipment but while weapons can still be smuggled through security and while they can still be pre-positioned on aircraft by minimally screened ground staff the armed pilot is the best back-up system. 68% of the US public agree.
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"28th. You forgot a combination:
6 terrorist without firearms = 6 terrorists unable to enter cockpit because of armed pilot."
Which leads to another combination. 2 dead terrorists, 2 unarmed and now dead pilots. 4 previously unarmed terrorist now armed with dead pilots guns.
Do you honestly believe that in any "god fobid" future terrorist attack that they would go aboard unarmed? They would be sat on by the fattest woman before they got 10 feet.
What about the pilots firearm training? Would it be a refresher course every 6 months shooting at bits of cardboard? Or would it be a training scenario where 6 unarmed men storm the cockpit and see how long it takes to disarm the pilots?
This is a very interesting topic with endless "what ifs".
Walt,,
6 terrorist without firearms = 6 terrorists unable to enter cockpit because of armed pilot."
Which leads to another combination. 2 dead terrorists, 2 unarmed and now dead pilots. 4 previously unarmed terrorist now armed with dead pilots guns.
Do you honestly believe that in any "god fobid" future terrorist attack that they would go aboard unarmed? They would be sat on by the fattest woman before they got 10 feet.
What about the pilots firearm training? Would it be a refresher course every 6 months shooting at bits of cardboard? Or would it be a training scenario where 6 unarmed men storm the cockpit and see how long it takes to disarm the pilots?
This is a very interesting topic with endless "what ifs".
Walt,,
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"BOING" says he had an armed Housing and Urban Developement Officer on his flight recently.
And we are arguing the toss about firearms with people who see nothing unusual about this.
Sweet Jesus/Allah/Budha/omnipresent non gender specific controlling entity!
And we are arguing the toss about firearms with people who see nothing unusual about this.
Sweet Jesus/Allah/Budha/omnipresent non gender specific controlling entity!
Last edited by HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD; 8th Sep 2002 at 14:38.
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"Violins in the Middle East", why are peoples so consumed with cultural problems over there when we have pilots with no arms. The sooner we arm the pilots, the smoother the flying!
Oh, my...!
NEVER mind...
RIP - Gildna Radner
Oh, my...!
NEVER mind...
RIP - Gildna Radner
